[Closed] On my road bike ride today, i came across a bad accident

I'd agree about the stats and anecdotes. The appearance of a few people riding fast, noisy bikes causes a disproportionate response from Joe Public. A lot of it comes down to a lack of understanding.

First time he slowed way down for a right hander, leant it in, then mid-corner he started looking down at this foot (gears?), turned too far and nearly swerved into oncoming traffic.

On a modern bike, the gears are on the left, rear brake is on the right.

If you lean over a long way you can scrape the inside peg/outside of the boot on the ground, although it takes a bit of effort (apart from on my old monkey bike!).

It sounds as if the rider in question was just out of their depth.

You're right Hora, I would just like people to keep it in perspective.

Snake's pass in the Peaks yesterday was covered with bikers of clearly mixed abilities. The section coming down from the top of the pass heading towards lady bower had 2 static police camera vans as well as 2 traffic cars and 1 motorbike. And that is only what I spotted. The thing that got me was the constant flashing of lights warning of the police presence which is good as it did slow a fair few of the riders down. I think the under cover bikes are a great idea. Have fun on a bike but to do it on a public road when busy is just daft. I read about the biker on the Vincent as I was looking on the BBC news site to find out why the air ambulance landed next to the road leading down to the Ladybower visitor centre? I'd love a motorbike to get around on but the likely hood of crashing or being wiped out by someone else is to high. I'd much rather have a "quick" car than a super fast bike.

Manson - I see lots of "good" motorbiking too - great anticipation, lots of courtesy, etc and I always allow space for bikes to pass when possible but I do think many riders think they are immune to speed laws.

And let's face it, crash in an airbagged, crumple zoned car at 50 and you have an awful lot more chance than on a bike. Once speeds get about 60ish then either will be in deep merde if they crash.

living in the north lakes sunny weekends and the bikers come out on mass. I like bikes (don't ride one over here did when abroad) what seems to be the problem on the lakes roads (apart from them being twisty and crap surfaces) is when there are severa lbikers together, the lead one overtakes so all 6 or 7 must also overtake to keep up.

I know a guy who is an ex racer and works in the safety side of the industry. His view is racing is for the track. Not heard of an accident in the laes this year yet, but no doubt there will be omre flowers on teh side of the road before summer is over. Hopefully it won't happen but if it does i hope other road users aren't killed as well.

What an eye opening thread! I think I'll sell my road bikes! What bikers fail to realise is how completely selfish their behaviour is.

I went on a cycle tour with my son (on a tag-a-long) this weekend and the road we were planning to use was closed. The only alternative was to do few miles on an A road race track! Bikes (and cars) were travelling way in excess of the speed limit. I genuinely feared for our lives!

Also the parallels drawn to MTB earlier in this thread are meaningless; if I go beyond my limits on the MTB the only person that gets hurt is ME!

the lead one overtakes so all 6 or 7 must also overtake to keep up.

I have never really understood why they go out riding in big groups like this, stop at a pub for a coke and then ride back again.

Bit like big groups of mtbers too for that matter.

When I had a bike I went out once on a group ride, hated it, worrying about all the other riders, keeping up etc, much prefered riding on my own (it was transport for me not leisure anyway)

From the Office of National Statistics:

Motorcyclist road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 6.5
Car Occupants road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 69.7

[i]In 2004, figures from the Department for Transport in the UK indicated that motorcycles have 121 deaths or serious injuries per 100 million vehicle kilometers, compared to the corresponding figure of 2.6 for motorists.[/i]

Better to run out of talent on your mountain bike...

God. I can't be bothered to read all the posts complainging about bikes.

Lets' get a few things straight -

a) It's very very easy to list exampes of bikers riding like cocks. We all know it happens, we all know that biking attracts such people (Thrill seekers) by it's very nature. And as a result these people are very easy to spot. I've seen it myself, and been appaled by their lack of skill and manners.

b) Most of us don't ride like that. Not where you can see us, at least.

c) Biking is more dangerous than riding a car, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. And that's not due to 'safety features' like airbags and traction control, it's due to education and better riding skills, a concept which is totally alien to 99.8% of car-only drivers

d) I can reel of a few car accident horror stories if you like? How many anti-car-driver rants do we see on STW, for instance? A fair few, yes?

e) The difference between a cock on a bike and a cock in car: You spot the bike more easily because it can simply get away with stuff a car cannot, for more of the time (Traffic stops cars, it doesn't stop bikes) and it's more note worthy so you remember it. And of course the predjudices that abound about motorcycles make it acceptable to slag them off

Simples 🙂

Peter - over defensive.

Traffic doesn't stop bikes - yes that's because they often overtake where there isn't strictly enough room.

I see this thread not as an anti bike rant - it's someone who witnessed a horrible accident. Several others then posted similar incidents. Of course some bikers take it as an affront to their chosen mode of transport...

Peter - over defensive.

Against this massive onslaught? I think not.

Of course some bikers take it as an affront to their chosen mode of transport...

Traffic stops cars, it doesn't stop bikes

But that's one of the key problems isn't it - bikers can weave in and out of traffic but they often don't do it in a way that doesn't make the other road users brake hard/take avoiding action, even if it's not strictly necessary.

And the other thing is that people out in their cars are more typically going somewhere. Now they may drive boy-racer style but traffic typically makes it much harder even for those willing to take the same level of risk as many bikers. Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such, ride to enjoy it which basically means going fast.

I take that as affront, as is my choice.

I'd take a motorcyclist's head making a sizeable dent in my A-pillar as an affront, personally 😐

So someone posting a motorbike death story is "ramming it down your throat" is he (or she?).

Of the very small number of bikers I know, four have died on their bikes. Another has very few bones left that aren't nailed together with metal pins.

Of the huge number of car drivers I know, only one recently died and the cops have yet to establish why but something very odd appeared to have happened (drifted into the wrong side of the road and into a petrol tanker).

So why do we know diddly squat? Is that your "argument?" We recite some stories, discuss silly riding we've seen but that makes us all ignorant?

It's your "us and them" mentality that alienates riders. I'd rather do my best to make life easier for sensible bike riders as well as for my family. Seeing a bike overtake many cars at 100 on a busy road doesn't really help the situation. Nor does getting over defensive.

Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such

OK. And you don't do that on an MTB then?

Nothing wrong with that at all.

And you're wrong BTW, more jorneys on bikes are for transport reasons, not enjoyment. Go into a big city at rush hour. Far more bikes... 🙂

I do exactly that on my mtb - as I said in my first post. Once again however, the difference is that when I get it wrong, I hurt myself, not other people. If you go out on your motorbike or in your car and take risks that stand a reasonable chance of seriously injuring other people, you're a ******. Go and book a track day if that's what you want to do.

and as to your last point, I should have made clear I was referring to the weekend/good weather situations, not commuting.

So someone posting a motorbike death story is "ramming it down your throat" is he (or she?).

Yes.

Of the very small number of bikers I know, four have died on their bikes. Another has very few bones left that aren't nailed together with metal pins.

And, of the vastly more bikers that I know than you do, most (if not all) are still alive 😉
I know a few who've had some injuries (Broken limbs, say) and one who lost a leg (Whilst nearly stationary as a car overtook a car turning into the junction he was turning into, and took his right hand side out.
I've crashed 4 times IIRC, 2 of those I rode off home, one I pushed home, one I got knocked out. I've had worse injuries on push bikes.
Your statement proves nowt, my friend. 🙂

and as to your last point, I should have made clear I was referring to the weekend/good weather situations, not commuting.

Ha! Sorry, it doesn't work like that!!! 🙂

Make a point, be proved wrong, then change the goalposts - "Oh, no, sorry. I meant something diferent. Honest"

Yeah, right.

You said this
[i]"Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such, ride to enjoy it which basically means going fast. "[/i]

No mention of time in there at all, my old mucker. If you mean something, say it. Don't try and wriggle out of it later.
How many car journeys at weekends are 'for enjoyment' then? Holidays, nights out, visiting relatives, driving to sports activities etc? Same thing. 🙂

As I said, I should have made it clearer! That's what I was thinking about and forgot to make clear. Nothing sinister in there and my point (with my added caveat) is perfectly reasonable. You can't wriggle out of it that easily 😉

Not to mention, my main point about some people being ******* makes it irrelevant.

This is a cracking argumnet, BTW, I'm loving it. All in good humour too, I hope that comes across 'cos I'm using enough bloody smileys! 😀

As I said, I should have made it clearer!

Agreed 🙂

Your statement proves nowt, my friend.

See what you're doing is making assumptions - assuming "we" don't know many bikers, assuming "we" just passed a driving test and that's it, assuming "we" have no idea of road safety and defensive driving (which can be applied to cycling).

It's basically "you're all stupid, I'm not" - well you can't (but you will) argue with stats, you can't dismiss someones anecdotal evidence then chuck some of your own in, you can't just "tune" your "facts" to suit yourself.

FYI I have never had a single crash in a car and never got any points, yet I have plenty of "fun" in my cars.

My problem with motorbikes is the sodding exhausts, i live about a mile from a long straight road and come summer all you can hear is the damm things bouncing off the rev limiters.

Most bikers I know have crashed their bikes at least once through their own fault (and in my book that includes crashing on wet roads). Most of them have never crashed their cars. Proves nothing but says a lot to me at least.

But where would be a better place to direct our ire, considering those stats of road deaths?

Vastly more people are killed by cars than by motorbikes. Yes, more people drive cars, but surely we should be trying to prevent the most possible deaths.

To do that, we should be targeting dangerous, and far more prevalent, car driving.

To do otherwise is much like police crackdowns on cyclists riding without reflectors: it is ignoring the bull rampaging through the china shop.

[img] [/img]

Get the bikers!
[img] [/img]

😉

It seems everyone who's not a biker knows loads of bikers who've been killed/maimed, but for me (only riding for nearly 40 years, with almost 30 years on the road), I've never known a biker that was killed and tbh I'm racking my brains to even think of someone I know badly injuried.

As said in an earlier (unrelated subject) post, 5 years of mtbing has caused me more injuries than nearly 30 years of biking.

I suggest banning cars (or limiting them to 8mph like invalid carriages) from all areas where there are pedestrians. A man walking in front with a red flag might solve unemployment at a stroke...

TBH people ragging powerful motorbikes around suicidally. I'd rather they ragged a motorbike around than a 1.3 ton box on shared roads.

Sounds cruel but if they are being overly reckless/risk-taking hopefully its just them. Sorry.

Sadly the road conditions, other road users can cause unfortunate fatalies of motorbikes 🙁

I witnessed one such accident. Motorbiker side-swiped by a driver doing 40mph+. I had to stand infront of him to divert/block Man Utd matchday traffic on their rush up to the grounds. Otherwise they would have bloody run into him.

See what you're doing is making assumptions

No, I'm responding directly to what people are typing. 🙂

Most bikers I know have crashed their bikes at least once through their own fault (and in my book that includes crashing on wet roads). Most of them have never crashed their cars. Proves nothing but says a lot to me at least.

I think one of mine was on a wet/greasy road, but I was not in the right frame of mind to ride a bike at the time (Seriously agitated over work) and got it all wrong. I hit a grass bank at about 40 mph. I got up and rode off. Totally my own fault.

One was on a corner I knew well, but on a new (to me) bike. I ran wide and went down on some gravel on the centre line. Own fault.

One was coming up behind a car that indicated right, I pulled in left as she went to the middle of the road and was just about to go up the inside (Perfectly OK, you'd have done it in a car) when she changed her mind pulled back in front of me. I just hit the brakes a tiny bit too hard and went down at 30mph. Technically my fault as she didn't actually hit me, but come on, WTF!!!!
Rode the bike home, couple of scratches and a broken mirror. Crash bungs on the bike saved most of the damage.

4th one I have no real idea as I was out cold and still have a 4hr blank in my life!

Cars
I've written one off in a ditch, spun twice (I was trying hard both times!!!) and had one minor knock in my own cars

Site vehicles (Land Rovers, Vans, mobile plant)
Ffffing HUNDREDS of small crashes, mostly off the road, but I did once reverse my supervisors van in a car park, just as my manager pulled out behind me, and managed to mangel both of them. That went down as his fault. 🙂

Somehow, I have full NCB on bikes and cars, and I've never made an insurance claim in in 22 years. And I'll soon have a clean license as well, despite riding bikes for 12+ years! (My last collar was in a car)

It has to be said, having access to works vehicles probably saved my skin because I could rag the spuds off them, and do silly stunts when no one was looking in the quarries. I can do J-turns and 360 degree spins when I try hard enough, and I can hold a SWB transit in a powerslide half way round a stockpile on gravel..... It's great fun, but like I say, I've done all the showing off in relative safty away from prying eyes and don't feel the need any more. I'm a 65mph in 70 limit driver in the car nowadays, and the scooter tops out at 77mph.

I only, ahem, 'make progress' whan there's nobody around. I did manage to hit the rev limiter in 6th on my Monster 696 a few times last year. Sorry. We sold our bikes late last summer (Needed the money) though.

New motorbike next year, before I get so resless I start gnawing the carpet though! 😀

Used to like Tuesday evening at Bassets Pole. Great scene, good atmosphere etc, but always some clown willing to go too far. Remember seeing a pair of such clowns wheelying from the car park down the A446 between two lanes of traffic, one on a spanking new Augusta, brings his wheelie down on the back of his mates 996'. Cars swerving, bits of expensive Italian plastic spraying all over the road etc. Thankfully neither were hurt beyond a few grazes, but what struck me was the way this pair were totally nonchulant about having just totalled £20k's worth of bikes. Like it was nothing more than a bit of a laugh. Short while later up pulls his Wife & kids in a RRover with trailer, bikes loaded on & away they go. Week later he's back, new R1 this time, up to the same tricks.
Sold my bike shortly after, found myself taking too many risks, not daft stuff but was getting faster, braver etc. I didnt have kids at the time, but seeing this chaps kids in the car & him risking his life was enough for me. Still like bikes but wouldnt ride again. Not on the road anyway.

Vastly more people are killed by cars than by motorbikes. Yes, more people drive cars, but surely we should be trying to prevent the most possible deaths.

To do that, we should be targeting dangerous, and far more prevalent, car driving.

"Vastly more" people are killed/injured by knives than by guns. Should we therefore ignore gun crime?

I ride a sportsbike with a race can (no baffle), small plate, use an iridium visor on sunny days, and ride well in excess of the NSL when I deem it safe to do so, based on nearly 30 years of riding motorbikes and police advanced training.

To many people that makes me something akin to the Antichrist.

I rather like that 🙂

Guns don't kill people, rappers do.

I'm confused now. Are rappers more insidious than bikers or not?

No offence, but the fact that you've said that means that you are actually more sensible than you think you are and are possibly just afraid of the idea.

None taken, but I actually think I probably would. I know how I drive in a fast car. I rely heavily on knowing exactly how the car will react and usually give plenty of room for mistake/observation/the unexpected, but have been known to take things a step too far in the learning curve, I'm fortunate in having picked a car that'll accept my mistakes and help me fix them and allow me to wind my neck in and reconsider how I've been tempted to get to that point. That and the fact that I would only do that in a place/time where no-one else could get involved. I'm fairly sure that I'd not have the balance and poise required to deal with pushing such limits on a crotch rocket, so to some extent through fear of my own stupidity, yes, I just avoid that option!

I must say, I'm surprised at the amount of "all bikers are barstewards" attitudes here from a group of people who are usually on the receiving end of equally unfair demographic-bashing and rash generalisations from the great unwashed.

Some motorcyclists are eejits and give the rest a bad name.
Some mountain bikers are eejits and give the rest a bad name.

Spot the parallels here? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

"Crotch rocket" - I like that 😆

Cougar - yes, but from an unbiased party with little interest in bashing anyone I can say the percentage of motorcyclists that drive like nuts is remarkably high. I actually like to help out good motorcyclists, I'll stick left to help them overtake, make sure I catch their eye in my mirrors so they know I've clocked them and they can slip in front if they like, stick at a constant speed so they can judge gaps and distances better than if I was making my way as normal, very often get a nod or a wave from them. Genuinely happy to see a fast, careful motorcyclist enjoying the sun and roads. Not happy to see someone causing me grief and writing themselves and others off.

Remember seeing a pair of such clowns wheelying from the car park down the A446 between two lanes of traffic, one on a spanking new Augusta, brings his wheelie down on the back of his mates 996'. Cars swerving, bits of expensive Italian plastic spraying all over the road etc. Thankfully neither were hurt beyond a few grazes, but what struck me was the way this pair were totally nonchulant about having just totalled £20k's worth of bikes. Like it was nothing more than a bit of a laugh

I didn't see the accident, but I did see, in Farnborough where I live a bloke who'd managed to get his 955i Dayton on TOP of a car. It was just lying there on it's side on the roof! He was breathing but injured, brobably a few broken bones. This was on a dual carrigeway (A 40mph one) so they were all going in the same direction. Lord knows how he did that....

To many people that makes me something akin to the Antichrist.

I rather like that

I must say, I'm surprised at the amount of "all bikers are barstewards" attitudes here from a group of people who are usually on the receiving end of equally unfair demographic-bashing and rash generalisations from the great unwashed.

Coffeeking > The problem there is, you're more likely to notice and remember a berk on a bike than the ten other well-behaved ones that become part of the general traffic, not drawing attention to themselves. I'd argue that the percentage of idiotic bikers isn't "remarkably high" at all (not least because of natural selection), it's a perception issue.

I've heard the same argument from pedestrians at mixed-use trail centres, talking about how "all" MTBers are a menace and should be banned from the site. Truth is, it's a couple of knuckle-draggers causing bother.

coffeeking - Member
I know how I drive in a fast car. I rely heavily on knowing exactly how the car will react and usually give plenty of room for mistake/observation/the unexpected

Do you wear a T-shirt that says,
"I'm Mad, Me!"?

I'm fairly sure that I'd not have the balance and poise required to deal with pushing such limits on a crotch rocket, so to some extent through fear of my own stupidity, yes,

Do you not think that it is exactly the same thing, with different physical limits?

It's not fear of your stupidity, it is fear of riding a motorbike -Try it and you'll realise that it isn't that scary and is much more enjoyable than most driving. All of this,
"I'm just too crazy to ride a motorbike" is just daft.

You don't *have* to overtake people on a blind bend whilst pulling a wheelie and giving the finger to oncoming traffic and you won't because you'll realise that there are limits.

Real nutters don't give a sh*t and don't consider limits, they just ride/drive. I suspect that you're not one of them.

I've been fortunate enough to do a variety of things in my life, some of which have been relatively unconventional or risky. I've rock-climbed, power-kited, fell-walked, jumped out of perfectly good aeroplanes, run long-distance; I've ridden mountain bikes, quad bikes, motorbikes, driven a variety of cars (often, ah, "enthusiastically"), I could go on.

*Without fail*, all of these activities have had one thing in common. They've always had another group of people putting down their Daily Mail just long enough to go "well, they're all lunatics, and they should be kept away from the rest of us normal people. It's ridiculous and they're a menace and should be banned immediately." I've heard this time and again from different groups, aimed at different groups, and the upshot is the same.

1) it only takes one asshat to have everyone else tarred, and
2) some people are naturally predisposed to thinking that what they do is right and every bugger else is wrong.

Having seen both sides and being, I'd like to think, about as unbiased as is possible to be, I'd like to conclude that I'm right and you're all wrong and smell. Ner.

simonfbarnes - Member

I suggest banning cars (or limiting them to 8mph like invalid carriages) from all areas where there are pedestrians. A man walking in front with a red flag might solve unemployment at a stroke...

Cougar - Member

Coffeeking > The problem there is, you're more likely to notice and remember a berk on a bike than the ten other well-behaved ones that become part of the general traffic

It seems we like to have an adversary that makes us feel better about ourselves by being superior to them, after all we never ride cheeky trails etc.
Let him without sin cast the first stone.....

Well quite.