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As a current scout leader I'm not sure if you would regard me as a potential fascist or a kiddie fiddler.
Personally I was never a fan of Ray, and his Pints with Prats thing just underlines it.
Fact is his “skills” are worthless in this modern world
I beg to differ.
He problem solves, he knows how to overcome adversity, tiredness, fear and uncertainty, he is connected to the land and nature, he communicates well (although scripted!) and connects with people while able to understand thier history and heritage, knows how to manage resources and live sustainably.
I think it's more than relevant to modern life.
Just because someone has different views to me, doesn't mean I won't work with them, listen to them or even be friends with them. 🤷♀️
As a current scout leader I’m not sure if you would regard me as a potential fascist or a kiddie fiddler.
Same here. It's nice to have the options though 🙂
but the unquestioning discipline that is demanded by both religion and the Scouts
Someone's never been to one of my Scout meetings. Just an effing tad of occasional discipline would be nice...
(Although, at the risk of getting off topic, I find the saluting the flag bit a little uncomfortable if I'm honest)
I mentioned scouts and Sunday school because they were mentioned in the bit of the interview that I saw. I went to both and didn't have any particularly negative experiences, though I'd rather they existed without the religious indoctrination and royalist/patriotic/militaristic stuff (maybe they do now?).
Just because someone has different views to me, doesn’t mean I won’t work with them, listen to them or even be friends with them.
I'm not sure anyone has actually suggested that so it's a bit of a straw man.
Being right wing is one thing though, GB News and Farage are borderline far right and he has said numerous deeply unpleasant things. If we can call Corbyn hard left Farage is definitely hard right.
So ray mears is interviewed by farage…doesn’t mean he’s endorsing him or aligning with his views, even if some of his views are aligned….we all have some element of our opinions that are aligned as we all Orr alike than we are different. It’s a paid interview and RM needs to earn an income like everyone.
This really is an bigoted view that you self sensor anyone you don’t agree with or like. Ok I wouldn’t expect people to be going out hunting farage content, but to completely censor him is ignorant and bigoted. Being informed in your political views means to understand and engage in the other arguments. You don’t need to have empathy with them. Ignoring farage and not engaging people like him in sensible, educated, informed debate is to roll out the red carpet and let them win. It is those who don’t engage or express competing and alternative opinions in a compelling way who to are 100% responsible for their success.
This really is an bigoted view that you self sensor anyone you don’t agree with or like.
Who is being censored here exactly?
Ignoring farage and not engaging people like him in sensible, educated, informed debate is to roll out the red carpet and let them win.
If the last few years have proved anything it's what a total fallacy it is that engaging people with educated opinions achieves anything.
Just an effing tad of occasional discipline would be nice
+1! It is supposed to be youth led, so if that’s what they want!
As a current scout leader I’m not sure if you would regard me as a potential fascist or a kiddie fiddler.
*Makes note in case IHN comes up in my next AAC committee*
Can’t help the feeling that for Farage at least it’s harking back to a whiter Britain where things were even more set up for people like them to get ahead, and ‘foreigners’ and the working classes knew their place
I think you have it right there except the foreigner bit. He would always be ok with his wealthy foreign friends. It's just a anyone below upper middle class.
Pretty certain scouts is multi faith, no faith, and you probably don't even need to mention God and the Queen when being invested? I could be wrong tho as it's been a while since I've helped out at a meeting.
Pretty certain scouts is multi faith, no faith, and you probably don’t even need to mention God and the Queen when being invested?
Correct. If the kid doesn't want to mention God then they don't have to.
Our lot are having a coached session on the BMX track at the NCC tonight, so I doubt that The Queen will get much of a look in either.
Back on topic. RM isn’t stupid. By going on Farage’s nocturnal emission he knew exactly what message it would send out.
Pretty certain scouts is multi faith, no faith, and you probably don’t even need to mention God and the Queen when being invested? I could be wrong tho as it’s been a while since I’ve helped out at a meeting.
It certainly is.
Doesn't stop the detractors criticising it for what it was 20+ years ago though. Prejudice without checking facts is never a good thing.
I was a cub and scout leader for 20ish years - happy to report that I’m not a paedo.
It really is a very progressive organisation - most people’s perception is not supported by reality.
What is fundamentally abhorrent is that he’s chosen to appear on a network that has actively employed presenters – not simply right-wing, but actually dehumanise people on the grounds of their origin and supports action counter to international law.
Ken Livingstone's been on with Farage....
On the topic of Scouts, Scouting was brilliant for me, did loads of brilliant outdoor stuff. My kids either are or will be involved in the Scout movement.
I have nothing but respect for the adults who give up their time to give kids the opportunity to get outdoors.
If the kid doesn’t want to mention God then they don’t have to.
They (and the leaders) do have to swear to do their duty to the Queen though, which I don't really like. FWIW, I'm not a rabid republican, I just think don't feel I (or they) have a duty to the Queen, and it's part of the quasi-military, days-of-empire roots of Scouting that is no longer appropriate.
But, a you say, back on topic...
It really is a very progressive organisation – most people’s perception is not supported by reality.
My perception is based on when I went to scouts, I'm glad it's become more progressive. I wouldn't feel comfortable getting my kids to swear allegiance to the Queen though, for exactly the reasons IHN states.
Ken Livingstone’s been on with Farage….
Ken Livingstone also has poor judgement.
It really is a very progressive organisation
Which is why folks like Farage think it was "better in the old days" when it wasn't (like every other children's organisation was back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.) This is why folks like Ray going onto programmes like this is so dangerous. Ray seems like a moderate fellow and his view that people and children were more self reliant, and that groups like the scouts and Saturday and Sunday schools had something to offer and made for more outdoor focused kids can be used by Farage to co-opt him into agreeing with that myth.
It also raises the spectre of encouraging the development of children's organisations that are defined by their alignment with right and far right ideologies. (monarchy, militarism, hierarchies and so on)
They (and the leaders) do have to swear to do their duty to the Queen though
This was my experience when my son was in the scouts and I very much disagreed with it. That said, he had a great time in the Scouts. Some of the activity weekends away were amazing. He really enjoyed chariot racing in particular. Although a little archaic in some ways it is a fantastic organisation and kudos to the guys on here who help out.
Back on topic. Farage is a **** and Mears has plummeted in my estimations by associating with GBNews.
Our lot are having a coached session on the BMX track at the NCC tonight, so I doubt that The Queen will get much of a look in either.
This.
Speaking as someone who has 'promised' to do my duty to God and to the Queen, I'm not really sure what problem it's causing me? My duty to both isn't defined anywhere.
I'm not sure anyone will ever hold me to it if duty is defined anywhere.
I also promised to "help other people". That's a much harder promise to stick to although the quantity of help isn't specified.
In contrast I got camping, wide games, kayaking, sailing, map reading, hiking, countless other stuff. Some of my mates got to try gliding. It's good on a CV if you don't have much else. I don't feel I was short changed by the promise. (I'm also pretty sure I could have coughed/gone silent at the God/Queen bit an nobody would have noticed or cared.
In fact, on reflection, the whole thing is promised "on my honour". Didn't Shakespeare make the point that swearing on your honour doesn't have that much value unless you have a great deal of honour. I don't actually know how much honour I have, but again I can't imagine Her Maj requesting me do perform some duty and when I say 'sorry, too busy' she retorts "Well that really calls your levels of honour into question." And if she did, I'm not sure I'd care.
Ken Livingstone also has poor judgement.
Three years after the Referendum Livingstone was still campaigning to remain in the EU, quote :
"If I was an MP, I would be campaigning to say: this was a mistake. We must remain or you will lose your jobs. I suppose they worry that the party will be decimated if they do, but I can’t see the point unless you say what you believe."
Yes the Labour Party was decimated for refusing to fully accept the referendum result, 2 years after claiming that it would, and yes Livingstone has poor judgement.
Edit : As well as cosying up to Farage to boost his ridiculous image of the guy that everyone wants to share a pint with. ****
In fact, promising to do your duty doesn't require anything additional at all, it's already 'your duty'. It doesn't require additional duty, just the existing level of duty.
It's a promise to do what you already have to do.
don’t feel I (or they) have a duty to the Queen,
Then you're promising literally nothing.
Unless you do think you *do* have a duty to the Queen in which case you probably ought to do it even if you haven't promised as a child to do it.
In fact, on reflection, the whole thing is promised “on my honour”.
Indeed it is, and 'honour' is clearly a fairly ethereal thing. The way I've explained it to Scouts making the promise is that your 'honour' is the respect that you earn from other people, and that you earn and keep respect by, amongst other things, doing the things that you promise to do. So, it then feels a bit hypocritical to effectively say to them that it's important to keep your promises, but don't worry about the duty to God/Queen bit in your Scout promise, cos that doesn't really count.
Indeed it is, and ‘honour’ is clearly a fairly ethereal thing. The way I’ve explained it to Scouts making the promise is that your ‘honour’ is the respect that you earn from other people, and that you earn and keep respect by, amongst other things, doing the things that you promise to do. So, it then feels a bit hypocritical to effectively say to them that it’s important to keep your promises, but don’t worry about the duty to God/Queen bit in your Scout promise, cos that doesn’t really count.
I'd agree.
...but when they reach adulthood, if they ever feel constrained in some way, about 5 minutes thought will make them realize they promised pretty much nothing and let them off the hook, well it will make them realize there in fact is no hook. I wouldn't be surprised to find the bloke made up promise made it that way deliberately so as not to encumber kids with a hard commitment to live with.
Mind you I seem to recall the promise including keeping the scout law. I'll Google that now and see what I have to do....
A Scout is to be trusted.
A Scout is loyal.
A Scout is friendly and considerate.
A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts.
A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.
Well, I break 4 and 5 routinely. I'm breaking 5 by typing this!
I conclude Scouts is brilliant and the promise is non-binding and not a problem.
On further reflection the promise is to the Queen not 'all future reigning monarchs'.
So for a 10yo making the promise today, even if he does think he has some additional 'duty' (which he doesn't), it's not going to last long. He'll be free of it by the time he into his 20s.
So on the one hand a temporary promise which commits to nothing, predicated on a quantity of honour which is unmeasurable. On the other hand paddleboarding and wide games. 🤔
As someone who was subjected to a 3hr (scheduled 90mins) Ray Mears live 'experience', for once, my sympathy lies with Farage.
Jeez, some people must struggle through life being so literal.
On the topic of Scouts, Scouting was brilliant for me, did loads of brilliant outdoor stuff. My kids either are or will be involved in the Scout movement.
I have nothing but respect for the adults who give up their time to give kids the opportunity to get outdoors.
I've helped out in various support, committee and fundraising roles since my lad joined Beavers, and he's now an adult leader when he's not at uni. In that time he's tried loads of activities from sub aqua to gliding, had 3 weeks in the US and Canada as part of the 2019 Jamboree and done lots of other national and regional events, as well as setting up and running the district website. A shy little boy has become a well rounded young man who crucially appreciates that a lot of people volunteered their own time to help him achieve this, and gives back when he still can. And he has no time for religion or royalty.
(For balance, Guiding has done the same for my daughter, MrsMC is a Guide leader)
Helping out doesn't have to mean giving up 2 hours every Thursday - units and districts are crying out for people in the background to look after organisation, fundraising, social media stuff on a more casual basis. And if anyone reading this lives near Ilkeston and wants to give it a try, PM me!
had 3 weeks in the US and Canada as part of the 2019 Jamboree
Good point.
I never went abroad as a Scout but made friends with people from all over the world through Scouting events in the UK.
Positive IMHO.