[Closed] off piste skiing

Step 1: Rent a snowboard.. 😉

Spent all of last week off piste with mates in St Anton. I personally snowboard most of the time but they were giving tips to some of the less experienced members of our group. Main one being narrow your stance off piste, try not to have your legs far apart. Oh and don't be afraid to shift your weight back and straightline it through the deep stuff otherwise you might not make it through!

Step 2 - Ignore the tea-trayists! 😉
Step 3 - Lessons and guiding. Do it!
Step 4 - Skis are simply betterer. FACT.

😉

Wider skis with rocker?

On a serious point, don't go [i]properly[/i] off-piste without a guide, proper avi equipment (transceiver, pole, shovel) and some idea how to use it.

Just start by doing slackcountry e.g. ungroomed sections between two pistes, ideally where the pistes remain visible. You can normally do that in relative safety, but do consider there is probably a reason that it is ungroomed (i.e. big rocks or a river)

And practise getting up in deep powder. It is hard!

[quote=Painey ]Spent all of last week off piste with mates in St Anton. I personally snowboard most of the time but they were giving tips to some of the less experienced members of our group. Main one being narrow your stance off piste, try not to have your legs far apart. Oh and don't be afraid to shift your weight back and straightline it through the deep stuff otherwise you might not make it through!

see, this is what happens when you listen to your mates rather than getting proper lessons.

[b]
DON'T

LEAN

BACK
[/b]

Technique is the same on and off piste - press your shins into your boots, and roll your legs to the side to let the skis do the work. Arms forward to help ensure you have control. Lean back, and all that control goes. There are a couple of slight changes, inasmuch as you have no edges with which to make turns so you need to move your skis slightly closer together to build more of a platform in the snow, and you need to allow that platform to build so you can't turn as sharply.

Learn to "bounce" - keep regular turns going, don't get into this thing of traversing until you run out of snow then making a turn because you have to

and stay close to other tracks, there's nothing I hate more than seeing a MASSIVE powder field with a single track meandering here there and everywhere. Save some fresh for the people behind you, it's only polite

+1 to lessons and guide.

Off-piste skiing exposes weak technique. Which can make it hard work and demoralising.

On the other hand, when you get it right, you can roll out cliche like 'better than sex'.

Wider skis with rocker?

do make it a lot easier - plus some with rockers are decent on piste as well as the ski is effectively shorter.

Cool, been trying snowboarding for the past 2 years and on a recent holiday to St Anton ended up skiing againaand loved it. Keen to get some off piste time under my belt.

As a snowboarder I can't give you ski specific advice and I'm really just a journeyman:

* The soft snow acts a brake so take more direct lines than you would on-piste to avoid stalling.

* Try to take lines where there is mostly untracked snow. Crossing a few tracks is fine but if it's mostly tracked it get real bumpy and hard to control

* Avoid submarining, by concentrating on keeping the nose(s) up and out so that you surf through the snow i.e. you being floated by the pressure of snow under you, flying really.

* You really dont need to press edges, you are just steering by directing pressure -it's quite subtle and works best if you're really calm, gentle and relaxed. It helps if you look well ahead so that your steering can be well planned and gentle

* You can "surface" by putting in a little weigh-unweight bounce and this helps when steering as it briefly frees you from deeper snow to make the turn. If you manage to do this rhythmically it feels lovely and you get some beautiful S lines left when you look up the hill

* Shallower slopes are "normally" safe from avalanching, esp when others have left tracks there. Think carefully before taking lines more than a few metres away from existing lines because weak points that trigger avalanches can lie hidden quite close to where others have passed without incident. In particular, watch out on steep slopes for slightly dull looking wind-deposited snow that cracks to slabs.

* if you are in any doubt about a slope, go one-by one and stop well away from the line of descent. Ideally be equipped and practised with rescue equipment.

Get some really wide skis.

DON'T

LEAN

BACK

Just to be clear I didn't say lean back, said don't be afraid to shift your weight a touch to go straight through very deep stuff. Last week we had near chest deep powder in the Arlberg and some of our group were struggling with the deep snow, going over the bars so to speak. Whilst I can ski a black run I'm certainly no skier though and the rest of what you say is solid advice.

Can't say enough about having the right equipment. Only ever go proper off piste with the essential 3 pieces, transceiver, shovel and a probe. Make sure you know how to use the transceiver as well and always carry a metal shovel too, plastic ones can be next to useless digging people out of compacted snow.

1) Get some lessons.

2) Make sure you've got appropriate insurance, particularly if you ignore points 1) and 3).

3) Get some lessons.

A couple of hours lessons won't help you; if you're really going off piste you'd waste this just learning how to use a transceiver. Get at least a couple of half day's lessons. And don't worry about what sort of skis at this stage unless you're using something really narrow from the 1990s.

Shallower slopes are "normally" safe from avalanching,

Depends what you mean by shallow. You're actually safer on >45° slopes.

[img] [/img]

That's good info Graham. By Shallower I mean similar to a red run ie under 30 degrees. You can see that typical black run gradients for 30 plus degrees start to get into the danger statistics. Snow doesn't normally pitch above 60 degrees (some exceptions in the Andes I've read)

Not sure I would attempt more than 40 degrees!

Free the heel.
[img] [/img]

If you fall apart already in deep snow on piste then be prepared to find it really difficult, no amount of tips and good advice on here will prepare you for how it feels, it's a weird combination of bouncing and rhythm, you really need a good steep run to get a good flow going. Go with a local guide and make sure your insurance covers you off piste, a bill for a helicopter will ruin your holiday, bear in mind there's been a lot of snow in the france alps this year, avalanche risks were med to high when I was there in jan. have fun you might be a natural, I wasn't.

Free the heel.

Free the heel, free the mind 🙂

OP - Stay strong in the core. Allow yourself to be free to move more fore and aft to adapt to the terrain. Move more, flow more. Start to learn to read the terrain and make the relevant adjustments. Welcome to the mountains.

Everyone talks about soft snow and powder which is one part for sure but the more technically challenging off piste comes with the variable snow conditions. Crusty, choppy, windblown hardpack, trees, avvi debris etcetc

+1 on dont lean back. This is a long run myth re off piste skiing and is incorrect technique. You wont learn anything off a website, lessons are the key but a few mental images

1: ski softly - many people who struggle OP tend to be too aggressive. The best guide I ever skied with kept saying "softly, softly, like a butterfly kissing the snow - he was French!!
2: linked to 1, LESS is MORE. do not try to aggressively edge or close your turns. The bounce image is a very good one.
3: try to stay in the fall line, arms higher and wider than normal and then gentle up and down movements is all that is required. Bounce can be interpreted too aggressively, think soft up and down in very relaxed manner. Modern skis have a naturally rthymn built into the construction - use it,
4: ski with some speed but let the snow slow you down. Aggressive attempts to traverse/slow down will normally end one way! This is linked to 3, once you start traversing your body position is likely to be aross rather than down the fall line. Not good!
5: relax and breathe.
6: if you turn very softly and not too aggressively staying in the fall line, you will be surprised how tight the S's actually look when you reach the bottom. If you start off thinking thinking tight aggressive S's you are more likely to see lots of bomb holes down the slope!!!!

and stay close to other tracks, there's nothing I hate more than seeing a MASSIVE powder field with a single track meandering here there and everywhere. Save some fresh for the people behind you, it's only polite

No, no, no. No friends on a powder day

Make sure you know how to use the transceiver as well

and the people you are skiing with do, and that they don't whizz off in cavalier manner so if you were caught they wouldn't notice or be able to get to you.

Last year near St Anton some prince died (eventually) after being in a coma - he got caught and his security entourage got to him reasonably quickly, but not quick enough.

The average time to dig someone out is more than the time it takes for you to start having problems breathing CO/2. Only 30% of people survive when it takes 30+ minutes to find and dig them out...

http://www.snowsafe.co.uk/avalung-information.php

An avalung will allow you to breathe for a longer, and airbag systems are even better but they are expensive and bulky.

+1 on the bounce thing. hard to describe but start and just try to move skis 10 or 15 degrees to sides to start, until you get the rhythm going....
If you're in deep stuff and struggling to make the first turn, try planting both poles for some extra lift.

St Anton last week was 50cm++ powder, so I can confirm Painey's claims.
Get lessons, and the right gear and know how it works. I carry a tranceiver, pole and shovel, but only any good for rescuing mates- they need them too.
French centre UCPA is brilliant for introductions to off piste and supply all the kit, plus do a heap of lessons at a great price. Well worth a look if you're on a budget.
I board and ski and each has its place.

enjoy

+1 to lessons and guide.

Off-piste skiing exposes weak technique. Which can make it hard work and demoralising.

On the other hand, when you get it right, you can roll out cliche like 'better than sex'.

Would lessons and a guide help for sex too?
(as my 'friend' often finds it hard work and demoralising)

Last year near St Anton some prince died (eventually)

He is still alive and rumoured to be showing signs of regaining consciousness.

My view on all this.

1. Get some lessons, technique comes naturally after a while but if you are only used to on-piste these will help
2. Try small stuff next to the piste first before venturing off
3. Most importantly, get avalanche training. I can't over-emphasise enough how important this is. And then remember, even this won't save your life. I have been backcountry skiing for 20 years and out of my group of buddies have the reputation for being the most anal when it comes to being safe. I always keep an eye on the snowfall and check the snow before hitting a big pitch. Even then i have been caught out twice, the last one most recently I am 100% sure i was only saved by my airbag.

Respect the snow.

Would lessons and a guide help for sex too?
(as my 'friend' often finds it hard work and demoralising)

Don't lean back.

He is still alive and rumoured to be showing signs of regaining consciousness.

minimal consciousness - I think he might as well be dead as he is supposed to have massive brain damage.

15 minutes under the snow...

Very wise words from LHS. At best we minimise risk, but we never eliminate it! Basic law of the mountains!

A couple of things I don't think have been mentioned:

Keep weight on both your skis - on piste you tend to weight the outside ski in turns, this doesn't work so well in soft stuff. One off-piste lesson I had we spent a lot of the time on piste but using the inside ski to turn in order to work on the technique for this.

You can't skid your turns off-piste. A lot of people still do most of their turns by skidding the skis rather than carving (even on fat carving skis) - the transition to off-piste isn't easy if you do that, you need to learn to carve.

Bang on, aracer. Mrs supersaiyan really struggles in the soft stuff but looks fine on a black run. Any weakness in technique on piste is massively magnified off piste. Assuming you have a good, wide stance on piste, try narrowing it slightly off piste. If you struggle to get equal weighting throughout your whole turn, practise one-legged skiing on piste, turning both ways. Don't skid and use the energy from one turn to initiate the next - again practicing short swing turns on piste may help with rhythm. Also, what everyone said about the holy trinity, stay safe and save some for me!

Side of piste is a decent place to start. Don't go traversing off across the mountain to find the untracked section unless you know what you're doing. There is plenty of danger straying into areas which look close to the lift but are not directly above marked slopes.

Wide skis make a massive difference. Off piste with a set of rental super stiff race carve skis is usually an unhappy experience unless you've got skillz.

Other than that there's a whole host of technique which has been covered above but best to have a lesson as you rightly intend to do.

Depends what you mean by shallow. You're actually safer on >45° slopes.

This is true, but I'll go out on a limb here and guess that nobody on this forum has ever skied anything which has a sustained pitch of over 45°.

Sustained 40° is very, very scary.

Sustained 45° feels like a cliff and is properly in the realm of extreme skiing.

There are very few ski pistes with any sustained sections much over 30°.

This is true, but I'll go out on a limb here and guess that nobody on this forum has ever skied anything which has a sustained pitch of over 45°.

Agreed. Been down the Harakiri piste in Mayrhofen and that is steep enough at 78% (about 38° by my reckoning)

[img] [/img]

Off-piste in deep power it is certainly possible to go off deeper than that - but I think for most of us that chart is a warning that "red run" off-piste should not be considered "safe".

I was given one great piece of advice that I still use.

I was really stuggling to "get started" off piste, just couldn't get the first turn. A friend suggested that I "bounce" 3 times in a straight line and make the first turn on the third bounce.

It's a great way of getting some rhythm going before you start turning.

Just got back from Les Gets on Monday and the snow at the moment is epic. 😀
I never normally go off piste as basically im just not very good at it and just couldn't seem to get to grips with the technique needed even though i've been skiing for years and would consider myself a confident skier.
Sitting on a chair lift one day speaking to a random "yoof" we were on about powder skiing and my lack skills and he just said sit back relax and enjoy.
So off i went to try out his theory in knee deep powder and what a revelation,i've just had the best three days skiing i've ever had.
Now im obviously no off piste God but the leaning back advice really helped and i now feel far more confident in the deep stuff.

The next time i go i'll try and use the tips shared in the posts above before i develope even more bad habits.
The reason i love skiing is you're always learning,awesome sport. 😀

1 or 2 good points and some bad ones
LHS is right but as to what slopes avalanche someone needs to check facts

Went out just before work the other morning to get first lifts a day after it snowed, did a nice route on my doorstep but there was a lot of cracks and slides (probably say 6 really big slips) even with all the gear its a bit daunting. I'd say get a guide and stay between pistes whilst your learning as falling over can be exhausting if your fitness isn't good.

This was a nice ski, not steep though but a good view. You can see what someone said above about forcing a turn... watch near the end when a ski dives from bouncing too hard and having too wide a stance.

GrahamS had the best advice in the first post. Or just get some of those skis that are so huge it's basically like having a snowboard strapped to each foot. Not tried them but they are probably really good.

Like nearly as good as a snowboard good. 🙂

legend - Member

No, no, no. No friends on a powder day

[url= http://swissalpineadventure.blogspot.ch/2013/02/friends-on-powder-days.html ]Sorry, this is a completely ignorant attitude that is leading to stupid accidents. [/url]

LHS is right but as to what slopes avalanche someone needs to check facts

Not trying to present myself as an expert by the way.

I've been to a couple of avalanche lectures, sat through online courses and videos and done basic transceiver drills a couple of times, but that's about it. (I ride slackcountry. Wouldn't go any further without a guide and gear as I'm well aware I don't have the practical knowledge)

The stuff about slope angle is pretty common to all of those though so I've no reason to doubt it.

e.g. Here is a similar diagram from the [url= http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/online-course/terrain/slope-angle ]online avalanche course at the Canadian Avalanche Centre[/url].
[img] [/img]

[quote=ir12daveor ] legend - Member
Sorry, this is a completely ignorant attitude that is leading to stupid accidents.

Good read that. Some very interesting points that people need to read and understand

Some good advise and some very bad advice above.

Double pole planting to get extra lift is a big no no.

Although I get what people are saying about the 'bounce' it is actually the wrong thing to do, as you end up using your body to turn, rather than letting the skis do all the work.

My advice would be 1. If your loaded get coaching in a small group, you will learn off each other.

2. If your not loaded ski with some one who can do it.

3. Try and try again.

Powder skiing is all about relaxing, being soft and smooth and not pushing too much on the skis.

Rather than bounce, just role the knees, and then the skis will start going in to reverse camber and as they return to normal camber that gives you the natural lift, there is no forced bouncing involved.

Off piste skiing is an art. When it clicks it just clicks, but it can take a long time getting there.

I agree there will not be many who have skied 45+ degree slopes here. That is truly steep and your arm touches the hill on the uphill side. At that angle its a whole different turning technique to the ones people are mentioning here.

Plus at steep angles avalanche risk is reduced, but its still there, plus the fact you are normally dropping in from an arete etc with cornice. Also 35 ish degrees plus, the snow pack falls with you when your skiing down.

Try the alternate Valle Blanche routes. Straight out the tunnel and immediate right, thats nice and steep 🙂

Looks like I might be investing in some guide time when I get there. Off with some snowboarders so no one I can follow sadly.

Cheers for all the info - can see me doing some slackcountry initially.

St Anton seemed to have load of opportunity and loved Route 17

B

I should've known that the STW fun police would be along at some point.

That article is about people being dicks and not understanding their affect on the snow pack and other skiers/boarders. Any use of "no friends" that I've ever heard relates purely to "if your sorry ass isn't put of bed first thing, I'm nailing the virgin pow without you"

Top of the couloir extreme in Blackcomb is somewhere between 48 and 50 depending on who you speak to. Mellows out pretty quickly to 40 ish though. We got some strange looks as i was in scoobydoo suit at the time whilst a mate was dressed as bananaman 😀

Funkydunc has some good advice. Most importantly though don't lean back as some have suggested, just stay centred over the skis and be patient with your turns, don't force it, particularly by kicking the heels out. Also steer with your hips as you do on your bike.

And double pole plants....yeeeesh 🙄

St Anton is fantastic although be careful with the slack country as you can get yourself in serious terrain pretty quickly.

These guys are very good if you're looking for guides who will provide you with instruction. We had a guy called Pico who could ski or board with the highest level group of each, very impressive watching how easy he made everything look.

http://www.pistetopowder.com/

but I think for most of us that chart is a warning that "red run" off-piste should not be considered "safe"

Safe is relative. Red runs don't exceed pitches of 40%, ~22 degrees (do your own research to confirm this). The chart clearly shows that starting an avalanche at that angle is unlikely.

Avoiding steep slopes on higher risk days is the advice given by HAT. But Henry does warn:

Slab avalanches generally release on slopes of more than 30° above (steepness of a black run). BUT you can trigger a big avalanche on much shallower slopes if there is a nice steep loaded slope above, especially when the danger rating is high: 4 or 5.

That is a nightmare.

I was like you, I got together with mates and we hired Alison Culshaw (top off-piste coach in Chamonix). http://www.offpiste.org.uk/ all off us improved massively and got a huge confidence boost.

If you can't get a group together, she also runs courses.

email me if you want to know more

These guys are very good if you're looking for guides who will provide you with instruction.

have to disagree somewhat about pistetopowder.

Most people seem to use them for single days guiding, so if you do a weeks course it is disjointed as it is full of people coming and going, overestimating their skill levels and therefore being in the wrong group, etc. If you get pushed up a group you will often go to a different guide.

The tuition you get is minimal because of that - most people are in the group for guiding so don't expect them to stop and do much tutoring, just the odd tip.

If you do a weeks course you would expect to get some reasonable training about equipment, rather than the cursory check that the transceivers work and not much more. Because people are there day-by-day they haven't time to dedicate a morning to teaching how to use the transceivers.

Nothing like an integrated week-long course, like for example Warren Smith's Academy (which I recommend fully - all-round excellent - your skiing will come on a lot).

So it works out quite expensive for what it is.

I did it last year to avoid skiing with my mates (!) who are now a lot more experienced than me but also quite cavalier about their skiing, and sure enough at the end of the day they had stories about just missing one of the many large cracks that were occurring on the south facing slopes.

If I had followed them and gone down one I don't think they would have noticed, and wouldn't have been in any sort of position to help get me out!

DO NOT ski off piste without insurace for off piste skiing; if you have an accident the secouristes will not lie about your position and your insurers will refuse to cover you.

If you're doing more than just cutting between pistes in a resort, wear an Ortovox, know how to use it, don't ski alone and do carry rescue kit like probes and shovel.

A pair of all-mountain skis like Rossignol Bandits make coping with powder and crud much easier.

Rossignol Bandits

old-school - they don't make them anymore! Plus narrow now.

I bought some Rossi S86 the other year which are wide-ish and have a rocker - so good for all-over - but Rossi noticed that and stopped making them.

But they look narrow now as people ski 90+.

I have spent a lot of time boarding in Canada and the States, and, in my experience, these are the best places to learn off-piste. Generally speaking they draw a boudary around the skiable area within in which there are pisted runs and unpisted sections. These are all deemed safe ( within the context of a sport that is inherently risky) certainly in terms of avalanche. Also it is easier to get insurance for this inbounds off piste, don't need a guide, it's patrolled etc.

I learned from a guide in Whistler, it was a three day programme which was mainly guiding for experienced boarders or skiers with a few top tips thrown in. The best advice I've ever got was don't look at the trees or you'll hit them, look at the gaps - I have now adopted this as a life philosophy! Don't know if they still do this, it was last century, but anything similar is really worth it. My gf did the ski version and we ride the slack country happily together.

Slopes also much less busy that Europe, I've boarded off the back off Mammoth for hours in freshies and the only people I saw was my partner and the lift guy.

You need to check the rules on between piste eg in Italy I have a feeling that the any off piste at all is illegal without a guide, and the ski patrol can fine you.

And make sure you have the right insurance

Bandits were great, had those a few years back. Big fan of salomon crossmax when they first came out.

I'm off to St Anton in a month or so - just praying for freshies. Where's some good areas/runs in St Anton to find slack country fun without hiring a guide?

TurnerGuy - Fair point re piste to powder although i possibly worded it badly as i meant hire them for a days guiding within your group of mates and the guide (or at least in our case) will give you tips here and there. However by doing it that way the instruction you receive will be nowhere near as good as the WM ski academy or similar. However having had a decent experience with them using them as a guide i'm disappointed to hear their offpiste instruction is set up as you suggest. That is rubbish and i would be royally pi*8ed off if i'd turned up expecting a week of off piste lessons with skiers of a similar level but just got shoved into the various daily groups instead.

Italy. The law was passed in 2003 in the the Piedmont region and supersedes the national law: Sestriere, Sauze d'Oulx and Bardonecchia. Thankfully not spread to Aoste, Courmayeur, 4 valleys, Cervinia

You MUST have avalanche safety equipment if off piste riding in Piedmont.

Where's some good areas/runs in St Anton to find slack country fun without hiring a guide?

There's tonnes top of Rendel, Kapall, Valluga. Start by checking out the Itineriaries marked on the piste Map.

In one avalanche book I read the guy would pack a large rucksack out with a uncompressed down jacket.

The jacket would be good for emergency wear, but also its bulk, whilst not weighing much, helped pack the rucksack out, increasing its size, and therefore helping him to keep 'up' in an avalanche.

Avalanche flow is granular, like cornflakes, so the big stuff floats to the top - so you want to make yourself as big as possible - hence the airbags.

Apparently when snowmobile riders get caught they often find the snowmobiles sitting on top of the snow in good condition, the rider being somewhere beneath, probably dead.

Another writer reckoned it will only be time before adrenaline junkies start 'riding' avalanches with their airbags - then re-priming them and going back up for the next ride...

Thanks for the clarification on Italy, I last rode there in Md di Campiglio, even there very few people doing anything off the marked runs at all so I assumed the rules applied to all Italy. Anyway, outside of designated skiing areas I'd be hesistant to ride off piste without a guide or proper local knowledge and equipment anyway

old-school - they don't make them anymore! Plus narrow now.

Rossignol Bandits are wide enough for a touring ski; I'd like to see you try to fit a climbing skin to anything wider then follow a narrow zig-zag!

The airbags definitly work, believe me, but as per my previous posting you must do as much as you can to never get yourself in the position that you need one. Most people killed in avalanches will suffer injuries before being buried by being carried into rocks, trees or off a cliff.

Stuff we did without a guide was just the obvious runs coming back down from valluga towards the main ski area. With a guide we went over the back of valluga 2 and down the north side towards zurs. We also did a run over the back of rendl which was fantastic, again with a guide though. To be honest all my proper off piste stuff is with a guide, whether its touring or just going out for a day with skins from a resort; basically anything where i'm going outside the edges of a ski area boundary. I'm not confident enough in that environment to risk it, nor do i profess to know the area well enough to not get lost!

The idea of doing anything with avalance other than absolutely everything to avoid is madness to me. I've seen aftermath, swathes ripped through mature trees, roads brushed aside - bad bad bad.

I always check out the avalanche risk even though I ride in-bounds, this is why I like N America, they take avalanche risk seriously and close down sections if any credible risk.

Plently of fun on the in bounds off piste - Snowbird holds good memories to name just one.

I was like you, I got together with mates and we hired Alison Culshaw (top off-piste coach in Chamonix). http://www.offpiste.org.uk/ all off us improved massively and got a huge confidence boost.

If you can't get a group together, she also runs courses.

+1 Girl knows her stuff. A day with her or any other similar off piste 'coach' is a very good place to start. Difference between this and a 'guide' is that a guide is there to show you a route and safely get you through it, with limited instruction towards your technique.

I came away from my European Mountain Safety course with a decent amount of knowledge and development of my skills on variable terrain. I also had an overwhelming feeling of just how much I didn't know, how hard it is to make objective judgements as to the safety of certain slopes and route selection whilst touring etc. A realisation of how un informed my decisions had been during my previous off piste exploits. There is a lot to understand, local knowledge and snow history being key.

You know nothing and any slope could slide on you anytime. Ride with people who are better than you and have more experience and ability than you, they be the ones who'll be digging you out when you get caught in a slide.

Off course wide/fat skiis help but it's like MTB there is a lot of BS about ski needs. For three of past 4 years, I have mixed between rossingal bandits and the 9S slalom ski. Unlike the slalom planks of my youth, I didn't even notice them (9s) being slalom skiis when using them off piste but they were a riot on piste. Yes they wouldn't have been first choice for OP but basic technique will overcome most differences in equipment!! Having said that changed to K2s this year!

I'm off to St Anton in a month or so - just praying for freshies. Where's some good areas/runs in St Anton to find slack country fun without hiring a guide?

You should never go too far off piste without a guide, that I can't stress enough but there's plenty in St Anton to choose from. Should that be a little more serious than you perhaps fancied then just give any of the ski routes a go. If you're not familiar with what these are they're just unpisted areas which are avalanche controlled so effectively off piste but without the worry of getting buried/lost.

Of these most people do Ski route 33, Mattun, at the top of the Kapall chair. Some good other ones dotted around the ski area though so try them out.

Rendl has some good spots. You can drop off the ski route that takes you underneath the main bubble up the mountain and go through the trees, just don't drop too low or you could have an interesting route out. We saw girl waiting to be rescued whilst hanging in a tree last week!

If you get to the top of the Zammermoos chair you can cut underneath it to the bottom of the drag lift and then drop into the side of Steisbachtal, often called Happy Valley. A horrible bottleneck of a blue run but it does hold good snow on the sides.

Plenty to do in St Anton but if it's been snowing get out early as it gets tracked out very quickly.

Rossignol Bandits are wide enough for a touring ski

I have some Bandits, went for the S86s as everyone was reckoning they were their replacement - couldn't fault them - rocker worked really well.

Mates with the equivalent Legends kept complaining about the tips catching on stuff - one filed the edges off!

Big fat skis will help compensate for technique. MY tehcnique's not great (I still step turn quite a lot) but I've been pretty happy on [url= http://www.ski-review.com/ski_reviews/review/movement_flame_2008/ ]Movement Flames[/url] (78mm underfoot) for the past few seasons

Big fat skis.........78mm underfoot

I think that would qualify as a narrow ski these days; even my touring skis are 88mm underfoot.

I still step turn quite a lot

Warren Smith Academy for you then...

[quote=Rio ]Big fat skis.........78mm underfoot
I think that would qualify as a narrow ski these days; even my touring skis are 88mm underfoot.

sorry, that was the point I was amking but got distracted and didn;t finish. BIg fat skis will help but they are not magic, and you don't [i]need[/i] them. If you want to ski knee deep powder, you need to be knee deep, and you won't be knee deep if you're floating on top of everything

I do have a fatter pair but at 92mm underfoot, they're not exceptionally big.

Another who would say don't worry too much about the skis, I learnt to off piste on 205 Giant Slalom Skis, whilst it took a bit of time to get right, I find it very easy now using my rather old "all mountain" skis which apparently are skinny now at 70 mm underfoot.

Sadly, off piste skiing rarely just involves skiing powder, you normally travel through some crud to get to the best spots and the real pros will have a slightly different technique for each type of snow. However, a good basic technique will get you down most things.

Whilst not for the OP, the suggestion that skiing off-piste should be restricted to guided sorties is rather sad. I have skied off piste in areas I know well without guides, it is just a question of risk assessment. Therefore, you do need the kit and know how to do it, and if you are going on a glacier, rope, a climbing harness, with an ice screw attached is not over kill. I would also talk to guides to check their up-to-date knowledge beforehand.

92mm for powder - at the spatule.

Last season I was playing on Nordica Soul Riders all the time, a cool 97mm underfoot. Got to change your technique on piste when you're beasting out GS turns, but they've got a decent sidecut so they do ski well. Even fun in the lift queue when you notice you've got a snowboard attached to each foot 😀

But what's the point of skiing powder in skis that mean you're on the surface rather than knee deep?

A useful tip when in powder is to take two 3m lengths of 5mm brightly coloured ribbon, tie to rear binding and stuff into end of trouser. If a ski comes off it's much easier to find it.

As for technique, give the skis time to turn. On piste, you can force them round and get away with it, in powder you can't force them and they take longer to react.

And get a monoski!

I'm a snowboarder learning to ski and don't have the experience to make narrow skis work in powder, so if the snow is deep fat skis are a solution.

Last year in Engelberg with a lot of fresh snow:

Day 1: 79mm waist - awful, hard work, needed good technique that I didn't have. Thought about going back to the board after that day.

Day 2: 113mm waist, getting an awful lot easier. Having fun by lunchtime.

Day 3: 125mm waist, feeling too easy, maybe good in Alaska but didn't feel like a challenge. Apart from when it got hardpacked, when they became sketchy as anything 🙂 Definitely worth remembering off piste is not the same as powder.

A useful tip when in powder is to take two 3m lengths of 5mm brightly coloured ribbon, tie to rear binding and stuff into end of trouser. If a ski comes off it's much easier to find it.

I completely disagree with this.

Do you bindings up so they will not come off. You will not suffer injury from skis not releasing in powder.

If you are skiing any reasonable depth of powder you simply will not be able to get back up the slope to retreave the ski, and then getting it back on would be impossible.... goes back to the fact said above that many people on here will never ski truly steep or deep stuff.

Much better to have your skis stay on and just use the steepness of the slope to rotate your skis round and you can then stand up down the falline.

Modern fat skis really help in less than ideal conditions,whih helps anyone at any level of ability, but as has been said you an do it on any ski because done corretly it is the reverse camber of the ski that creates the turn, and sets you up for the next one. Even the sidecut of the ski is almost irrelevant.

Despite years of on piste experience I've never clicked off piste. I had some lessons in Chamonix where the instructor saw my on piste technique and suggested I [i]should[/i] be good off piste. Nope 😥

Do you bindings up so they will not come off. You will not suffer injury from skis not releasing in powder

I strongly disagree. My friend who's got his leg in plaster for two months would disagree too. I wind the bindings down for powder, you're more likely to injure your knees in a fall but the ski is less likely to come off while skiing as there are less shocks and you load the ski in line with your leg rather than applying lateral forces.