Nursery costs £££

Perhaps think about the above and have a little empathy with folks that’re stuck with this dilemma.

Why? I've been through it all, we made our choices and lived with the consequences, including several redundancies. When it turned out my daughter was good enough to go into full time dance training at 13 we made the choice to support her doing that and still are. Meant a lot less holidays and holding onto the same car for 9 years.

There seem to be a lot of people who expect to hang onto the pre kid lifestyle, for most it's not an option. The parents who expect grand parents to pick up the child care and then moan about having constraints on their lives.

As for it being easier in the past, it wasn't.

I agree with what MCTD and Stumpyjon say above. Just because my kids didn’t go to nursery full time and only did/do PT preschool hours, it doesn’t mean they missed out on social interaction, far from it.

We had this issue 16yrs ago, wife didn't go back to her job and retrained as a childminder (cost a couple hundred at the time). She looked after one other similar aged child and made a (v small) wage out of it for a couple of years until our daughter went to nursery. Wage was small but worked out better than having our daughter in full time care and wife in full time work.

Many, many people bring up kids on low incomes (ok the state pays a lot of it),

I think this is the bit that stings a little when people on here say something along the lines of "you earn X above national average so you must be ok". If you're on low income you deserve help no questions, but for many who have tried to do "the right thing" (which isn't the right thing it's just there to keep the system running and keep billionaire happy better to be a small business) gone to uni or done a college course earn above average but aren't on £100k+ working in "the city" wages they find they are no better off. This drives the worse emotions, that of jealousy. This is where many fail to understand when they look at income and yell "well you earn more than national average you mush be ok" which I have read a lot on here word to that effect. In reality they earn more than average but if they have any dependants the difference with with those on average or below average if far less pronounced or zero than people realise.

. In reality they earn more than average but if they have any dependants the difference with with those on average or below average if far less pronounced or zero than people realise.

Eh? A person on a higher income won't struggle with costs of kids as much as a person on a low wage.

The issue is around what choices and sacrifices you are willing and able to make. Which is never clear cut, and we should try not to judge.

@Daffy, sounds like Bristol is too expensive an area to live for your income example.

The friends I have (and myself) who don't have financial headaches with children have chosen to live in an area with a good cost of living to income ratio. The friends who always moan about family finances, mortgaged themselves up to their eyeballs to live in an aspirational posh postcode, which also have very high childcare costs.

I’ve not missed the point at all. Regardless of when the decision is made you still have to make it.

I'm not sure what point your making here - no one is sitting on the fence

Now, I’d continue to rent, get a cheaper/no car and one of us would still stay at home.

So in that vein - 1 income, £30k, £22.5k after tax, rent at £1200, utilities etc at £600, food/weeklies/babystuff at £500...oh wait, you're already on negative £450. Right so lets go for the cheapest 2 bed I can find - that's £975, so I'm still on negative £225. I have no car, no free money, I'm not paying ANY childcare...what do I do? Council house? How long? Move? To where? Also, I have no car...

A few years ago, that would've been £750 for rent, £375 for food and £450 for utilities, but today it's not... This is what I'm trying to get across. Nothing has changed in terms of what's required and what needs to be done, but the resources needed to make it happen haven't kept pace with the rise in outgoings.

Yes we’d struggle but having kids isn’t a simple, cheap or easy decision. Paying out a full wage so somebody else could look after my kid just doesn’t compute for me. If it works for others that’s fine.

Bringing in a second wage, even if you're paying out almost 70% of it isn't a choice, it's a necessity just to make ends meet. As I said in an earlier post, If one persons wage is over £40k, or housing is substantially less than around here, I think you can make it work, but the numbers I'm showing for Bristol are accurate and you can see how difficult it would be.

I really don't envy people in this situation at the moment

Why? I’ve been through it all.

Look at wages vs house prices, fuel and food costs. Do you seriously believe that todays 30year olds are on equal wealth terms to even 10 years ago? They pay more national insurance, food is almost 40% more, fuel is almost 60% more, housing is almost 40% more, transport is extortionate. And wages? Well, the graduate starting salary at BAE is £29k It was £26k in 2009.

There seem to be a lot of people who expect to hang onto the pre kid lifestyle, for most it’s not an option

This gets trotted out a lot, but is hardly the norm for most people, especially young professionals.

As for it being easier in the past, it wasn’t.

FFS - No one's saying it wasn't hard! What I'm saying is that it's now going to be harder. What I'm saying is that faced with the same decisions now, in a MUCH tougher and uncertain economic climate, would you be able to make the same decision in the same way? Declining birth rates suggest that it's quickly becoming an easier decision to make - just get a dog instead.

If I were in this situation, NOW, with my salary back in 2011, the only way I could make ends meet as a family would be either a second job or to take on the risk and uncertainty of a contract role. That's the only way we could make it work with my wife earning nothing. We'd be in the red by £250 a month at an absolute minimum.

2 kids of 9 and 4 so another year to go of nursery fees for the youngest . It’s been tough as we’ve no family around us but we’ve made it work . My wife retrained as a PT  so she could be self employed and I work shifts so have days off in the week .
We’ve been lucky in that , that has allowed our kids to get both some nursery days and also days with us at home .

The thing that frustrates me with this conversation is that some people who have raised their kids are basically saying it was really hard for us and I don’t care if it’s hard for you now . Just because there wasn’t much in the way of subsidised child care in the past doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be in the future. Like a lot of things in this country the cost of child care is a political decision , it doesn’t have to be like this . Much like kids relying on food banks to eat and pensioners  riding buses to stay warm these are results of policy’s of governments that people vote for .

There was a car sticker that was going around during the Scottish independence referendum that said “ Bairns not bombs “ at the time I dismissed it as being overly simplistic but maybe they have a point .

Bringing in a second wage, even if you’re paying out almost 70% of it isn’t a choice, it’s a necessity just to make ends meet.

Yet I am earning less than the one person in your example, paying out the same increased prices for food, fuel and utilities and live in Cheshire. Not exactly a cheap place to live. Our mortgage is still a substantial part of our outgoings. You’re taking about two people on good wages struggling to make ends meet? I grew up piss poor and truly understand struggling to make ends meet. It’s not in the same league as what you’re describing, not even close.

You’ve also missed child tax credits and other possible help from your equation. Or one person having a PT job based around fewer hours being spent on nursery/preschool. I’m not saying it’s not difficult because it clearly is. Hell, if I took a job close to minimum wage and received benefits towards raiding my kids and help with housing, I’d likely be slightly better off than I am now. But we chose to have kids, chose to sacrifice career, knew it would leave us skint and in a horrific situation if I lost my job. Yes, I worry about it but I don’t expect anybody else to give a shit or feel sorry for me.

I'm not sure child care should be subsidised for anyone, if you earn enough to pay for the child care and have some left over great, if your income doesn't make it viable to have child care just maybe you should be better off looking after your kids. There might be specific exceptions like skilled health care workers but not for most.

I fully agree with your comments about the government's having made choices that have now resulted in a cost of living crisis well beyond just child care.

TheBrick also makes some very valid observations.

I’m not sure child care should be subsidised for anyone, if you earn enough to pay for the child care and have some left over great, if your income doesn’t make it viable to have child care just maybe you should be better off looking after your kids. There might be specific exceptions like skilled health care workers but not for most

I kind of agree but times aren’t normal . We are in a position where families with 2 incomes are struggling to make ends meet . If families where both parents are working can’t afford child care , what chance do single parent families have. This was true pre cost of living crisis and even more so now . Our system requires people to be working to buy things and pay tax , if you buy into the whole getting people back into work line then affordable child care is a pretty important part of that .

Yet I am earning less than the one person in your example, paying out the same increased prices for food, fuel and utilities and live in Cheshire. Not exactly a cheap place to live. Our mortgage is still a substantial part of our outgoings.

Yes, but your kids are now 8 and 4, so your house was likely bought before the 50%+ rise, so your mortgage payments would be less than someone doing it now. You’ve also benefitted from massively low rates of interest and a rising market which has helped your LTV. How much more (%wise) would the same house cost now?

Child tax credits! Ha, don’t make me laugh. If you go back to work, you have to pay back the credits incurred in the previous tax year. It’s a loan at best and is still a pinky in the dam.

Had the house valued a couple of years back and it had increased £10k in value. We’ve had to borrow more than that against it when remortgaging three years ago. It’s not exactly in tip top condition. Due to remortgage again in October so that should be fun! No pay rise in sight for me either.

As per an earlier post we’ll need a three bed at some point but can’t see it happening tbh. Likely that Mrs F and I will get a bed settee for the living room and it’ll pull double duty as a bedroom for us.

Moonsaballoon you may have a point about the current situation but that's more about dealing with the broader cost of living crisis rather than child care alone. Our governments have been heading to this point since Blair was in power although the last few years have seen the increase in living costs rapidly increase and we're stuck with a government who doesn't understand and doesn't care.

Helps for everyone with an opinion (either way) to:

* Ratio your numbers based on post tax or benefit income + costs.
* Think of yourself today, in June 2022 trying to by your 1st house + kid (I was lucky enough to buy my 1st place in 15 yrs bk. Interest rates only gone down since. Interest rates + inflation only going up now. House hold budget today is a world away from 2 yrs ago, let alone 5, 10, 15 or so when most of us purchased their property or had kids.
* Imagine golden handcuffs theat many graduates today face that may make it hard to throw in job: e.g. Vesting stock / options, private healthcare, visa tied to employment, performance related bonus, career break if in senior roles. Many will say 1st world problems but these are often make up a low basic salary (Even for the city types).
* Even for those with houses... Imagine the interest rate on your mortgage going up 2x after having 1st child, potentially hitting negative equity in a year or two.

Some are, many not.

I started the thread but wasn't looking for sympathy and can deal with it. Just trying to understand how most people today are going to make it? I can see just looking across the building I work in more than a handful deciding to delay to mid-late 30's, some then having to deal with IVF. If NHS attempt doesn't work it's £15k or so a go.

People aren’t “moaning”, they’re struggling to balance everything they want to achieve in life, with what they can afford and the time requirements of it all.

Same as it ever was.

Yes, it’s a decision
Yes, it’s hard now
Yes, it was hard in the past

Instead of arguing the toss over ratios of how bad it was/is etc the question we should be asking is:

Should it be this hard? Is that actually a good thing for our society, culture and even economy and job market?

Would better, cheaper (subsidised?) childcare arrangements actually be more beneficial to us as a whole?

Have a ponder about that and use the examples of countries that do and don’t have different systems in place to inform your opinion.

^^ Now they are interesting points.

Affordable quality housing, healthcare and childcare should be available for all.

Nurturing / building community, tech and financial system for all today and next generation needs to be focus for government. Neither side seems to have a good idea of how to achieve this right now.

Would love to see if anyone is doing better looking at all countries globally.

Same as it ever was.

Wat a pithy comment. Bravo.

Yes, everyone has always had to strike a balance, but belittling those who're facing the worst financial situation for decades at the worst point (financially) in their lives, because you had it hard too, doesn't really cut it. Dig a little deeper and try a little harder:

Boomer generation disposable income continually increased throughout their lives until retirement.

Gen-X disposable income has flattened or in most cases shrunk from the age of 30-50 years old (as house prices began to rocket).

Millennials are on a curve to have LESS disposable income than Gen-X, even at the peak of their disposable curve and it will flatten and decrease over time to be less than Gen-X.

These are real equivalised incomes for each generation in the UK. The data was up to 2018 - can you imagine how much worse it looks today, just 4 years later, after a pandemic, with no wage increases and significant increases in housing, energy and food costs?

Yes, every generation has faced challenges and choices, but those entering into parenting now, especially those without support, be that financial or in terms of direct family support, are really up against it.

I'm not one of these, my decisions were made 10 years ago.

I come from a very working class background - we were okay, but lived month to month, I've worked from 11 years old as my father descended into alcoholism, paid for all my stuff and my qualifications from 13 onwards, took myself to uni, etc, but if I were to displace my journey 10 years to the right, I'm 100% certain that it couldn't work with the same choices, something would have to give and it wouldn't be something frivolous like holidays (we've had 2 in 10 years) or cars (mine is 19 years old), it would be either my son or my daughter as I'm not sure we could get the time/money aspect right to make both work. As it was we had a 5 year gap to make sure my son was in school before more maternity and to make sure that in the future, we could afford University if required.

amedias
Free Member
Yes, it’s a decision
Yes, it’s hard now
Yes, it was hard in the past

Instead of arguing the toss over ratios of how bad it was/is

- The point is that it's not an argument these days, it's a plain fact that in many areas of the country, a single wage cannot cover initial outgoings, which almost forces you into two wages and childcare.

the question we should be asking is:

Should it be this hard? Is that actually a good thing for our society, culture and even economy and job market?

There isn't an alternative. Our wages can't support higher taxes and higher taxes are the only way to pay for fully subsidised childcare.

Would better, cheaper (subsidised?) childcare arrangements actually be more beneficial to us as a whole?

I've thought about this a lot as I have friends in Norway, Sweden, Germany and France and it's a really tough question as we've spoke about it often over beers. Germany has essentially fully subsidised childcare, but they also have MUCH higher taxes and substantially higher wages. But then, they also have higher house prices per/m2 than the UK. France is similar to the UK, but has generally lower house prices and slight higher wages. Germany's birth rate is lower than the UK, but it's female population percentage is MUCH less than the UK, so that's a bit skewed. France is higher than the UK, . What is interesting is that Germany's average first birth is at 27 whereas in the UK we're nudging 30, France is in the middle. To me that sounds like it's easier to have children earlier in the German system than in the UK or French system. German home ownership is also lower as rents are generally controlled and thus cheaper. Also Germany has a less fluid jobs market than the UK, you can be somewhat assured that once you're in a good job, you'll keep it until something really bad happens and even then. We don't have that - people move around more.

No kids here, so feel free to disregard the rest of this post.
We didn’t have any for a few reasons, but the financials were certainly one of them. Not having kids meant Mrs Lunge could change careers on a complete whim and earn nothing for a period of time, something that likely stopped her from killing herself (dark, but true).

Sounding dangerously like we are suggesting that you need to be well off/financially secure to have children these day.

I know why this view would upset some people but I can’t see how anyone would enter that step of their lives without money being a serious consideration. Kids cost loads as proved on this thread, you absolutely should do the sums in advance.

Think of it another way. It’s 2022, You’re 30 years old, married, with a good job in a professional field, earning £40k a year. Your partner is similar. Your post tax and student loan earnings are around £27.5k a year. £55k for the pair of you. Your rent is £1200, your fixed bills are now £700 (CT, Ins, utilities, etc), your food is £500-£600, You have a car loan at £250 and running the car costs £100. That’s £2850 of your £4500 joint take home pay – none of the above is excessive and is about average for Bristol. So, you’ve got £1650 a month “free” But you need to save for a house, but you want to have kids, you also want to have some life…which do you do, because you can’t do even 2 of them…?

To get a 10% deposit for a 3 bed house in Bristol you’d need to save EVERY penny for 2+ years and you’d end up with a mortgage that costs £1600 on a 30 year term.

So, you’re now 32, with a 3 bed house, your income joint income is now £84k, but your mortgage is higher than your rent, your SL payments are higher and your still want kids…your nursery fees will cost you £1500 a month which is EVERYTHING and then some, what you have spare and you have to do this for 3-4 years.

But you’re now 32 – assuming 6 months of trying to conceive and you’re approaching 35 by the time your kid is 1. Your combined wages in real terms are now LESS than what they were 3 years ago and because one of you was off for 12-15 months, their progression has stalled. Now at 35, you have LESS available and MUCH higher bills, you may have to borrow a little to keep things going when things break, like the car or the washing machine as there’s no slack in the system.

Now – you calculated all this in advance, but no plan survives contact with the unknown, and so your plan to maybe, possibly have a second child is in tatters, your outgoings every month are less than your incoming, but you know it’ll get easier in time – do you go for that second child at 36 or do you wait? financially it’s on the edge of reckless, but biologically, to wait is reckless…WHAT do you do?

If you translate this story 5 years back so you’re 25, your joint earnings are £60k and your takehome is £45k. Your rent is £1000, your bills are similar, so on a monthly basis, you have only £1200 a month free and the size and type of house you can buy is limited to 5x your joint income, so what do you do?

translate it it 5 years forward and you’re 35, trying for your first child, your financial situation is better, but you’re older and if you were planning to have 2, you’re going to be having them both within a 3 year period, that means your childcare could be £30k a year…

People aren’t “moaning”, they’re struggling to balance everything they want to achieve in life, with what they can afford and the time requirements of it all.

Perhaps think about the above and have a little empathy with folks that’re stuck with this dilemma.

Nice post.

Those bleating about staying at home to look after little junior and rolling around in joy without a care in the world. Don’t reckon many can just sack off a job and walk back in two years later.

Has anyone mentioned sacking off a job and walking back in to it two years later? No would be the answer to that. Have some mentioned sacrificing careers in favour of raising their kids in the early years, yes. Not everyone is career focused, some folk just have jobs and are content with that.

As for not a care in the world, quite the opposite. A lot of worry and being very careful with what little money is available.

I’m with Daffy on this.

There are some proper moronic comments here.

I have 7 month old twins. I suppose that was our fault?

Pretty much same think Funkmeister. Some might think long term also?

When I think of our three, the kids they’ve encountered in school who’ve been a little “challenging” have been the ones maximising childcare

Complete exact opposite to my experience. Anecdotes eh?

It's not an us and them situation - as many have pointed out, most have sacrificed in many ways to raise kids and the emotional trauma of that fades in time. What I was alluding to was that in the current climate one of the major options that many in the past chose to do (1 person staying home to raise the kids) may not be viable even for those earning a decent single wage. Rent/mortgage and living costs are bordering on prohibitive. Many more people have degrees and don't want to have career breaks which can be longer than half a decade.

I'm fortunate to have done this 10 years ago (house purchase 7.5 years ago), youngest born 5 years ago, but I see my younger colleagues struggling. These are professional engineers with almost 8 years of experience and you can see the effect it's having. Cars gone, bikes gone, no holidays, turning down leaving parties because they can't afford it, part-time jobs delivering for justeat, compressed hours and partial childcare just to stay above water.

Another thing to consider is just how hard it is to manage 2 full time, professional jobs (whose hours regularly exceed your contract hours, but are not paid for) and young kids and not feel like a total failure at everything. A 6AM start and a 9PM finish is normal, you've got homework and shopping and cleaning and cooking to squeeze into any non-work time. Contrast this with one person at home - With one person at home, all this is easier. You don't have to be home at a fixed time, you don't have to cook when you get home and prepare clothes and breakfast for the next day for everyone, etc.

I agree with @amedias that bigger thinking is required for this. Do we want or even need a more comprehensive system and is there the means and support for that? But then, the same could be said for environmental issues and on either issue, I don't think we'll see much action until the next general election.

Daffy, why don't you just say what's pissing you off - as something clearly is.
Your comment about 'boomer generation disposable income' looks like a pointer.
You refer to a good professional job paying £40k; one of those is wrong.
How about a view from the other end of the telescope?
My (now adult) children were born in 86, 89, 92 when interest and mortgage rates were multiples higher than they are today; nursery costs were not subsidised; there were no hours of free childcare.
My parents were 200+ miles away so that limited their support; MIL was much closer but useless.
We lived near Bristol at the time so I'm familiar with it being a high cost area.
A far smaller proportion of families had 2 cars; upgrading either of both cars regularly was unkown to most families.
One holiday a year at best - load car, drive to france and camp.
Netflix, Sky, Virgin, streaming services - didn't exist so money that would have been spent/wasted on them was available to support family.
Wardrobe upgrades and refreshes? No.
Ooh look, we can upgrade...insert household appliance here; no, none of that.
Regular socialising including use of/reliance on take aways? Didn't happen.
Usage of credit card - if you could get one - was strictly controlled.
Being 'invited' to discuss your spending with bank manager when going marginally overdrawn each month happened several times.
Tight and focussed budgeting.
There wasn't a focus on having new and shiny - functional, not frivolous, underpinned most/all buying decisions.
Multiple bikes, watches or anything else? No.
Second jobs - doing whatever was required to keep everything going.
Let me assure you - it wasn't easy or comfortable back then.

I earn an average wage and partner below average. She has stopped working and we are surviving by eating into savings every month which I have only seen mentioned by a few people so far

The savings are going down quicker than anticipated due to rising cost of everything

We have also cut back on the usual things and I work overtime when possible

If couples aren't savings money each month before kids then I don't know how they expect to survive when they come along

I kind of get why older people keep banging on about Netflix, holidays and car payments. In the 90’s, on 12k a year, saving the same amounts would have made a massive difference. Sky vs Netflix and mobile bills were 4x what they are today, no Easyjet or Ryanair and you got pulled into abusive hp car schemes.

My comment about the boomer generation wasn’t a jibe, it was from an article published by the FT in 2018.

My gripe is that those who raised children in different times seem to trivialise the problems of those going through it today, by focussing on irrelevancies like Netflix, Disney, etc to imply that people aren’t willing enough or strong enough or sacrifice enough to avoid having to use expensive childcare and that they’re just whinging about it. What you’re essentially saying is “toughen up princess, stop being a whiny snowflake”

I remember what it was like back in the 90s, most paid for Sky, many rented TVs, lots of people went out on Fridays and Blockbuster was a thing. Lots of people did a foreign holiday every year and most people OWNED a car. People always had money, it was spent a little differently, but it was there for many.

As for interest rates, don’t be so obtuse. 12% interest on £27k means on a 25y repayment mortgage means 90% of the annual repayment is interest at £300/m. Less than 33% of one average salary before tax. Today, £300k at 5% means you’re paying £15000 a year in interest. 50% of one average salary before tax. That’s not including anything else. That’s the same exact house sold in 1985 and 2021 in Bristol and an assumption of 10% deposit and national average wage at the same time the house was sold

What I’m sick of is people treating late Gen-X and Millennials as slackers who don’t know how to plan, sacrifice and budget. All those who start with “back in my day”. Well, the days are bloody different and you should perhaps look at the whole picture and place yourself in their shoes before lambasting them.

I’m a late gen X/early millennial and a large percentage of my peers use a lot of credit and rental. Cars, credit cards, subscriptions to all sorts. I have none of that. No debts other than mortgage and a rotating single subscription to whichever service has the best stuff on at any given time. I don’t need to place myself in their shoes, I’m wearing them. House purchase in 2014, same year my eldest was born and my salary plus Mrs F’s at the time was a lot more than mine is now.

https://www.economist.com/britain/2022/06/30/british-child-care-is-expensive

outdated subheading to the article.

mobile bills were 4x what they are today

IIRC by first mobile was with Orange at £17.50/month on contract for something like 20 minutes worth of calls a month. Data didn't exists and texts hadn't really taken off yet. - although every New Year the networks would collapse under the weight of Happy NY texts and you'd still be receiving them in the first week of January as their servers recovered....

IIRC by first mobile was with Orange at £17.50/month on contract for something like 20 minutes worth of calls a month

Wow. My first contract was Orange EveryDay50 - 50 free minutes a day for 50p a day. That was 1550 minutes a month for £15.50! These days I pay for about 200 mins a month!

You pay for minutes? How very 20th Century of you.

I can't remember now what my first mobile contract costed, back then it covered the network plan plus the handset cost with no clear delineation. I do remember that SMSes were charged outside of that contract, they were 10p-12p per message. International texting - when it even worked - was something mad like 45p.

You refer to a good professional job paying £40k; one of those is wrong.

Which one ?

That should provide a good idea of which end of the telescope your looking from.

My (now adult) children were born in 86, 89, 92 when interest and mortgage rates were multiples higher than they are today;

Indeed but the figure those rates applied to were multiple multiples lower than they are now ....which has a bigger effect

Phone bill about two G's flat
No need to worry, my accountant handles that

Which one ?

That should provide a good idea of which end of the telescope your looking from.

I wondered that.

I'm in a "a good professional job" and I'm not on 40k. Though of late I'm increasingly thinking that my employer is taking the piss.