We had two 15 months apart and 3rd three years later so was in for thousands a month for years. It got us used to not having as much disposable income and when they came out we saved the money rather than blowing it on coke, hookers, Santa Cruzes and Audis. It was the best thing we ever did.
Your personal experience might colour your judgement of these issues but it works for lots of other folk.
However her experiance sadly is very common more so as purse strings tighten and things get tough and so is as valid as *share it out*
And once born they’re not easily repossessed…
That's why being financially stable is a poor measure of your worth to have a kid.
It is not a long term guaranteed state for most folk. It is but a transient state we dip on and out of. It's a measure at a single point in time
Majority of folk even when they consider them selves stable are 1-2 pay cheques away from not being so.
The more fortunate might be a year or 2 away - but that's just a serious illness or accident - it does and can happen more often than you think.
Kid doesn't go away at this point.
Flip side of waiting is how difficult it can become to get pregnant.... We are later parents by traditional standards as we were doing the financially stable thing...... We realised it was a fallacy and you'd never reach that stage and just got on with it. So many folk we know have waited till they got "financially stable"- then found out sadly either no Bueno or spent their pot on IVF.
I see quite a lot of this working in a primary school. Too many alternatives to list but one thing does stick out. I see many of those who struggle actually having money but not spending it wisely. This week, 2 actually) we have a child off on holiday. Her attendance is shocking and would be even worse if there wasn't a misguided move by the head to be somewhat flexible with the register times. (so granny can do the morning care) Granny can't get this kid 2 miles on time despite not working or having transport problems. What irritates me is that the family can afford flash cars, even flaher iphones etc and a 2 week holiday in Egypt yet can't sort decent wrap around care. Child id often pick up late. A bright 9 year old means that we know full well that granny can't organise crap and mum thinks that the world owes her a living.
Not all situation are like this but many people seem to think that kids and other people supporting them are a given right.
We pay £44 AM / £38 PM in the South Wales Valleys x2 for both lads.
The Gov tax credit allows a max of £500 per child every 3 months so is always maxed by the last month so your just using what ever change you have left.
Mum is the main bread winner and negotiated a 4 day week but tbh makes up that 5th days hours in the evenings, she has a job where slipping behind the curve for too long would negatively effect her career, even though she'd much rather be with the lads at home, but being separated also doesn't allow for that. I've managed to tweek my hours so finish at 12pm on a Friday which removes an afternoon, it all helps.
All this will pass and I'd still do it again so just forget about any disposable income and suck it up for a few years if both are going back to work.
Not sure about the comment about people who use child care not feeling that they can be responsible for their own children, that's total madness.
Our children were in nursery in the period 2003-2009. Though both were in together for only half that time.
SO was a senior doctor at the time. We both earned similar amounts then.
It was surprisingly tight for that period. And we had planned the finances meticulously.
If we were in the same position today it’d be similar to the OP’s I suppose as nursery fees have, reasonably, increased but Dr’s wages have fallen way behind.
Emigrating does seem a reasonable idea.
A colleague of mine was a brutality efficient
finance analyst
Maybe, but did this person factor in NI contributions and intangibles like social interaction, happiness, future ROI? +20p/hour is a bit meh but working in a job today has other immediate benefits and future benefits to consider.
Grandparents, well mainly one grandparent (MIL) who has probably saved us tens of thousands.
Plus my wife chose reduced (flexible) hours. We still put them into nursery for a couple of days a week, but we were extremely lucky with local family support.
Our lads were in hospital 6 weeks post birth and came home on the week the first lockdown started, for the first 6 months they saw no one but Mum and Dad, even after that it was very rare chats over the garden gate, so the social aspect was always something we wanted to bring in later on, 3.5 days gives a good balance. Having been to a nursery parents evening this week it's good to hear about them starting to make friends and build there own relationships which they are just starting to do.
Straw poll all those that successfully used this option. Which decade was this in ?
2014 until now. As per MCD no holidays abroad and a cheap car. House needs lots of work doing and we spend carefully. We always agreed that one of us would stay at home whilst they were little. Youngest starts school this year so Mrs F will be working part time.
I was just gutted that it wasn’t me that got to stay with them tbh. Everyone is different and what works for one doesn’t for the next. It was/is just the right thing for us.
For perspective, When we had ours (90's) there was next to no financial 'support' and mortgage rates were in double figures. We had to scrape by too.
My OH didn't work for the first few years and then when my OH wanted to go back to work we got a Nanny as it was actually cheaper than nurseries etc (for 2 close together). Another benefit of a Nanny is that they come to you, so makes mornings so much less stressful.
I don't have kids partly because of the financial impact. But what I just can't understand is what the point of having kids is, if you are just going to bugger off to work for most of the hours they are awake, leaving someone else to bring them up?
It's like buying yourself a classic car, paying all the costs, then paying someone else to drive it around all day whilst you're at work. Then being too knackered to drive it yourself at weekends.
Hidden option might be to look into a further education course (full-time or part-time) which provides childcare funding, enabling one partner to gain qualifications while the children are young.
Agree with everything Hannah said.
What should people do instead boriselbrus? Did your parents not work??
I live in France. Smallest NewRetro is in creche which is €1.95 per hour, so works out at about €330 per month if he's there 20 days.
Children start school (ecole maternelle) in the year they turn 3, so his older sister has been at school since she was 3 and 2 months.
Another +1 for Hannah. My wife and I had a long hard talk / time with a calculator before we decided to send our kids to nursery, and then we decided only 3 days per week. My wife worked part time to keep her career going and at the time her net wages was about £75 a month to herself as spending money. Naturally we shared our resources as Scotroutes alludes to.
There was pressure on me to keep working and I spent 3 years of that bored in job I could do with my eyes closed purely for the financial continuity, then helped her back to work when our youngest finally went to school.
So the only thing we really benefited from as a couple was that she’s been able to return to work having kept up with her industry.
But for the kids - I’m not sure I’ve seen it posted - another consideration is the childrens social development. Keeping them stuck indoors with parents for 4-5yrs can often be less fruitful than having them in an environment with other children and receiving pre-school learning experiences to help their development. This was also part of our decision.
I don’t have kids
Kinda qualifies the rest of your post tbh. Go and spend some time with people that do to answer your question.
Back when my kid was born, we looked into childcare ....£50 a day it was back then ...I was self employed and subbed out to a company taking £120 a day
OK I thought £50 2a day ain't bad with the wife working also....but the crucher was....they wanted us to pay for their holidays too...so when they shut down for Xmas for the week I've got to pay even tho I'll be at home not earning.
Well we soon put that to rest....I stayed at home full time (no grandparents to help us) till my kid started school.....Best thing ever, we had loads of adventures...
If you can do it and scrimp by (just) then I highly recommend it...looking back at all the photos I took ....money can't buy that or the memory's
She/we are very unusual around here, but we actually know our kids.
This is easily overlooked. I've seen friends (both male and female, depending on how they've worked things out) totally disconnected from their kids and have seen behavioural and other things like dyslexia slip under the radar as they have been so busy working to pay for childcare that they've not been able to spend enough time with their kids. And you don't get it back.
Hannah makes some great points as well. MrsMC was happy to spend time with the kids but I turned down promotion opportunities to be around the kids more and especially to help MrsMC keep her challenging career going part-time, until eventually it was easier for me to be the part-timer.
That takes some getting your head around, even if you think you are an enlightened modern man, and now I am using my part time hours to support my ageing patents as well. At least I understand more about what women have been struggling with for decades
We had two in nursery for two years and it was savage on the income. That was only three days a week as my partner went part time. This prevented us from upsizing. Quite glad we didn’t to be fair now as the extra cash would’ve been sunk into a larger mortgage. Luckily we can absorb this rise in cost of living as we’ve been used to high outgoings. So glad we didn’t stretch ourselves.
For perspective, When we had ours (90’s) there was next to no financial ‘support’ and mortgage rates were in double figures. We had to scrape by too.
Well there was my parents utilised it .... Or was it just in Scotland. The very fact you could scrape by and had a mortgage suggests you were not on a minimum wages job back then.
As I said systems broken but also as mattccm suggests widely abused I don't have an answer for that but we should be helping to a minimal standard of living costs by way of ensuring the receiver has no choice by utilise it to the minimum standard .... Ie energy costs or food costs.
I have neighbours who have disabled children(requiring care) who are in fully funded housing and they cannot afford to heat their home right now due to the cost of living increases.
But shit I guess thats their fault for their choices....
Two kids 5 and 7. Planned.
Both work as nurses.
Both have taken turns at being part time.
My wife is now full time and the bigger earner with better job. She was part time for 7 years though at 28 hours.
I was full time but half NHS, half agency work as it afforded more flexibility.
I was in a managerial position before kids. I'm now at the bottom of ladder job role wise as it gives more flexibility and less pressure to commit to work's needs rather than the families.
I currently work 24 hours over two days plus two agency shifts a month to top up the wage.
At one point we paid £1000 a month in childcare. It was unsustainable.
In theory we could both work full time now they are both in school but I feel they need us to be around. They are young.
I'd also like to (desperate to) change career but as it stands I've got a lot of flexibility and days off.
Long story short:
Put career and earnings on hold for the kids but then we are around for them whilst they are young.
We are in the fortunate position where OH (teacher) was able to drop to a 0.5 contract on birth of number 1, that was 6 years ago and number 2 is now 2.
We are super fortunate in having grandparents nearby who do one day each, and then one day at nursery. It’s been extremely balanced - kids both know and love their grannies, some quality time with mum and some nursery experience.
Even one day a week at nursery is over £260 a month here, and we still have the problems of ill children and covering etc, despite the huge advantages mentioned above. We are desperately lucky and don’t forget it.
What worries me more is the behaviour I see in the workplace, which surely impacts people trying to maintain their family. One of my team is a full time working single mum (like my mum was), the lack of understanding and flexibility she’s experienced is truly appalling. Another is a full time working mum, and her partner works full time. The negative conscious/unconscious bias that seems to have existed about her dual role (whether that’s who should take time to look after the kids or the lack of flexibility and understanding to manage a balance) is also appalling.
Two kids 5 and 7. Planned.
Both work as nurses.
Saves on childcare I guess.
What should people do instead boriselbrus? Did your parents not work??
Not when we were preschool age. Quite uncommon when I was a kid to have two working parents (late 70’s and early 80’s). It’s a choice like anything else. I just think you’re missing out if you don’t spend that much time with your kids. Just my opinion, others differ.
We pay 600e/month for 5 days/week at the local commune creche. It’s open from 7am to 6pm too.
I think the times here are important we really struggled to find somewhere open @07:30 most places open at 08:00 and considering how common it is to have 08:00 start time I was amazed at this gap.
Quite uncommon when I was a kid to have two working parents (late 70’s and early 80’s).
We also are not in Kansas anymore toto.
It's crazy and most nurseries are close going under too.
My wife is danish and there childcare is pretty much free. Both parents always work and equality is therefore far greater. In turn it seems to be the reason for divorces being much more amicable because both parties are coming from an equal footing.
Just coming to the end of this - Jr is 4 this Summer and starts school this time round. Mum had a year off Maternity (becuase we'd saved up specifically to cover this beforehand).
He went to Nursery as soon as he was 1 - so hes had 3 full years.
We worked out that at £52 a day, 3 days a week was the right balance for us. We are lucky that we can lean on Grandparents for 1 day most weeks, and thus that allowed Mum to go to work p/t 4 days a week. It was basically cost neutral.
If she'd have stayed at home, we'd be about the same finanical situation now, but she would have basically curtailed her career. As it is, from September shes going back to work full time. Its also been really important that she spends time as her own functioning adult, not just 'mum' and has some friends from work outside of the usual school mum friends and family.
A few points:
30hrs free childcare: This is more complex than you think - I was expecting our bills to drop massively last year when it kicked in but it covers the 'childcare' aspect alone - so we still have to pay nursery for food/trips/consumables etc. And its ONLY during term time (38 weeks a year?). When the years bill was amortized across 12 months it wasnt as much of a discount as I first hoped.
School wraparound: When he starts in September, we STILL have to pay for wraparound childcare. As we will now both be 5 days a week, thats £75 to be able to drop him off a 7 not half 8, and pickup and 5-6pm.
Everyone is different - we are very lucky and have Grandparents available, I earn OK money, and crucially both do regular Mon-Friday hours and Mums job is term time only - so it fits the 'school life' very well. The majority of the costs over the 3 years have come out of my wage pre-tax. Shift work etc makes it much, much more complicated.
Get the information from the .Gov and your employers on what you can claim or get help with, and do the calulations. Splitting down the middle with part time working/part time stay at home parenting, for us, was the right answer.
Finally - there is a 'value' to Nursery. Nursery nowadays is a proper educational establishment with a curriculum. Even with mum teaching Primary age kids herself, Nursery has been brilliant. He loves it, the staff are great, he has had IMO a much, much more rounded upbringing from 1-4 than he would have being with the same parents all day every day.
Well there was my parents utilised it …. Or was it just in Scotland. The very fact you could scrape by and had a mortgage suggests you were not on a minimum wages job back then.
Who said anything about "minimum wages job"? If anyone is on a minimum wage job then or now paying someone more to look after their kids is just plain daft.
Oh, and when we had ours my OH got only 6 weeks full pay then 6 weeks half pay maternity and I was deducted both days I had off for their births from my holiday allowance. Had it easy...
Ok boomer.
What area is £2k a month for nursery, central London? I have friends in London who haven't seem to have wised up that the 'extra pay' doesn't cover the living costs. I'm just a 30 minute train ride from London and nursery is £1100 a month.
2 options
1. Dont have kids
2. Factor in 1 of you not working until the kids can go to school like my and many other parents did
I think our son cost us £1300 a month at nursery.
My wife loves her job and it would have been bad for her mentally and in terms of career to take a break (she didn't want to).
We put our son in full time and he loved it, seems to have transferred well to school too.
We did have the advantage of being able to shift our hours though so one of us could do a drop off and the other collect.
Still got to spend lots of time with him and we all did well from the arrangement as far as i can see. 2 happy parents and one will adjusted (apart from being a bit daft) nearly 7 yr old
We have 2 kids 2 years apart and had one year where both kids were in nursery 3 days a week. My wife and I both went down to 4 days a week, but it did hurt us for a while. we were paying 1k a month for a year but that was arout 2013 it was quite a bit cheaper than now, ours was just short of £40 a day, but we didn't earn anywhere near what we do now. Even then though I know there were nurseries in other areas, posh bits of Leeds, Roundhay ect. that were charging £70+ a day and they had waiting lists!!
My wife earns more than me and her career is better than mine, but I'm not sure I'd have managed as a full time stay at dad. I'd have given it a go if we needed to though. Actually I did for a while with my eldest when I was made redundant....
We knew that getting through that year financially would stand us in good stead so managed. We got them into the local primary school nursery as soon as we could though!
Let's be clear, this isn't the 70s/80s/90s. Average house prices are 8x average earnings. in the 70s it was almost 1:1, in the 80s 2:1 and in the 90s 3:1. It's now OVER 8:1. Unless you're living in an area with extremely cheap housing, were able to buy with inherited money or are in the privileged position to have a single income which is => 3x the average wages (or some combination of the above), 1 person staying off work, full time, for 3.5 years isn't a possibility.
There are other factors too. 2 kids, 2 years apart, that's 5.5years of no national insurance contributions, no pension contribution, no career growth, NOTHING for the person staying home. In a society which encourages people to go to Uni and be professionals, demonstrate career growth and commitment to it, this can seriously harm someone's long term career prospects. in the 70s/80s/90s, more work was blue collar and skilled white collar, not professionals.
What's more, is that people these days have to move around a lot more for work, which means that many families are geographically dispersed, so limited supports.
We've had two kids, both went to nursery, both made use of childcare vouchers and 15h (later 30h of free childcare), we have no family within 300 miles, for the first we had no maternity pay (my wife was just finishing her PhD) and my wife stayed home foe 18m with my son, we survived on £30k and savings...£24k a year post tax, pension and student loan repayment...rent (Bristol) was over £12k of that... We made the decision that I'd do compressed hours at work (40h in 3.5days was the contract) and that my wife would secure a job in her field for not less than £30k. Childcare was for 3.5 days, still an average of £1000 a month. We had a tiny amount more money, but my wife's career got started, my son got to socialise with other people and he still got to spend more than half his days with a parent. I've now done this for 8 years, through 2 kids. It's properly, debilitatingly ****ing hard. I've turned down jobs which pay more, but offer less flexibility, but it's the right balance of future planning, social need and career requirements. it's also fair...on everyone.
I see kids who go to school for the first time having spent their first 4 years with a limited social group and school is hard and miserable for them, they struggle with school trips, they're introverted, etc, this is especially true if they're an only child.
Nursery has benefits, but by God is it costly for full time, especially if wraparound care is required.
Not when we were preschool age. Quite uncommon when I was a kid to have two working parents (late 70’s and early 80’s). It’s a choice like anything else
It was also unnecessary to have two incomes to make ends meet in the 70s. House prices have risen so much relative to wages that the old nuclear family norm no longer works unless one parents has a very well paying job.
This is easily overlooked. I’ve seen friends (both male and female, depending on how they’ve worked things out) totally disconnected from their kids and have seen behavioural and other things like dyslexia slip under the radar as they have been so busy working to pay for childcare that they’ve not been able to spend enough time with their kids. And you don’t get it back.
To give the counter point, I'd say behavioural etc issues are far more likely to be picked up if the kids are spending time in an environment where they are constantly engaged with educational professionals who are on the look out for this kind of thing and have to constantly assess and log the kids development.
2 kids, 2 years apart, that’s 5.5years of no national insurance contributions, no pension contribution, no career growth, NOTHING for the person staying home.
you do get NICs as long as you claim certain child benefits.
We managed (10-15yrs ago) by my wife going part time from the age of 23. She has worked 20hrs per week ever since based around 3 days in the early period and now 4 days. That gave us the capacity to cover childcare split 2 days at nursery, 2 days with my wife and 1 day with grandparents. I dont remember it ever being too much of a stretch tbh.
I think one of the changes in society is both parents being important breadwinners has effected the balance. To lose 50% of my wifes income, although a pain, was a thoroughly worthwhile sacrifice. If it was a matter of me losing 50% of my income it would have really made things difficult.
My plan in the future is that we will do what my wifes parents did and help with any childcare we can. That is worth more to me than a newer or bigger car, a new bike or even a house for us to rattle around in when we are older.
Even if I was in the financial position I am in now back then, my wife would have still left her job to become a mother ( it is what she wanted ). She has not expressed any desire to go back to work
Ah right. Because your wife wanted to stay at home then it's fine that others should have to......
Mrs OTS went part time, I worked compressed hours (5 days in 4) and then I went self employed and dropped to 3.5 days a week. A combination of child minder and then nursery, but OTS Junior 2 HATED nursery to the point of making herself ill. It's tough, you have to be creative, but it's only transitory.
OTS Junior 1 is now 18 and heading to University in September - and the bank of mum and dad is opening for business again. 😃
Told the wife to give up work to look after the child
Wow.
Anyway, we managed through my wife working part time (her preference), me compressing my hours, maxing out childcare vouchers, and some grandparent help from time to time. We cut back our spending - cheap car, camping holidays etc. We were very fortunate that my wife has a well paid job so it was worth her working part time - often not the case on an average salary.
Quite uncommon when I was a kid to have two working parents (late 70’s and early 80’s).
Maybe I was unlucky, my parents had 5 jobs between them. I spent quite a bit of time being looked after by my grandmother and with my Mums friend babysitting.
40 quid a month here in Sweden . i reckon you should move.
Even if I was in the financial position I am in now back then, my wife would have still left her job to become a mother ( it is what she wanted ). She has not expressed any desire to go back to work
Ah right. Because your wife wanted to stay at home then it’s fine that others should have to……
Doesn't make it wrong though. My wife has all the credentials to quadruple her income overnight if she wished. Full time hours, a few extra qualifications (She runs circles around those that are qualified) and she would be sorted. Instead she wanted to look after our family in the best way she could that didn't necessarily mean financially. I have always said to her it her choice and i am glad she has made the decisions she has.
To give the counter point, I’d say behavioural etc issues are far more likely to be picked up if the kids are spending time in an environment where they are constantly engaged with educational professionals who are on the look out for this kind of thing and have to constantly assess and log the kids development.
I agree with this, nurserys/pre-school are there to not only look after the kids, but to engage them and teach them, from the time i've used them a couple of issues were picked up early by the nursery and parents were able to focus on that and get some help.
I also don't think you can do a like for like with childcare of now and childcare of the 80s or before, it was a different world then, both in family set up and in childcare/childminding, not to mention in regards to the ways of working in the UK.
