@boriselbrus are there facilities near you where you feel welcome when you want to wear dress and heels?
This is the kind of thing that concerns me. I had a mate at Uni from brixton, no big deal, but I went to a 'provincial' Uni shall we say, and he would often decline to come out if were going to certain pubs as 'his kind' (ie black) were not welcome. He never explicitly said it and being a thick twit I didn't cotton on for ages.
And it pissed me off when I found out that he felt he could not come with us. Needless to say we never went there again, but I was not brave enough to challenge those arsehole pubs and just ushered our social life into places that were more normal.
And there’s the rub. Is it kind to not care?
Not kind or unkind really, it just is. I know it’s not aimed at me but, I genuinely don’t care how somebody refers to themselves. Pretending to would be a form of lying and that, to me, is worse. I do care that boriselbus for example has a right to dress how they like and should be free to go wherever they choose without fear or intimidation.
Don’t think I’m making a good job of this as nuance isn’t my forte. I suppose a decent equivalent is when one of the hundreds of RIP threads appears on here. Full of people pretending to care about the death of some famous person. I guarantee a large percentage of them don’t give a shit but would never admit it for fear of coming across as not caring or not fitting in to some perceived social norm. Just strikes me as bizarre and dishonest.
@boriselbrus I just want to say thanks for your input and honesty. I appreciate that this thread could be a difficult read for you. Keep on being yourself and **** what others think. As long as you and those you love are happy just keep on keeping on.
boriselbrus
If I said to you there is a person sitting next to me who last Saturday went to watch a football match, then went to the pub, drunk 10 pints and had a fight and went to a strip club, what sort of mental picture do you have of this person? Is it male or female?
If I say my friend is a caring, sensitive person who loves ballet and art, hates sport and loves spa days and getting dressed up for a night out is your mental picture male or female?
dazh
although not sure what’s so controversial about attending a football match or watching sport) can you not see why I might be offended? I’m all for challenging stereotypes, but in this instance you seem to want to push this one and I don’t know why.
I'm sorta with Dazh ... that is I don't really see these as male or female in real life because you are describing caricatures.
You could almost be describing my ex manager in the first one, except for getting into a fight.. he'd probably just start one and slip away..
dazh repeat...
can you not see why I might be offended?
The issue for many is the stereotypes... not the pronoun.
Something to do with society expecting me to do/like certain things ... but on the flip side it's almost saying a caring sensitive person should hate sport and love spa days and getting dressed up for a night out
Its almost seems like a multiple choice ... pick one where we add a new category?
I kinda feel most of my mates of any gender would all end up being the third category.
Admittedly I'm biased as most of my mates (of any gender) like MTB's and wouldn't be my mates if they went to strip clubs and went out for 10 pints and a fight. I've only got limited tolerance for people who talk about football to me... TBH.
Sorry stevextc but I'm done on this one. This thread has taken a lot out of me and I have nothing more to give.
Be kind to each other. That is all.
Thanks for your time and patience.
well said.
Honestly, I don't really expect people to understand. I've been living it for 3 years now and I don't 'understand' it, but I accept and support, and I try to be the best I can at that. If we could all just do that it would make a difference
When I found out I was going to be a father I knew that I'd be making it up as I go along on stuff I had no idea about. This was not on my radar!
So is it a fact or your belief?
@cougar both?
See Baroness Falkner - the incoming chairwoman of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission said it was “entirely reasonable” for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men. Baroness Falkner of Margravine added it was a “freedom of belief” the commission was determined to protect.
“Someone can believe that people who self identify as a different sex are not the different sex that they self identify,” she said. “A lot of people would find this an entirely reasonable belief.”
Needed to read that last quote a few times to untangle it. Apparently a 'belief' in (scientific) facts is protected under the Equality Act...
Can I still call the wife the wife?
It is only a belief in the same way that I believe 1+1=2 and the earth revolves around the sun. It is a fact.
You can find out a persons sex from their DNA, when they can edit DNA to change sex, then maybe you can argue that a person can change sex. However it won't just be changing your DNA, it will be dealing with how your body reacts to a wholesale DNA change.
When a caterpillar turns into a butterfly , the material the caterpillar is made from turns into a goo of genetic material and other stuff, that rebuilds itself into a butterfly. The DNA remains unchanged as both structures are written into the beasties code.
I often wonder if the butterfly remember life as a caterpillar? Apparently all the cells break down, so there will be no old neurons left.
So a caterpillar/butterfly can change morphology, and go through and insane breakdown of cellular structure and rebuild itself. However, despite this incredible transformation it cannot change it sex, that is in its DNA and is immutable.
EDIT By the way a friend who is an expert on shellfish reproduction says that in his world , most of biology, gender and sex mean pretty much the same thing, what we should be talking about is 'gender expression' or 'gender presentation'.
woop I've just been sent this.
Many butterfly and moth species also host Wolbachia bacteria, which are able to transform genetic males into reproductive females, as well as cause females to produce young without insemination -- though none of these conditions are visibly apparent at the caterpillar stage.
But apparently you can feed them antibiotics, kill the bacteria and they change back again.
I genuinely don’t care how somebody refers to themselves.
Maybe you should?
Are we here now a step behind where we were with the evolution of racism?
1) I don't like brown people,
2) I'm woke, I don't see colour,
3) I absolutely see colour and recognise the problems they face.
We're bang into 2) territory here, right?
most of biology, gender and sex mean pretty much the same thing, what we should be talking about is ‘gender expression’ or ‘gender presentation’.
No they don't, not in evolutionary biology, mammalian biology and human biology. A while back biologists went 'sure we'll use gender in place of sex', just to be 'polite'. This can be seen in old research papers, they didn't realise the impilcations of going along with the terminology. Nowadays the terms are used much more carefully as to not conflate and confuse. The sex diamorphism and implications on anatomy, physiology were taken 'as read'. Again, in the current climate science is having to reiterate and explain what was taken for granted...
Are we here now a step behind where we were with the evolution of racism?
1) I don’t like brown people,
2) I’m woke, I don’t see colour,
3) I absolutely see colour and recognise the problems they face.We’re bang into 2) territory here, right?
this is an informal logical fallacy known as poisoning the well.
You have made a definition of points 1-3 and then anyone that disagrees with you must be unevolved.
How about we consider that your timeline is wrong?
A better timeline would be:
1) I don’t like brown people,
2) I absolutely see colour and recognise the problems they face.
3) I’m woke, I don’t see colour,
Which is how it should be, once we erase the problems coloured people face, we won't need to see colour other than for its beauty and diversity.
So the people that you see as part of the problem, your unevolved stage 2ers, are actually ahead of you and are acting out the change they want to see.
It is only a belief in the same way that I believe 1+1=2 and the earth revolves around the sun. It is a fact.
You're conflating facts with theories with hypotheses with beliefs and you need to be a tad more specific in the language you use if you want to get your point across. Could you try again?
clark, I just read wikipedia on gender and it seems they do - depending on context.
In a biological context gender is sex, in a woke context it isn't. And so on. the fact that we need a 20k word web page to discuss the understanding of the word gender is quite a testament.
As I said before I am happy to separate them, I was just pointing out what my friends in marine biology think of sex and gender.
To me it doesn't matter. we have the word sex, why do we need two words that mean the same thing, gender is evolving to mean something other than sex, that what language does.
How about we consider that your timeline is wrong?
...
Which is how it should be,
It absolutely should be. Unfortunately it's not how it's panned out thus far. Maybe the progression should be a combination of yours and mine:
1) I don’t like brown people,
2) I don’t see colour,
3) I absolutely see colour and recognise the problems they face,
4) We've sorted this now and colour no longer matters.
Ditto non-binary etc which was the point in the first place. I long for the day when someone is gender-fluid or gay or trans or vegan or Buddhist or Muslim or atheist or a goth or has green hair and the rest of the world goes, "meh."
he rest of the world goes, “meh.
A lot of people on here are trying to do that, hence my "I don't care" comment.
I care if people are being oppressed or sad, but I don't care if they chose to wear dresses or not, as in it does not make me angry or sad or happy, why should it, its just the clothes they wear. If you came to work in jeans tomorrow, it would be unremarkable, just as if boriselbrus came to work in heels and a dress.
Wiki (and myself) are not infallible. Wiki content is often skewed by 'interested parties'. I'm just biased 🙂
The use of incorrect 'gender' in place of 'sex' seeped into science a while back. Noone realised the implications of the incorrect use of the words. This is why we need to be explicit in what we mean when using them. Sex - biological, observable, falsifiable, male and female. Gender (in humans) - social norms, expected behaviours, personality, masculine, feminine and anything inbetween or either side.
Gender never meant sex. It was only invented 70 years ago. Sex has been around somewhat longer...
Well I agree with your definition, but as I said - From wiki-
In other contexts, including some areas of the social sciences, gender includes sex or replaces it.[1][2] For instance, in non-human animal research, gender is commonly used to refer to the biological sex of the animals
The problem with most animas is that they generally don't have a gender expression that disagrees with their sex. (Most)
Its not really a big deal is it, in biology they mean sex, in other areas they don't, as Cougar said 'meh'.
Maybe you should?
But I don’t and to pretend I do would be massively dishonest and that, in my opinion, is worse. Also your three stage thing is bollocks by the way. How a person chooses to refer to themselves doesn’t register for me. Knock yourself out, refer to yourself how you want. Wear what you like, do what you like as long as you’re not causing harm I genuinely don’t care.
If you’re one of the odious pricks that would bully, intimidate or otherwise make someone’s life hell because of how they represent themselves, what colour they are etc then I’ll jump all over you. That would somehow make me the wrong one in your analogy because I don’t care about pronouns?
What your doing is making the assumption that I should care about something because you do. I find that odd. I almost feel like apologising for not caring. Should I pretend to care what people want to call themselves? Those last two things would be absurd in my view.
What your doing is making the assumption that I should care about something because you do. I find that odd. I almost feel like apologising for not caring. Should I presented to care what people want to call themselves? Those last two things would be absurd in my view.
I think I feel this too. This goes back to when I mentioned fascism before, the thrust of which is either you think like us or you are bad/wrong/invalid. It's actually in plain sight in your language Cougar.
(edit maybe you were in bad mood on the previous page in the text funkmaster refers to, as your last post above was more equanimous, have you had a drink?)
@5plusn8 yes, sloppy use of terminology that doesn't have impications for shellfish but it is a big deal for us 'Great Apes'.
yup
A lot of people on here are trying to do that, hence my “I don’t care” comment.
Point is, and I'm sorry but I think this is Really Important,
You cannot go directly from 2) to 4) without passing through and acknowledging 3).
Dismissing things is laudable but, well, it's dismissive. I've been here before and mistakenly made exactly the same erroneous arguments. The answer to "I don't care" is "well you should, or shush."
You can not care about someone's gender / sexuality. That's amazing 👏. But step forward, you can still be concerned about the rest of society giving them a kicking.
Is this me misunderstanding, are we at angry dolphins? Sorry if so.
The problem with phrases like 'I don't care' is that they mean very different things to different people. "I don't care" could mean - "I will go along with your wishes as to how you want to be addressed and won't challenge it because I really don't care". It could also mean "I don't care what you want to be addressed as, I know what I think and will act accordingly".
To me the correct minimum approach for everyone is to care enough to make the effort to remember how they prefer to be addressed regardless if you understand or if it's something you are specifically interested in. To me, that is caring. Are you able to 'care' that much Mr F?
Wait, what, wow, are we now arguing against empathy?
I'm leaving this discussion and going to bed for tonight.
I will go along with your wishes as to how you want to be addressed and won’t challenge it because I really don’t care”
Pretty much this which would, in my parlance, mean I don’t care. It literally has no bearing or I’ll affect on me or anyone which means it wouldn’t raise a care. Is this actually difficult for people to understand? I guess this make me a monster and part of the problem in some people's eyes. Conversely if I were to come across an instance of someone abusing an individual for asking to be referred to in a specific way whether it be to said individual or somebody else I’d absolutely step in and give them a piece of my mind
It's not hard to understand. And that's kind of a patronising accusation.
Rather, it'd just be nice if you'd arrived at that conclusion because you did care rather than because you didn't.
Right, bed.
Pretty much this which would, in my parlance, mean I don’t care. It literally has no bearing or affect on me which means it wouldn’t raise a care. Is this actually difficult for people to understand?
I'd just call it poor or deliberately evasive use of language, and an easy one for you to fix, you know - if you cared.
If you are able to adjust your default habitual use of language to accommodate someone and would step in to defend an abused party, you do care by the way. Sorry if this disappoints your desire to be Mr Angry of Sodbury.
But I don’t! Why is that so hard for an intelligent adult to come to terms with? Different people have different values and views shocker. Would you rather me be on the other end of your care-o-meter? Hating and fearing people who don’t conform to socially defined norms? Is honesty and ambivalence not an option? I either care about everything or I’m somehow in the wrong. That’s just laughable and a bit disturbing if it’s the case.
To clarify - the debate is about whether I care what or who an individual wants to be referred to as. I genuinely don’t give a shit. That’s not angry at all and I can’t fathom how you don’t see that. I’m not deliberately muddying language to any degree. Do I care how people are treated? Absolutely but that’s a different question to the one I’m answering.
I genuinely don’t give a shit.
Of course you do. You care enough to acquiesce with their request and to defend their rights when being abused for that desire. That might not register more than a tremor on the care-o-meter, but it's there. Sorry.
Really, you have some sort of doorway in to my mind and can see my thoughts? Would you be happier if I said I was ambivalent? Caring about people suffering abuse is not the same as not being bothered by somebody requesting how I refer to them. Unless it’s one of those people insisting I refer to them by their full name. They’re getting shortened!
People love to put people down here don't they, Funkmaster is not exhibiting a lack of empathy, merely that its probably none of his business if someone wears a dress or not, I feel the same way. hence I don't care, as in it is unremarkable.
If they are in pain, then I care, and I warrant funkmaster does too, these are very different and quite obvious versions of care/not care.
His I don't care is the same as Cougars meh.
Hence I am starting to think cougar and convert are trolling you funkmaster. cougar knows very well what you mean.
his business if someone wears a dress
You do have a bit of a fixation on dresses as some sort of marker for non-binary.
Just for you information, of the dozen folk I've spent time working with who identify as non-binary none of them wear dresses. Or skirts for that matter. I'd try and get past that one if you can.
I genuinely don’t give a shit.
hence I don’t care, as in it is unremarkable.
We get it, you don’t care. Now stop talking about yourselves.
Lol, it’s all good and like most debates on here would be much simpler in person. You’ve pretty much summed up what I think in your above post. The oddest thing for me is that a lot of threads on here devolve in to the whole empathy thing. Not everyone is empathetic though and that doesn’t make them a bad person. Empathy almost seems to be a STW must have for any debate. Epic levels of empathy 😀
We get it, you don’t care. Now stop talking about yourselves.
No, you get it. I’m still not sure on a few others. It’s almost like we’re worse than the people who are overflowing with hatred as we don’t possess the prerequisite levels of care to be valid.
Now stop talking about yourselves.
Indeed 🙂
People love to put people down here don’t they
Indeed. It seems 'be kind' only is only intended for some people.
8 pages long now. I see Negativity Bias is playing it's part once again 😕
Not all as cultured or as civilized as we would believe ourselves to be eh 😕
Just popping up to say that I've found this thread really helpful - thanks to all who have contributed!
For me, 5plus8 and Boriselbrus have really helped develop my understanding - which was in a "holding pattern" of being aware of the issue, but reluctant to engage further because of the typical temperature of this kind of conversation.
For what my opinion is worth - it seems to me that the wider debate is being held back by both sides conflating gender and sex. I think softening gender stereotypes (based on sex) over time is both achievable and inevitable, as people accept that there is not really any meaningful connection between these two things. The issue of an individual changing their sex is much more contentious, and I think this is actually at the heart of most of the strong feeling and confusion from the wider public - rather than the subject of gender.
So yeah, thanks!
it seems to me that the wider debate is being held back by both sides conflating gender and sex.
This is an excellent point I am sure that most pro trans people do know and realise the difference between sex and gender but there could be plenty who don't. I think I only consider that its 'anti' trans types who can't tell the difference, so thank for pointing that out, I'll remember that in future.
If this conflation is explained/resolved I think many more of the 'anti' types would be pro.
As for anyone who dislikes/bullies/laughs at men/women (sex) dressing in non gender specific clothing and behaving in a non gender specific way, well we need to bring them in gently. They have had their own norm's challenged and it scares them, if we employ name calling, mickey taking etc back will not help or change their point of view.
Be the change you want to see.
Sorry stevextc but I’m done on this one. This thread has taken a lot out of me and I have nothing more to give.
That's totally understandable and I wish you all the best ...
If you do read this my point really is I think you are a lot more normal (should such a thing exist) than the caricatures.
Just popping up to say that I’ve found this thread really helpful – thanks to all who have contributed!
A massive +1, at times I’m astounded by people’s bravery and ability to communicate such intelligent debate.
Indeed. It seems ‘be kind’ only is only intended for some people.
(As I said I would I’ve followed and re read what is amazing thread for the most part, but sadly I feel I’m unable to contribute for this reason, which is a point not limited to this individual thread but hangs on people’s user names. Various people have left STW or post in limited ways on this forum due to what is ultimately peoples general inability to treat others with fairness and empathy)
But I don’t! Why is that so hard for an intelligent adult to come to terms with?
Because you're taking the time to post on this thread arguing (and being condescending) about it? If you genuinely don't care, why are you even reading this?
Unless it’s one of those people insisting I refer to them by their full name. They’re getting shortened!
If they've politely requested that you use a preferred version of their name and you're deliberately using a different one just to spite them for no other reason than "they have a preference," that says more about you than it does them I'm afraid.
Names (and pronouns, ooh, veering dangerously back on topic) are important to people, they're deeply personal. How would you feel if I persistently referred to you as "it"? Constantly, daily, and deliberately after you'd asked me not to. Because you'd asked me not to even. Still don't care?
Because you’re taking the time to post on this thread arguing (and being condescending) about it? If you genuinely don’t care, why are you even reading this?
For the record you started with being condescending I simply followed suit. So I can’t join in a debate because you say so? I find the topic interesting and learned a lot from a few posts. The conversation took a few turns, as do all threads and the input from some, especially boriselbus, was enlightening. I just have my opinion on one part of the overal debate.
If they’ve politely requested that you use a preferred version of their name and you’re deliberately using a different one just to spite them for no other reason than “they have a preference,” that says more about you than it does them I’m afraid.
I appreciate nuance isn’t a thing on a forum. You think I was being serious with this comment, I wasn’t.
Anyway, take care people. Live your life how you see fit and don’t be scared to express yourself. You’ll find a lot of people have your back and will support you or god forbid be ambivalent and just let you get on with it. The people who would attempt to make your life miserable aren’t worth your time and energy. We’ll never be rid of them but hopefully their number will reduce with education and people speaking out against them.
Have a good day all
