And, yes, long overdue, thank you to boriselbrus for sharing, I don't expect that was easy.
I'm fortunate enough to know many diverse people but I've not come across anyone of your particular make-up before so it was fascinating. It sorta puts me in mind a little of Eddie Izzard only, uh, more Izzard than Izzard? Self-describes as an "action transvestite," I don't think he's actually come out as gender fluid though? But he's described similar, that he has Girl days and Boy days.
Argggghhhh
And that's the whole point!
If I said to you there is a person sitting next to me who last Saturday went to watch a football match, then went to the pub, drunk 10 pints and had a fight and went to a strip club, what sort of mental picture do you have of this person? Is it male or female?
If I say my friend is a caring, sensitive person who loves ballet and art, hates sport and loves spa days and getting dressed up for a night out is your mental picture male or female?
We're indoctrinated with these stereotypes from the moment we are born. Look at boys toys and girls toys. I wanted a Barbie doll with lots of clothes to dress her in. I got an Action man with a ****ing tank!
They aren't my "ridiculous stereotypes", they are societies stereotypes. And for most people that is what defines gender. Men have penis's and behave in a certain way. But if I behave and dress in a way that is normally defined by society as normal for female, then what? If my penis then gets cut off in a freak cycling accident? Am I still male or female? Or is there something in the middle? Something less binary maybe?
About ten years ago I had a conversation with my colleagues that went like this:
"Hey boriselbrus there's a few of us going to se the new Bond film on Saturday, do you fancy it?"
"Cheers for the offer, but I'm not really into Bond - to much violence and misogyny for me, anyway I'm off to the ballet on Saturday to see Swan Lake"
"You ****ing poof. Here Rob, this queer prefers ballet to Bond! You gonna dress up in a little tutu to go are you?"
(I worked with some lovely people...)
Would that conversation have happened if I'd been female?
So spare me the crap about "my" ridiculous stereotypes. I long to live in a world where everyone can be who they want to be without feeling they have to behave and dress in the way that society expects.
And I didn't bring Bowie into the conversation either. Nor was I the one who just had to bring up alleged paedophilia. And for the record I'm not a fan of him or his music.
And, yes, long overdue, thank you to boriselbrus for sharing, I don’t expect that was easy.
I’m fortunate enough to know many diverse people but I’ve not come across anyone of your particular make-up before so it was fascinating. It sorta puts me in mind a little of Eddie Izzard only, uh, more Izzard than Izzard? Self-describes as an “action transvestite,” I don’t think he’s actually come out as gender fluid though? But he’s described similar, that he has Girl days and Boy days.
Thank you. And no it's not been easy. I've been been in tears several times whilst typing, but I need to try and help people understand. I understand that it's a massive challenge to how many have always viewed the world.
Please just be kind to each other.
Eddie Izzard is a massive heroine of mine and she has recently said she wants people to use female pronouns when referring to her, but wouldn't be too bothered if people slipped up.
I'm losing it a bit now. Probably need to take a break and watch Death Star Canteen.
Thank you.
"That's Geoff Vader that is..."
Eddie Izzard is a massive heroine of mine and she has recently said she wants people to use female pronouns when referring to her, but wouldn’t be too bothered if people slipped up.
Speaking as a big fan of Izzard, I was not aware of that so thank you. I deliberately said 'he' because I was under the impression that that was the preference, it wasn't a slip-up.
“That’s Geoff Vader that is…”
Curiously, my inner monologue always had that as "Jeff Vader."
Re the lgbtq club at the school...
Two years later nearly a quarter of her year had come along due to being LGBTQ+ Over 10% were identifying as gender queer. Young people now have the confidence to come out as who they are and generally be accepted.
That's a really interesting stat...
I've literally no idea what the background figures would be as I guess less people would openly answer on a census etc etc...
Do we reckon 25% lgbtq is kinda the global figure?
My OH is from Brighton, and clearly that area attracts a bigger %age than, say, Dorset...!
DrP
If I said to you there is a person sitting next to me who last Saturday went to watch a football match, then went to the pub, drunk 10 pints and had a fight and went to a strip club, what sort of mental picture do you have of this person?
I dunno, someone who hasn't grown up and needs some help? I get that the gender most associated with this sort of stereotype is male but as someone who confidently identifies as male and also despises that sort of behaviour (although not sure what's so controversial about attending a football match or watching sport) can you not see why I might be offended? I'm all for challenging stereotypes, but in this instance you seem to want to push this one and I don't know why.
Boris will hardly be the first here to come up with a flawed analogy. I do it like daily. The problem isn't the analogy content.
As much as you might not like the stereotype it doesn't reduce its validity. And by getting all butthurt over the stereotype you appear (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that it's not intentional) to be seeking to denigrate the very significant lived experiences that Boriselbrus has shared with us.
Re the lgbtq club at the school…
Do they allow everyone, LGBTQ+ but also supporters thereof? That might skew figures.
When I was at Uni I hung out quite a bit in the Multi-Faith Centre, as a confirmed atheist. Reason being a) I had a number of friends of various persuasions in there and b) they had the best coffee on campus. (-:
My OH is from Brighton, and clearly that area attracts a bigger %age than, say, Dorset…!
I wonder idly how much of that is 'a bigger percentage' and how much is a bigger percentage who are sufficiently comfortable in their environment to admit it?
(although not sure what’s so controversial about attending a football match or watching sport
It's not controversial and there is nothing wrong with watching football. It's just that only 19% of attendees at premiership matches are female.
https://premierskillsenglish.britishcouncil.org/skills/read/stories/mans-game#:~:text=They%20looked%20at%20attendance%20numbers,or%20other%20ethnic%20minority%20groups.
Let me spell it out for you. If you attend sports events, get drunk and have a fight, or go to a strip club you are overwhelmingly more likely to be male. That does not mean all men do these things or that no women or non binary do these things. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
So quit with the outrage or I will kill you with a tray.
As much as you might not like the stereotype it doesn’t reduce its validity.
Wow that's a dangerous game to play.
Let's play insert your own prejudices!
[...] are good at maths.
[...] don't like vaccines.
[...] are obese.
[...] are only interested in money.
[...] are good at running.
[...] are more likely to have HIV.
I'm guessing most people would put the same stereotyped groups between the tags. Does that mean a stereotype is 'valid' or does it mean it's actually pervasive, dangerous and potentially self-fulfilling?
Is "stereotypes" perhaps a discussion for a separate thread? Feels to me like it's turning into a segue too far on a topic which is fairly emotive and serious.
I wonder idly how much of that is ‘a bigger percentage’ and how much is a bigger percentage who are sufficiently comfortable in their environment to admit it?
Understandably, many people move to the area (Brighton) partly because they want to be in an environment where they can be more comfortable to “admit it”… (or more likely, not have to limit how and when they “show it”).
And, yes, long overdue, thank you to boriselbrus for sharing, I don’t expect that was easy.
Seconded. (Or thirded, or whatever we're up to.)
Re the number of people identifying as LGBTQIA+: it's likely to increase as it becomes more accepted in the same way as more people are left handed now than in the (recentish) past.
Well that’s the point of the joke – if no-one can place limits on the number of genders and who can identify as them, then who’s to say that any such statements are not valid?
Ah, so the ‘joke’ therefore, is really a service to plausibility. Gottit.
If instead it elicits a response of “oh FFS, really, again?” then it’s probably best kept to yourself.
But how else can normal people keep these attack helicopter unicorn rabbits from just taking the piss?
/satire
Here’s some more evidence that such humour is actually doing it’s job and ‘keeping a lid on’ the ‘slippery slope’ of implausible genders/gender-nouns
/satire/
(Video NSFW)
As you can see, it’s having the desired effect 🙄
What the hell is the attack helicopter thing about? Is it just Michael Bay messaging that person?
That’s fair enough. I’ve lived for it for 49 years and I don’t understand it. The real problem is in defining gender.
This is where I get lost too. I generally understand the idea of birth sex and gender being at odds, so trans etc I get. Intersex I struggle with a bit
Non-binary thoug just sounds like people. No one fits neatl into a given spot on a continuum. I may be missing something crucial but it just seems like people are different. My likes and dislikes would put me in a number of places on the continuum simultaneously. I don't think I'm non binary though. I must admit I hadnt thought of it to the degree that boris had described (your expression of a need to present a certain way is very human, thank you). It is alos complicated by the fact that gender norms are fluid and have changed across time and cultures (there are times throughout history where the height of masculinity would appear very feminine to us today).
So, yeah, glad I'm not alone in not truly understanding some of this. If nothing else this thread has served a purpose in that.
Is it just Michael Bay messaging that person?
Well, a few people will think that they are genuinely being funny. Pity them. The others are hiding behind alleged humour to belittle people and bully them. See also “I identify as a unicorn”, etc, etc.
I think the "I identify as xxxx" seemingly as a joke is actually an important part of the discussion.
Rachel Dolezal identified as black, despite being found out as demonstrably white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
The main thrust of the argument was that she could never understand what it was like to be black as she had no lived experience (in Dolezals case this is arguable as she had some experience, but for me as a middle aged anglo saxon there is zero lived experience as a black person).
One could argue that many men who have lived experience through puberty and adulthood as men, can in no way understand what women experience in terms of discrimination and 2nd class citizenship (this is unarguable fact so don't try, there is massive evidence that even today women are discriminated against).
So it is apparent that many feminists object to people, who were once male sex, entering their space. I get this.
But I also get that gender identity is a construct, however gender and sex are not the same thing, despite the fact that gender has been based upon sex in general.
When gender is considered as a construct then it has no meaning in the sense of sex, in fact you could argue that gender evolved as a tool of oppression against women.
The problem is that the erasure of gender is also leading to the erasure of women as a protected sexual characteristic....
So my issue with the concept that after hormones and surgery a person who was once a man is now a woman, is that I don't think it has any meaning.
They physical sex of that person has not changed, no amount of surgery can do that and most of us cannot tell the difference between female sex and female gender.
So the jokes about "identify as a unicorn" have some validity, because no amount of hormones and surgery will turn me from a white anglo saxon man into a black man, or into an asian man, so many people cannot accept that hormones and surgery will turn the male sex into female, or vice versa.
This does not mean that we cannot be kind.
If you want to wear what you like, have sex with any consenting adult, and be treated as a different gender, I am happy to do this.
But I don't think that trans persons and trans allys have the right to force us to think that they have changed sex, or to accept that sex change in certain protected spaces (sports, bathrooms, womens crisis centres etc).
There needs to be a third space (or possible more).
There is no erasure of gender. You are still you
I meant erasure of female sex as a protected category.
Much legislation and organisation has now removed the word woman from tis documents, they use other terms so as not to upset the trans lobby.
The people of the female sex find this concerning.
The problem is that the erasure of gender is also leading to the erasure of women…
I see you have since edited this 🙂
SUrely the problem is the use of 'gender' as replacement for 'sex' is leading to the erasure of women?
I find it also helps if you disaggregate LBGTQIA+ into sub groups.
LGB - sexual orientation
TQ - identity etc.
Also within the 'T' there are quite different individuals/groups
- young adolescent girls entering puberty and struggling with major bodily changes, sense of self, peer pressure and sexuality wondering if they are lesbian or really boys
- older males looking to live their true feminine self.
One size doesn't fit all...
SUrely the problem is the use of ‘gender’ as replacement for ‘sex’ is leading to the erasure of women?
Yeah, that's a better way of saying what I mean.
I agree with the rest of what you say too. By talking about one are of this topic, I do not mean to ignore or redefine other areas.
I also appreciate that my opinion makes me vile in some peoples eyes. This was ever the case.
Do you think people can transition @5plusn8 ? Do you think that we should accept people who do not want to be labelled as being one of two binary genders ?
Do you think people can transition?
If that means change sex? Then no. It is an immutable physical characteristic.
If it means something else, well then probably yes, but I'd need to know what you mean..
Do you think that we should accept people who do not want to be labelled as one of two binary genders?
Yes. Be whatever gender identifier you like.
I've made both these things clear above.
There is no hate, its just a philosophical question about sex.
So people can change their gender, and not everyone fits into one of two binary genders? Agreed.
What was your “unicorn” post about then?
If that means change sex? Then no. It is an immutable physical characteristic.
That rather depends on how you define 'sex' which is actually a bit more complicated than most people think.
Shall we keep this thread away from sex, intersex, and definitions of sex? The OP was very much about gender, specifically “non-binary”, and up to now the discussion has been about gender identity.
So people can change their gender, and not everyone fits into one of two binary genders? Agreed.
To be more accurate, you don't actually have a gender in the fist place, its a social construct, other people label people with genders. So call your self whatever suits your current cultural leaning.
The problem here is that your gender construct was once derived from your sex. So people think (including me in the past) that they are the same thing. Maybe the were once, but they now are not, probably a good thing, as I said before gender as a concept is used to control people, what they wear and do, what role they have etc etc.
Now that we are trying to move to equality it has less and less relevance. Women can and should do many/most of the things men do and vice versa. So why should we define people by there perceived societal role, its all a bit victorian. (why should we define them at all)
There physical traits, which are immutable, but in an equal society it ends there.
I am male, I am white, I am 170ish tall, I'm xxx kg overweight, I am currently at my desk.
Anything else is a cultural definition and is utterly trans-able.
As for your other question I don't understand it, so can't answer.
That rather depends on how you define ‘sex’ which is actually a bit more complicated than most people think.
It does not depend on that at all.
I don't think that its the case that there are more than 2 sexes (if that's what you are referring to). In any case its a red herring, as those who are not xx and xy are a very small no in society. And whatever sex they are if you accept there may not be only M and F, is also immutable, so essentially, even if you are right, so what, they can't change sex either.
https://news.cnrs.fr/articles/how-many-sexes-are-there#:~:text=Based%20on%20the%20sole%20criterion,produces%20small%20gametes%20(spermatozoa).
https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/
Shall we keep this thread away from sex, intersex, and definitions of sex? The OP was very much about gender, specifically “non-binary”, and up to now the discussion has been about gender identity.
They were and still are strongly intertwined, you currently cannot consider one without the other, and even if in the future we do manage to completely separate them, we will still have to talk about what once was in order for people to understand other people.
That rather depends on how you define ‘sex’ which is actually a bit more complicated than most people think.
It is both simpler and more complex.
There are 2 biological sexes, we call them male and female. This is derived from millenia of observation of the animal world where 2 adults contribute parts of their makeup (genome) to create new life a.k.a. sexual reproduction. All mammals do this. The male is architected (phenotype) to produce the s*erm, the female the egg. Underlying this definition there are a range of anatomies and physiologies e.g. sex chromosomes, some argue there are 6 sexes based on chromosomes. The reality is those with a Y are male, without are female. Intersex is an unfortunate old term used to describe people with Differences in Sexual Development, these are still male or female people and should not be brought into gender discussions.
The OP was very much about gender, specifically “non-binary”, and up to now the discussion has been about gender identity.
They want to be non-binary, Yes? OK that's fine as people are just being themselves etc, I have no problem with that.
But when they encounter each other, what next?
One person insists on being defined and treated as non-binary, while the other person wants to be defined and treated as macho macho man/woman whatever ... all being themselves.
Who should give way?
Why would anyone need to give way? Can’t everyone just be who they want to be and do what they want to do? As long as you’re not hurting anyone just be who or what makes you happy. My only caveat is don’t expect everyone else to live by the rules you do. Accept that people are different and get on with it
One person insists on being defined and treated as non-binary, while the other person wants to be defined and treated as macho macho man/woman whatever … all being themselves.
Who should give way?
yeah I can't see a problem here either. I wanna be macho, you wanna be non binary, why does my choice affect yours?
I may be missing something crucial but it just seems like people are different.
Correct.
This does not mean that we cannot be kind.
Correct.
But I don’t think that trans persons and trans allys have the right to force us to think that they have changed sex,
Is this being kind?
They want to be non-binary, Yes? OK
I wanna be macho, you wanna be non binary, why does my choice affect yours?
Because you're still labouring under the misconception that it's a choice. No-one "wants" to be non-binary, they just are and the lucky ones come to deal with that. The unlucky ones end up as a statistic.
yeah I can’t see a problem here either.
Maybe you should do some reading. The last six pages might be a starting block.
Because you’re still labouring under the misconception that it’s a choice. No-one “wants” to be non-binary, they just are and the lucky ones come to deal with that. The unlucky ones end up as a statistic.
I am sorry but you have conflated my response with chjewkw statement.
However I don't really care if it is a choice or not, you still have the right to be whatever, whether you choose it or have no choice. It is not really relevant to me, I do not object to any gender or non gender identification so don't try and shoehorn me into your dislike.
Is this being kind?
How is it unkind? Its just a statement of fact.
Facts are neither kind or unkind. So if I believe sex is immutable as a a fact, if that upset other people what can I do about it?
Womens sport for example. I consider the words man/woman and plural men/women in this case to refer to the sex of the people taking part.
I watch a lot of womens sport, eg I find womens tennis better than mens, more rallies.
If a person who had been through puberty as a man played against women, for me that demeans the competition. No amount of social justice will make me think that two women played tennis.
See Rachel Mckinnon, Fallon Fox etc.
So you can't make me think that two women played that game.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.
For years we have defined everyone as male or female. Binary. That's what leads to the stereotypes.
But so many don't fit into the binary definitions. Hence non-binary. Simple.
What I've really liked on this thread is the number who have said they don't understand, but still feel everyone should be free to dress and express themselves in the way they want.
That's all I've ever wanted. I don't need people to understand how I am, just accept me for who I am.
I'm not a murderer, I'm not violent, I pay my taxes and love my friends and family. I'm kind to animals and try to lead a good life. In so many ways ways I'm "normal", just like most of you on this forum. I just need to be able to wear a dress, heels and makeup to the ballet without getting my head kicked in. And thanks to famous people coming out and making it more normal, in the last few years I've finally felt able to do that.
Be kind to each other.
(edit) totally agree with you on the sports thing as well, as does my partners daughter and virtually all her friends.
5plusn8, Why are you talking about sex when the rest of us are talking about gender? Odd.
What I’ve really liked on this thread is the number who have said they don’t understand, but still feel everyone should be free to dress and express themselves in the way they want.
That’s all I’ve ever wanted. I don’t need people to understand how I am, just accept me for who I am
I agree, you are you and that's that. Anyone else definition of you or even attempt to define you is utterly irrelevant.
True bravery to say what you say. I admire you.
I don’t really care
And there's the rub. Is it kind to not care?
Facts are neither kind or unkind. So if I believe sex is immutable as a a fact,
So is it a fact or your belief?
