To say people like Michael Dunlop downplay or underestimate the risks is nonsense.
They don't downplay the risks to themselves (an ability toot think about them is essential), but they discount the future implications to their families. I'm a big fan and know that nothing will stop racers racing, it's why they are successful in the first place!
How did you react when Alison Hargreaves died on K2 pursuing her dream? And like the Dunlops, there is continued family tragedy on her story too.
True, I get it – to a point. I guess there is something in there about the rate/likelihood of death. I know there are a lot more riders at the TT in any one year than most would imagine but what’s the participant/death rate of the event? And how would that compare to the BPW participant/death rate? There is a sane cut off for most people – I suppose where we differ is what that cut off is.
Like i said, I'm not against it, I am in awe of it (just wondering how they can ride bikes when their balls are that big). But at the risk of upsetting Darthpunk further, the point is that all pastimes have a risk-reward ratio, and sunday league or dog walking have the health benefits to potential serious injury balance firmly on the benefits side, so society deems them ok (NHS has said time and again that they support eg: MTBing)
IOM TT - I don't know how you calculate the overall (societal) cost - benefit ratio, tourism and industry vs costs of treatments and so on. It is I suspect very different on the balance, but still deemed acceptable.Which is fine, I'm not saying to stop it, just wondering in a Devil's advocate way where the line is for 'they know the risks, let them get on with it'. If there were 30 deaths a year, would it still be OK? 300?
On the subject of riders being killed.
Too many times its being romanticized, but these are people, with families, children and the loss must still be a terrible burden.
We dont here the same said for cyclists killed on roads and in traffic. No 'They died doing something they loved' doesn't really cut it does it.
Guessing all of the accommodation is booked out.
Camping?
There is camping obviously, but the islanders themselves put up visitors by renting out their kids or spare bedrooms to them.
Plus its a set fee so theres no profiteering. I got 2 nights in a family home in port of St Mary, and i think it was a tenner per night.
Those kids bunkbeds are bloody short though 😆
Plus its a set fee so theres no profiteering. I got 2 nights in a family home in port of St Mary, and i think it was a tenner per night.
As described to me by a friend who has been a number of times - the homeowners get a substantial council tax (or their equivilent) discount for doing this.
Implying the tourism cash brought to the island is clearly worth it in their eyes. So I dont see it being halted any time soon.
I'd heard £40million to the local economy over the two weeks. I'd imagine that the amount of 'cash' changing hands would be another significant amount. Say one thing about the Isle of Man, they like their cash payments.
I've been watching the coverage on the TT+ app,£14.99 it's an absolute bargain.
Hicky is obviously the man to beat,Dean Harrison,Davey Todd & Connor Cummins seem to be his biggest rivals for the Senior.I think the biggest unknown is Michael Dunlop,if they can get that Suzuki dialled in he could win.
Dunlop had some big issues with their tyres,anyone see Davey Todd's rear tyre?
I'll be back there for the Classic TT in August,it's much more relaxed & you get all sorts of old bikes turning up from all over Europe,stuff you very rarely see,I turn into a proper anorak for a few days.
Lee Johnston & Dave Hewson have good channels on You Tube,were you get to see the riders doing there own vlog's,the behind the scenes stuff.Hewson is the typical privateer,doing it for the love of it all.
Regarding the danger/lunacy of the event,I wouldn't go when my mate raced it as we all know what happens when it goes wrong,but I used to help him when he was racing in the BSB support classes.He has a garage business & I used to get my annual service & MOT on my car done before he went to the island,the deal being at least I got a free service & MOT out of him if he didn't come back.. We lost someone we knew well racing at the TT,but my mate still raced the following day.
His attitude to the risk was 'well you go climbing & plenty get killed doing that' I pointed out it's high altitude mountaineering where the fatalities happen not rock climbing.Regarding the drain on the NHS,I think moutain biking is more dangerous,the main difference being when things go badly wrong on mtb's you end up in a wheel chair,when it goes badly wrong at road racing you end up in a box.
Ironically he had no accidents on the Isle of Man,but was involved in a fatal at Cadwell Park.
Love the spectacle of it, like a superspeeded up Tdf time trial. But only on highlights where you know they haven't crashed, watching live would have me wincing to the point of not enjoying it.
When I read it I thought you meant time trial, to which I was going to say "I am doing my first TT at the weekend; doing it on my gravel bike and Bell Super helmet". But alas it is a different type of TT.
We dont here the same said for cyclists killed on roads and in traffic. No ‘They died doing something they loved’ doesn’t really cut it does it.
That's not the same thing - that's being killed by somebody else. If I died in a cross race or after a MTB crash I'd bet that people would say that about me.
The 'Live' coverage has a 20 second delay, so anyone fancying seeing 3 or 4 races tomorrow can still sign up safe in the knowledge that they won't see anything terrible.
renting out their kids
The Isle of Man eh?
The Isle of Man eh?
Definitely worth a visit at least once in your lifetime if you're into all things bikes. Spent a few years living over there in my mid to late teens / early 20's. The atmosphere was always excellent, and really brought a usually quiet island to life.
And yes, that Fast Show sketch is deadly accurate. 😀
Good race this morning and the sidecar was impressive too, unfortunately finished with a red flag. No news as yet.
And yes, that Fast Show sketch is deadly accurate.
YES.
But just because these people exist is it right and proper to give them an outlet? Take it to the next level – should the owner of a bridge known for suicides provide a jumping platform and booking form to facilitate their decision?
Pretty sure they are out there doing their best NOT to kill themselves though aren't they ?
Father and son on a sidecar killed today. Horrendous to hear.
And a spectator. (Unannounced) 😓
I love watching the sidecars but it's always a bit heart in mouth.
And a spectator. (Unannounced)
How do you know this if unannounced?
I've not heard anything about a spectator
Spectator death is conjecture.
The death of the Sidecar outfit today brings the total fatalities this meeting to five. I don't remember so many tragic deaths at one TT.
The fatality in the French Sidecar outfit who crashed earlier in the week wrongly reported that the passenger had died when in fact it was the driver.
How utterly horrendous for all involved.
If it was a horse race meeting it would be banned.
Do you mean as in if five horses died it would be banned, or jockeys?
If horses then the difference is that the entrants to the TT make a conscious choice to enter, horses don't have a choice.
Yes it's horrendous as are all fatalities but participants are free to enter or not as they wish & I for one don't want to see or live a life devoid of all risk, given how many people die or are severely ill through poor diet, lack of exercise, drinking, drug taking, poor housing etc I think a few motorcyclists risk their lives should be the least of our worries.
I am a motorcyclist, the IOM would scare me shitless but that's not to say I don't take risks either when motorcycling or cycling.
We dont here the same said for cyclists killed on roads and in traffic. No ‘They died doing something they loved’ doesn’t really cut it does it.
Totally different, innit?
Ride in the TT and you know that the only thing that's going to kill you is your own misjudgement. Ride a bike on the road and the thing that's going to kill you is someone else deliberately choosing to take an unnecessary risk at your expense.
“ The TT riders know that the twin impostors of triumph and disaster are separated by fractions of seconds, millimetres, and sometimes by sheer, dumb luck. They choose to race not because they seek death, but because they seek life at its most extreme, visceral. The homogenised, pasteurised, semi-skimmed version of life is not for Milky, McGuinness and the rest. They want the cream.
Every year, people die climbing Everest, yet pursuit of the peak is seen as noble. The TT riders have their own Everest. It is a 2,036 ft mountain called Snaefell. And, with any luck, when they're up there, the glimpse they get of that sixth kingdom will only be a fleeting one.”
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/jun/01/motorsports.motorracing
I will say that I think it may slowly fade away all the same, some of the racers and the spectators and fans are mostly of a certain age group.
I’m hoping this happens. Doesn’t normally bother me when I hear about TT fatalities but 5 this year and a father and son team. Really upset me that one.
Every year, people die climbing Everest
The death rate for climbers above base camp (0.6-2.2%) is about the same as that for the TT. Last time I looked, climbing Everest was not a spectator sport. So not really comparable. Watching the racing is indeed thrilling. Watching people die is overrated (in my personal experience).
Last time I looked, climbing Everest was not a spectator sport
This is key for me, certainly we watch the TT because of the danger and the spectacle as I get older I question this more
There is a great interview on YouTube for Bennett’s with one of the commercial director’s of the TT.
They’ve launched the TT+ live stream to open it up to a new audience because they had calculated that the current audience and participants were ageing and it would be unsustainable.
I love it. The Everest quote above sums it up, people should be able to choose to live on the edge.
The racing this year has been excellent.
Last time I looked, climbing Everest was not a spectator sport. So not really comparable.
It’s a sport that garners considerable sponsorship, publicity and is reliant on an individual taking considerable risks. People follow blogs, blogs and dots, documentaries are made, people get rich of it, etc as climbers climb so it’s not a massively abnormal comparator.
I'm fortunate to have competed in the Isle of Mann International ycling week a cuple of times. Bloody fantastic coming just after the TT races. 60 mph on a pedal bike coming off Snaefell was goo, into the hairpin with a pub/house on the bend and sheep everywhere.
Roads weren't fully closed, but starting on the ramp, then bombing down the hill in Douglass at 50mph, watching out for early morning old guys getting their papers, not realising there was a pedal bike speeding towards them - that was fun.
I've said it already, so arguably don't need to say it again, but for me there is a significant difference between being the participant in an activity with massive risk (it is quite literally your funeral and as someone who has done very risky stuff in the past it would be churlish to disapprove of others doing the same) and the organiser of an event which puts others in massive risk, especially if the organiser is doing it in a position of zero personal risk and there is a commercial benefit to a either the organiser (or a local community in the case of the TT) in encouraging/facilitating that risky behaviour. One (the rider) can be a morally reasonably place to stand, the other not so much. Just because you've got a group of people prepared to take that risk does not obligate you giving them an outlet/taking advantage of them to produce a profitable spectacle.
The Everest analogy is interesting. I have no issue with climbers or groups of climbers taking that challenge on. Where it gets dubious is when guiding companies shove half baked chubby businessmen up the mountain where the profit margin might blur the risk/reward thinking.
Just because you’ve got a group of people prepared to take that risk does not obligate you giving them an outlet/taking advantage of them to produce a profitable spectacle.
See ocean going yacht racing, American football, gp f1 etc, rugby, and with the level of systematic doping pro cycling
Ride in the TT and you know that the only thing that’s going to kill you is your own misjudgement
Or a mechanical. Or a person or animal on track.
See ocean going yacht racing, American football, gp f1 etc, rugby, and with the level of systematic doping pro cycling
Absolutely. And what society and individuals need to think about is where the line for acceptable levels of risk is. Nothing is risk free and life would be very dull if some risk was not acceptable. It's how much that's in question.
Someone elsewhere (and I can't verify the source) claimed that death rate per participant of this TT is higher than is typically the case for troups sent into modern war. In the UK at least that's a level of risk that requires an act of parliament, even if the troops being sent are 'mad for it'.
See ocean going yacht racing, American football, gp f1 etc, rugby
None of which have caused the deaths of five people per match or season.
Ocean racing - deaths per event - Usually none, and that can be a race spread over several months
American football - deaths per match - Zero
GP F1 - Deaths per race - Usually none.
Rugby - Are we kidding here ??
I never said they did kill five people an event, the point is people die from entertaining us;
Ocean racing - Fastnet and many others
American football, well publicised links to dementia and early deaths from repeated big hits
GP people have died proving entertainment for others
Rugby, again brain trauma through repeated head shots
All examples of sports entertainment causing serious injuries and deaths.
Fastnet isn’t a good analogy. As far as I recall, there was one race in 1979 which resulted in disaster, and that is about it as far as deaths go. After 1979 new regulations and safety features were brought in to stop it happening again. At the TT it happens year after year.
the point is people die from entertaining us;
They don't do it to entertain us.
They don’t do it to entertain us.
The post I was replying to said
“Just because you’ve got a group of people prepared to take that risk does not obligate you giving them an outlet/taking advantage of them to produce a profitable spectacle.”, in relation to the TT. My point is that plenty of other sporting events cause deaths without the hue and cry . Competitors may not compete to entertain us but that’s how the events end up.
Fastnet was one of the top of my head, google suggests ocean going racing is still reasonably dangerous. I suppose if it was easy no one would bother.
My point is that plenty of other sporting events cause deaths without the hue and cry .
In which case your choice of Rugby and American Football was unfortunate. Plenty of hue and cry. And Grand Prix too. Grand Prix of the 1970s/80s would be a better analogy - but then there was a hell of a lot of hue and cry and statics changed massively.
But again we are down to numeracy - the TT defenders are often consciously or unconsciously innumerate in their arguments. TT rider deaths don't stand out like a sore thumb just because of the violence of the deaths but by their relative frequency per participant and the seemingly metronomic regularity and inevitability of the sad news.
I’ve been to the TT once. I came away from it with the realisation that I was spectating at an event where I pretty much knew someone I was watching would die. That doesn’t sit comfortably with me, and it felt like something out of a Roman arena, so I have never been back.
The obvious comparator is other motorcycle racing events in the UK. A cursory glance at the stats shows that the relative risk for the IOM TT will be an order of magnitude higher (if not more). Since the same riders compete in both, there is some control. No other spectator sport comes remotely close for IFR. Climbing Everest is comparable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_deaths_in_British_motorcycle_racing_series
Need denominators for the number of entrants at each race meet, but more people die at the TT than in a season of other racing. Comparison with other road races is also necessary. But the relative risk will make smoking look tame (and that was a famous 40x for lung cancer found by Doll)