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Being scared of alien abduction is irrational.
You wasn't there man, you didn't see what I saw, it didn't even wear a glove.
My Dr has no problem giving me a 5mg tablet to take before the dentist but then I do have long history of anxiety problems.
Your GP is, apologies in advance, a mug!
Your dentist should be providing sedation for a treatment your dentist is doing!
I wouldn't prescribe sedatives for any hospital/dental/flying procedure with a barge-pen and barge-prescription-pad...!
DrP
I don't have a fear of flying, I have a fear of the fear of flying.
The thought of experiencing the absolute terror I feel on the ground but in the air and going to the other side of the world is definitely not something I wish on any of you happy fliers.
If the NHS won't prescribe benzodiazipines for flying, let them eat opiates.
#icanseeanissuewiththecurrentbnfguidance
I don’t have a fear of flying, I have a fear of the fear of flying
that pretty much the basis of all anxiety issues in a nutshell, not the event itself, but more the fear that you wouldn't be able to cope with it
i don't mind flying, but every now and again my braid will go into overdrive half way through a flight and i'll start thinking what if i get really anxious, i can't get off the plane, i'm trapped etc etc. a bit of breathing exercises, listen to something soothing, close eyes and have a beer does wonders
Unrelated to diazepam. But a few years ago I was on a nearly empty flight home. The flight attendants had little else to do but keep giving me free beer. I was happily singing to myself for most of the flight. I'm not sure I would have been much use in an emergency.
Try CBD oil
Well, I'm kind of with you OP.
If it's proven to work for you, it would seem pragmatic to continue prescribing in v small amounts now and then.
I assume you've been told no by a GP, so did they not suggest an alternative?
ZK - you should know by now that if you ask a mildly controversial question on here, you will eventually be unjustifiably called out and flamed (see Kramer). It's STW is it not?
Why not try Nytol. I know they are advertised as a sleep aid but it's basically an old school (sedating) antihistamine (diphenhydramine). In the past, similar drugs were prescribed to mitigate acute, situational anxiety. Ucerax was one of them.
Certainly less "controversial" than the Satan-borne benzo's!!
Hope you get sorted. Flying is shit but necessary.
If it’s proven to work for you, it would seem pragmatic to continue prescribing in v small amounts now and then.
That's part of the problem, previous experience isn't a reliable predictor of future response.
The second part is dependency, as OP says, it's the fear of flying without it is almost worse than the actual fear of flying. This is the problem with medicating for phobias rather than using other therapeutic approaches, because it potentiates the phobia.
Anxiety is absolutely awful no doubt there.
Taking the odd diazepam to get through an episode isn’t great. There are many therapies available for anxiety, yes including medication but the right kind. There’s a very good reason they are clamping down on opioid and benzodiazepines, they’re ridiculous addictive.
I always struggle with writing off a fear of flying as a ‘just’ a phobia.
...
I’m just not sure if having a fear of getting onto a vehicle that can drop hundreds of feet with little to no warning is entirely irrational.
A fear of getting onto a vehicle that can drop hundreds of feet with little to no warning when it's tens of thousands of feet in the air is wholly irrational. What's the rational explanation, you might collide with more air?
That's not to diminish it as a fear. It's compounded by the fact that most people might fly maybe twice a year so you've got Strange as a factor, we're just not conditioned to it. But those self same people will jump into a car without a second thought and that's astonishingly more dangerous than any other form of transport. In comparison, flight is the safest, you're more likely to die on a train.
Of course it's a phobia. It's a wholly understandable phobia, but it's a phobia.
you should know by now that if you ask a mildly controversial question on here, you will eventually be unjustifiably called out and flamed (see Kramer).
Don't talk wet.
Of course it’s a phobia. It’s a wholly understandable phobia, but it’s a phobia.
If you don't want to go bungee jumping because it's too scary is that a phobia? Most people would say no. Even though it's very safe (far safer than mountain biking) it's not something everyone wants to do. And those who want to do it want to do it because it is scary.
Flying is undoubtedly scary. Comparing it to a car journey is not even close. Cars move in two dimensions, you can see the road ahead, and you can see (and often know) the driver.
In a plane you are crammed into a tube with a bunch of strangers, with another bunch of strangers in charge, you can't see what's going to cause the bumps, and you may or may not have access to a window to be able to see what angle you are to the earth.
I would say that being scared of bungee jumping is not a phobia. It's a similar thing with flying.
It would be interesting to know how many have actually experienced severe turbulence. By that I mean if you weren't wearing your seat belt you would be going to the hospital.
I think suddenly experiencing seconds of freefall gives you a very different perspective on rational vs irrational fears.
Similar to the Nytol suggestion, have you tried Actifed or Avomine?
I was flying home from Singapore a few years back, the company had just pulled our Business Class travel, went into the pharmacy and asked for something to make me sleep, sold me some old school sleeping tablets over the counter. Can't remember what they were but when I googled them, most countries would of required a prescription.
Used them a few times when flying, very effective. Forgot about them in a pocket and they went through the washing machine. Probably a good thing!
I don't really want to fall asleep as Mrs Zip gets cramp on flights and I need to be able to help. All of which I can do when I'm enjoying the flight and not hiding in the toilet.
In our situation diazepam is the solution.
I viewed flying as quite exciting till the military flew me to Germany in an unpressurised transport plane through a thunderstorm. It was objectively more of a shake up than any theme park ride I've been on and the ear/headache lasted a day.
Since then I don't like flying. I know it's objectively safer than riding my bike but wil happily ride 1000km+ to avoid a flight. If I have to fly, by which I mean the fear of making Madame unhappy is greater than my fear of flying, I approach it stoically like a condemned man being sent to the gallows. No drugs, no alcohol.
Well, I eventually learnt to cope by flying back and forth most weekends to Cork or Kerry airports - the Atlantic wind means most landings are sideways and on one wheel. Still not fond of the sudden jump in clear air. But I recommend a Ryanair tea as a drug as the taste will have you praying for the end.
Flying is undoubtedly scary.
For some. I've never been scared on a plane, and yes encountered some pretty severe turbulence over the SCS (lockers opening, flight-crew knocked off their feet, all that jazz) But have piloted a plane and solo'd a glider, perhaps it makes a difference?
I would say that being scared of bungee jumping is not a phobia. It’s a similar thing with flying.
It's a fear of heights, is it not? There's a difference between not going bungee jumping because it simply doesn't appeal, and not going bungee jumping when you actually really want to but are too scared.
Flying is undoubtedly scary.
Flying is undoubtedly scary to some people. I find it mundane, sitting there in an undersized seat doing **** all for eight hours.
Comparing it to a car journey is not even close. Cars move in two dimensions, you can see the road ahead, and you can see (and often know) the driver.
In a plane you are crammed into a tube with a bunch of strangers, with another bunch of strangers in charge, you can’t see what’s going to cause the bumps, and you may or may not have access to a window to be able to see what angle you are to the earth.
Perhaps but... well, so what? "Crammed into a tube with a bunch of strangers, with another bunch of strangers in charge," you could say the same about trains or buses.
Planes mostly go in straight lines whereas cars go up and down hills, round bends, through traffic lights, round roundabouts... and you're a few feet away from a ****ton of other drivers doing the same thing whilst updating their Facebook status. By any rational measure it should be far more scary to be doing 70mph in the second lane of the M6 but it isn't because we've normalised it, we do it several times a week.
What you're describing there sounds like control issues. My partner is a terrible car passenger, she's far better sitting reading her Kindle than she is looking out of the window and screaming every three minutes because she's seen another car on the horizon.
“There’s a very good reason they are clamping down on opioid and benzodiazepines, they’re ridiculous addictive.”
Really? I took diazepam and codeine 3 and 4 times a day, for six months whilst waiting for back surgery, then stopped immediately afterwards. At no point after the pain had reduced did I think ooh, I could do with pill.
I mean the drugs were ok but beer was better.
I’m quite good at getting hooked on things normally.
I’m not doubting it’s addictive. I’m just surprised.
Safe does not automatically mean not scary. Otherwise rollercoasters wouldn't exist.
I think flying is objectively scary (I am not scared of flying but I'm saying if you were classifying things as scary or not scary flying would most likely end up on the scary end of the spectrum). You are travelling at almost the speed of sound at 30000 ft. And then you've got the random movements, noises, etc. And, as others have mentioned, the complete lack of control.
Most people simply become accostomed to it, no matter how exciting/scared they were the first time they flew.
I just think that flying is objectively scary but people have gotten used to it. In much the same way if people had to bungee jump for work or to go on holiday it would get very boring very quickly, but for some the fear would remain. And if something is objectively scary then I don't really think it can be classed as an irrational fear, no matter how safe the activity is.
Really? I took diazepam and codeine 3 and 4 times a day, for six months whilst waiting for back surgery, then stopped immediately afterwards. At no point after the pain had reduced did I think ooh, I could do with pill.
Yes really. Well done you.
Now try to find out how addiction works.
I just think that flying is objectively scary but people have gotten used to it. In much the same way if people had to bungee jump for work or to go on holiday it would get very boring very quickly, but for some the fear would remain. And if something is objectively scary then I don’t really think it can be classed as an irrational fear, no matter how safe the activity is.
I don't think anything is objectively scary. Scary is defined as causing fear, which is an emotion. Calling something objectively scary is like calling something objectively funny. Its different strokes for different folks. I can remember my first flight and I wasn't in the slightest bit scared, and I haven't been in any of the 100s of flights I've taken since. I also don't find roller coasters scary, I'm fine with a lack of control.
Used to love a blue 10 on a Sunday afternoon in the summer after a Saturday night at the sub club, a short wander to Queen’s Park from my mates flat and sink into the grass till recovery was complete then out again on sun night for optimo at the sub club.
Safe does not automatically mean not scary. Otherwise rollercoasters wouldn’t exist.
100% agreed, though I'd have gone with ghost trains or haunted houses as an example, or just scare attractions generally. I love roller coasters, but because they're thrilling rather than scary.
I think flying is objectively scary
This is where we disagree. Fear is inherently subjective. Otherwise Fred Dibnah wouldn't exist (or for that matter, pilots).
You are travelling at almost the speed of sound at 30000 ft. And then you’ve got the random movements, noises, etc. And, as others have mentioned, the complete lack of control.
You're travelling, relatively to the plane, stationary. In the air, surrounded by absolutely nothing that can harm you. When standing on the Earth we're rotating at a thousand miles an hour and the Earth is doing ~67 times that through space. The speed of sound is pocket change.
Movements and noises aren't random, they can all be explained. The lack of control is no different from standing on a train.
It's understandable, but it's not rational.
he was barred from BA
... which is ironic, given BA ain't gettin' on no plane.
(That felt like hard work)
I am anxious about flying to the point of panic attacks. I have just completed a 2 day 4 flight trip. I was difficult but i prepared myself well. Refused alcohol. Did my breathing exercises and i made it.
I also told the flight crew of my fears and they justkept a wee eye on me
There is no way i would have taken benzos. The side and after effects would not have helped changing flights and terminals etc while on my own
I am not say mtfu. I am saying mental preparation can help
all it takes is one idiot, or someone overly sensitive to such meds, to mess it up for everybody else?
come on, what kind of world are we living in/with?
GPs are saying they cant prescribe non-benzos because theyre addictive, ranitidine got taken away,castor oil?
Theyll ban peanuts next as someone was allergic
Why should we stand for that nanny state nonsense?
Isnt alcohol related stuff still the biggest cost to the nhs, days off work etc?
Mostly we cant even get an appointment these days
Theres warnings on everything, arent we allowed to think for ourselves?
It’s long been the case that drugs have been used for a purpose and then further research is done and shows that they may not be being used appropriately.
When I first started working it was standard to give dogs that were scared of fireworks a drug called ACP (Acepromazine). Seemed to work really well as they were quiet, didn’t pant, pace, vocalise or do any of the many things they would show how they were scared. However further research showed that they were fully aware of the scary fireworks and just not able to do anything about it so actually a much worse experience for them. Now no one would use it in such a situation. Doesn’t stop clients asking for it though “ it just worked so well”
In relation to flying, you are not allowed to give cats or dogs any sedatives prior to flight as it is then not possible to tell if they have become ill during the flight or are having an adverse reaction to the medication. Can see why air crew would feel the same about people
Theres warnings on everything, arent we allowed to think for ourselves?
Not when it comes to controlled drugs, no.
Theres warnings on everything, arent we allowed to think for ourselves?
Your logical fallacy is: slippery slope.
The problem with this line of for want of a better term "thinking" is that it assumes that almost half of the populace isn't of below average intelligence.
We don't need safety cut-outs on bandsaws, just don't stick your hand in it. If you do, then, well, worst case scenario is you'll only do it once more.
Isnt alcohol related stuff still the biggest cost to the nhs
No. It's getting old and all the baggage which comes with that such as dementia. Which I have to admit, credit where it's due, your approach may be a solution to.
Drac
Full Member
Theres warnings on everything, arent we allowed to think for ourselves?
Not when it comes to controlled drugs, no.
Bloody woke snowflakes 😜
I will have to respectively disagree eg if you have to travel for work and find it traumatising, then asking for professional help to be able to live your life is perfectly within the remit of the NHS.
An interesting point, and I don’t know where I stand on it personally. However, as an employer who wanted to send a nervous flyer overseas we put them on a course at our expense - had it been suggested drugs were the solution I am sure we would have covered that had it not already been in the scope of the private medical insurance we pay. I wouldn’t have assumed it was NHS remit, and I certainly wouldn’t for your own pleasure either, BUT as an employer we do pay a not insignificant amount of National Insurance each year and so I wonder if some might feel it should include treatment to benefit the employer?
Interesting to see such a quick dismissal of using NHS resources to get help with this (whether pharmaceutical or not), and the suggestion the solution is a private prescription. Presumably that doctor has no access to your medical records so relies entirely on your version of your history which seems somewhat unwise for someone walking in wanting controlled drugs!
I don’t really know why someone would fly on holiday somewhere if they hate flying so much it needs meds - it would be like this pasty white Scotsman going somewhere stupidly hot; not at all relaxing; but there could be a long term argument that the NHS benefits by the patient getting a decent holiday, not becoming a stress head about travelling and doing things that make them a happier person. A waste of an appointment or an investment in reducing future depression costs?
God, back in my mis-spent youth when we coundn't get weed, we would buy tamazipam or 'jelly eggs' as they were known locally... because they were really cheap and a couple of those plus a bottle of cheap cider would mess you up propper style!
I never really got into that side of things as I've seen how messed up people can get from them... god knows where the dealers were getting them from as they were all legit gel capsules as far as I could tell. I can only assume it was GP's over prescribing so people with a 'script could sell them on, on the black market.
This is where we disagree. Fear is inherently subjective. Otherwise Fred Dibnah wouldn’t exist (or for that matter, pilots).
Not really. There are two inate fears that humans have. Fear of falling and fear of loud noises. We are born with those fears although with conditioning they can be controlled(although never eliminated).
There is also the theory that all fears can be boiled down to 5 foundation fears:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-5-fears-we-all-share
When it comes to flying then I would say that the loss of autonomy is a large part of the basis. I can think of few situations we voluntarily put ourselves in that can compare to the complete absense of autonomny that comes with being sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
With most phobias there is a single fear that is fairly easily identifiable. With flying there are so many factors piled on top of each other it's difficult to tell what the actual issue is. Not to mention the difficulty in gradual exposure that is the way most fears can be overcome.
Whatever definition you use, flying is a fundamentally scary experience, both from the perspective of our innate fears and the fear of loss of autonomy.
Rollercoasters and Bungee jumping are also scary but as you say they they are thrilling. Thrilling just means that you have decided to willingly experience a small and controlled amount of fear of falling. You have also decided to give up a small amount of autonomy (but only for a very short period of time). Thrilling is just a dose of scary that you ultimately have control over.
flying is a fundamentally scary experience, both from the perspective of our innate fears and the fear of loss of autonomy.
But there are people on board who've not lost their autonomy; the pilots and a lesser extent the cabin crew. Presumably they're either doing a good job to disguise their "innate fears", or they....just don't find it scary (because otherwise, it would be a stupid career move). Which sort of disproves your theory, no? I genuinely don't find airplanes scary, you could shoot me off the end of the USS Ronald Regan in an F18E Super Hornet and while my heart rate would probs be a million, I wouldn't be scared. I find very large wild animals scary, I find the very dark a bit creepy sometimes, and there's no way I'm getting in water when I can't see the bottom, but planes...dull/exciting/interesting/routine? Yep all those things , Scary? Nope.
sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
That is a very weird way to think about a thing that's doing all it can to keep you alive at 30,000ft, and in fact so easily and safely does it accomplish this, you can do it in shirt sleeves while reading a book, or watch a film while sipping a martini...
Interesting read, that. Food for thought.
I can think of few situations we voluntarily put ourselves in that can compare to the complete absense of autonomny that comes with being sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
How about the London Underground? Is that not just a rolling death tube at -300ft?
Nobody is saying you can't be conditioned to ignore your fear. Look at Alex Honnold free soloing El Cap. But even then he found himself overcome by his fear at one point during that climb and just stood on a ledge for half an hour thinking 'WTF am I doing?' You can condition yourself to overcome innate fear but it doesn't disappear.
And also, being in the tube negates the idea that you are high up. For some people. For others it doesn't. They are painfully aware that they are very very high up.
My objection is to people who dismiss fear of flying as 'just a phobia'. A phobia normally has a single identifiable cause that can often be overcome through gradual exposure.
Like I said, I never had any understanding of what fear of flying was until I experienced severe turbulence. Most people who think they've experienced severe turbulence haven't. From your description you mentioned people got knocked over. If it had been severe turbulence anyone not strapped in would be taking a trip to hospital because they would most likely have been knocked unconscious when their head hit the ceiling.
You can also tell because the entire plane is screaming.
After that I was extremely sensitive to every vibration and noise any aircraft I was on made. Took a good couple of years to get over it. It gave me an appreciation of just how real the fear is and how complex it is. It's not a single thing. It's a whole bunch of fears all rolled into one.
And it's definitely not 'just a phobia'.
How about the London Underground? Is that not just a rolling death tube at -300ft?
Yeah, but you are probably on your commute and hoping for death. Surely, that must take the edge off?
And you live in London so you're desensitised to everything.
Poly
If work want to drug you with a harmful drug to do your work there are a lot more issues than should it be an NHS or private prescription