[Closed] Nightclub doorman confiscating driving licence. Is this legal ?

I don't reckon the doorman had any right to keep the licence unless, as you say he's going to pass it to the police immediately. Call me a cynic but it wouldn't surprise me if the doorman has a sideline in flogging hooky IDs to other teens.

aaah.. those reknowned paragons of virtue.. those sage bastions of decency.. those moral guardians..

I'm no expert but what you say sounds about right to me, I assume this all happened on the street before the little tyke even entered the building, no? Also can the doorman, legally, do a body search?

I would guess anyone can do a body search if it's a condition of entry to a private venue.
Yes, I wondered what really happened to the older brother's licence.
The younger brother is hardly likely to go to the police himself.

dodgy as IMO, I'd involve the Police, they won't give a *** about the kid and the bouncer is relying on not getting dobbed in.

Happens all the time. All bouncers do it.

What do they do with the licences then ?

Hand them over to the police probably?

I don't see how it's legal for them to keep it. They can ask for whatever they want in order to gain access to the club but can't force him if he chooses not to enter.

I didn't think to ask for more details at the time, but if it was handed to the police, then surely they would return it to its rightful owner.
I remember the boy saying he had to pay the £20 replacement fee, which suggests the doorman kept, destroyed, or passed it on elsewhere.

Surely its theft as the doorman has no legal powers.

I'd report it as stolen, if only because the DVLA may not be too happy to be told it had been given to a bouncer who did something unspecified with it 😛

hhhmmmmm, lets see. 17 y/o tries to get into an 18+ club. Tries to fake himself in as his older brother. Gets caught. Gets license taken so that he cant try again.

Sounds let yet another STW case of SIUP

As far as I know it will all get handed to the police.. who will then bin it to save on time.. resources and paperwork..

Or even more likely.. they will have asked the clubs owners to bin it themselves for the same reason..

There appears to be no clear answer at present. By fraudulently using someone else's ID to obtain alcohol, both the person using the ID and the person giving them the ID are breaking the law and thus leaving them liable to prosecution. The door/bar staff (at least as advised by our county licensing department,) should confiscate the ID and report it to the police who will then collect the ID and follow the matter up with the ID's owner. The police however have made it clear that they have, quite rightly, much more pressing matters on a weekend evening to be dealing with than the paperwork/effort involved in this.

At present the stance, purely for the benefit of oursleves and other licensees in the area, is to confiscate the ID and get a message relayed to the owner that they can collect their ID after a couple of days. The consequences of being caught serving anyone underage do not make the risks worthwhile, so in doing this we are protecting each other - if we were just to turn them away, they will then use the same ID to get served in another venue illegally.

No, the bounced has no legal powers to do this and has probably sold it on already. His brother should phone the club and ask for it back.

probably sold it on already

to who?
for what?
never mind the inevitable cctv footage showing him taking it.. the risk to his job.. for what..?

£10.. £20 maximum..?

As Ste_t said. When I sent 2 years working on a city centre beat regularly on vomit patrol we ALWAYS got bouncers handing over DL and other forms of fake ID, to be fair that was one thing they were good at (even if their were rubbish/bad at other things)!! They can seize it. Youth has committed an offence under the identification cards act which in theory could have given him 2 years inside straight away do not pass go. I have seen numerous people actually get 2 years as well.

Oh and they can search (and refuse entry) anyone they want as the club is private property so they can turn you away because they don't like the look of you!

Just because you work on a door doesn't make you an evil, fake ID selling gangstar.
Perhaps, and it's a long shot, but perhaps that's the policy and is perfectly legal and correct?

As the licence owner isn't (proved) guilty of anything, he should ring the club and ask for his licence back. If they refuse, they've then stolen his licence and he should act accordingly. No?

The only misdemeanour here is the lad trying to get into the club.

I'd report it to the police , he had no legal right to take the licence he's just a door man

I'd report it to the police , he had no legal right to take the licence he's just a door man

As far as the door man is concerned it's a fake ID so surely it's his duty to remove it?

No, it's not his duty to remove it at all. It's his duty to stop the underage getting into the club, he has no legal or moral rights to remove the ID, he should hand it back and say "nice try, see ya". I've known plenty of bouncers give people a good kicking, but I've never known any take peoples property. I dare say they've no right to do a body search either unless the kid agreed. I'll ask a friend of mine who manages a club for clarification.

Hmmmm! I'm not really sure on this one, but I do think it's one of those grey areas that is going to polarise opinion and lead to an interesting dabate which may or may not result in insults being thrown and tags being written.
HTH.

Will the whining, bleeding-heart kittens (especially those who ignored M_C's post) please follow this link, download the document and write to the Daily Mail with their subsequent rage?.....

[url= http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol/false-id/false-identity-guidance ]http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol/false-id/false-identity-guidance[/url]

It is a very clear read, details the offences that may be being committed and a very good thing indeed. No room for doubt there.

As usual, the role of parenting in this issue is being ignored.

What we used to do,and it is a few years ago now...Is confiscate any of the crap universal proof of age cards that you buy out of FHM etc and bin them(costs the wee scrotes 10-20 to replace them).Forged driving licenses,military cards, we would keep and pass on to the local bobby,as there are some REALLY good fakes.I asked a mate last night,still the same.
Poor wee innocent; he was trying to get into a club which could lose its licence,with the attendant job losses/costs,with somebody elses id? I wouldn't be worried about the missing (I assume photocard) license just now.Nor would I try to get into the club for a couple of years as we all remember faces,print out pics of people like above kid.
I have also never heard about doormen selling ID,as is suggested by a couple of people above,worst case is doorman is busy with the 2000 people he gets through the door on a Fri/Sat and doesn't have the time to spend on MTQG's mates son to ensure he had an enjoyable customer experience,and so binned it....Oh and for all the folk giving air to their opinion to doormen.Have you seen what they keep out of clubs?

Sorry Graham; I do have an opinion 🙂

The benefit of getting older is you don't have to go to clubs any more.

Gotta love the ones slating the young lad.

I bet you were a right bunch of boring farts in your teens - or are you just being sanctamonious?

Surely that wouldn't happen on STW, would it?

Youth has committed an offence under the identification cards act........could have given him 2 years inside

Laws like that are a complete waste of time as long as bouncers are a soft touch and don't report known incidences for prosecution.

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution.

Otherwise if I was the nightclub owner, I would sack the doorman for not doing his job properly.

On a more positive note MidlandGraham, obviously because of his age, your mate's son won't be facing an adult prison if held at Her Majesty's pleasure. Try to reassure him.

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution

that's a joke right..?

Nope, it's ernie.

Well there you go , every day's a school day. I'd never even heard of that Act until this thread.

My lad did something similar to this. He managed to modify the year on his licence to 90 instead of the real 91. Local bouncer looked at the licence and compared the year to the bit in the driver number which also has the year of birth, and of course they didn't match. My son's obviously a good forger and a fool at the same time.

First I knew of it was a copper at the door handing me his licence back. Bouncer had handed it in after the shift.

They left it to me to, ahem, "return his licence to him".

He won't do that again.

Once saw a lad have his brother's licence ripped into pieces on the steps of Rock City, rather worrying as we were relying on dodgy NUS cards at the time..

Couger, hambl90, cofeeking, onzadog, atlaz, thanks for your uniformed pointless posts, but your all wrong. (Especially those who posted after the copper)

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution

[b]"that's a joke right..?"[/b]

A joke ......why would it be a joke ? The OP appears to be particularly concerned that the law be strictly applied, after all, he asks [i]"Is this legal ?".[/i]

I am simply agreeing with the OP that in this case the doorman should follow what is lawfully required from him, and pass on all relevant information, including the illegally used ID, to the police for prosecution. The plenty for which, will presumably be a lot more than the 20 quid for a replacement license that his mate's son feels hard done by.

Unless of course I've misunderstood the OP and he feels that only the doorman should act in a legal manner, whilst he mate's son can freely go about flouting the law as he so wishes .......but surely not, no one can be that hypocritical - can they ?

It's quite common to confiscate drugs (then deny entry, obviously!), and then pass the drugs to their 'inside people' at the club for selling on.

It's part of the business of being a doorman, especially from my experiences living in London...

Never heard of ID's being confiscated with the intention of being sold on, although it wouldn't surprise me - they are more connected to the 'underground' than you think...

By christ Ernie you're being a tool today.

No shags last night?

yea a wise man takes his drugs before he goes in, or gets his girlfriend to store them some wear!

jenbe - Member
yea a wise man takes his drugs before he goes in, or gets his girlfriend to store them some wear!

Or becomes mates with someone on the 'inside' 😉

It's part of the business of being a doorman

You were a doorman where and when?

It isn't part of the business of being a doorman. Some people deal drugs, but not all people deal drugs. Some doormen do illegal things, but not all, not even most - especially since licensing was introduced.

TooTall - Member
You were a doorman where and when?

Whilst living in London, just by chance, I became good friends with someone who was well and truly embedded in the underworld of London night clubs (DnB scene) - been involved since the Acid House days of the 80s... I became a familiar face by association to the Bouncers/Door Staff, DJs and Promoters and had quite a unique insight into their world.

It was certainly an eye opener.

At any club (or event) you would have specific 'mules' who would literally walk in with 1000s of pills/wraps in a rucksack - the bouncers intentionally turning a blind eye. Anybody else was searched, and if drugs found, just put back into the club. This is well known practice, as the 'permitted' dealers inside the clubs are working for the nightclub themselves - extra revenue which the tax man doesn't know about. If anyone's been to a club, and seen dealers doing their business in a very open way - don't you ever wonder how the bouncers could be so blind to it??

What you probably don't know is, as an incentive, the more drugs the bouncers find on the door... the higher their cash bonus at the end of the night. Cash, of course, being off-record.

It may not be in their official job description, but it does happen. Maybe not with Big John on the door at a small nightclub in Swindon - but it certainly does in the larger clubs (in London anyway).

Ernie, you are being silly. Let's face it I stated that the lad was committing an offence under the identity cards act however police wouldn't prosecute don't you think we have better things to deal with. That Act came in to deal with people using false ID to withdraw money from bank accounts etc so more aerious stuff.

In all my time of working with door staff the only thing they were was heavy handed regularly got handed drugs, ID etc. People are nicely stereotyping again.

Ernie, you are being silly.

🙁 I wasn't the only one.

I think OP started it off by suggesting that the doorman should reimburse the 20 quid the kid lost for trying to get into premises illegally.

And I'll remind you that the suggestion the doorman should go to the police [u]came from the OP[/u], quote :

[i]"If the doorman has evidence of a crime, or attempted crime, such as under age drinking, obtaining goods or services by deception, identity theft or theft of a driving licence, and has the suspects name and driving licence number, shouldn't he immediately contact the police and hand over the confiscated licence ?"[/i]

I thought the OP's point was to hand over licence maybe I misread it. Anyway point is boucers can confiscate it.

What do they do with the licences then ?

several places i frequent have the confiscated IDs on the wall behind the door/ bar. funny how shockingly rubbish (homemade) some of them are!

xiphon - how long ago was that?

I have worked doors in several cities and saw (years ago) a hint of what you mentioned. They were always at the borderline legal end of things and got less and less as licensing of staff became more common.

2006-2010.

Also, many of the companies which provided door staff... were owned by the nightclubs' parent company (or promoters parent company... who would be affiliated with the nightclubs business). They don't just allow any old mug to join them. New 'recruits' would be positioned in much smaller clubs (bars mostly), to test if they could be trusted (asked to let in particular people without a search, etc). If they could, they then got moved up the food chain to a larger club.

Like it or not, the drugs industry has a massive effect on the nightclubs business (ticket sales, drink sales, etc) - so they do as best they can to keep control of it (can't really blame them, TBH). A club night with absolute _zero_ tolerance of drugs would soon close down, as word would quickly spread.

Anyway were getting off tangent now.... back to the OP's thread...

Good story xiphon, and that is all it is. ( I worked in Tunnel and Tiger/Tiger Glasgow, Mardi Gras/Fat Sams Dundee, both on front door) Never saw this,popular story repeated many times.
Just one wee point; If everybody knew that a club was under the control of certain (well you would call them geezers) then why would randoms try and bring drugs in?

Ianpinder, thank you for thanking me for me ill informed opinion. However, I said the bouncer has no legal powers to seize the ID. Certainly in the link posted to the guidance on such matters, a few points.
1, guidance is just that, guidance.
2, it says the governments view is that doing so it not theft.
3, it makes reference to common law.

Now, it could be that my information is out of date as it's been a while since I had reason to give a damn but it looks like they do not have the legal powers as I said. Being acceptable in common law is a different matter.

Bouncers and the companies that run them are not a side of life I wish to have much to do with. I've only really known one. He worked for the biggest company in the area which was run by a well known crime family in the area. He's also now serving life for blowing someone away with a shotgun. While not a scientifically robust sample of bouncers, it's enough for me to not think of them as my favourite section of society.

As for where I got my original information from, it was a woman I used to date who ran a club and I had no reason to distrust what she said. People assume that those is positions of authority have more powers than they often do. Take PCSOs for example.

By the way, I don't condone the lads actions, I'm just not fond of bouncers.

Couger, hambl90, cofeeking, onzadog, atlaz, thanks for your uniformed pointless posts, but your all wrong. (Especially those who posted after the copper)

This is a discussion forum. If you want facts, you go to a CAB, contact a solicitor, or at the very least hit Google to find the "correct" answer from an authoritative source. A discussion forum, as the name might suggest, is where one might find discussion. This may contain opinion, guesswork, and speculation.

But nonetheless, thank you for your constructive and informative post, I'm sure that without you pointing out so clearly and succinctly "hah, I'm right and you're wrong, ner," the forum and possibly the very fabric of time and space itself might have come unravelled. Well done, have a cookie.

WARNING, THE FOLLOWING POST IS OPINION AND SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS FACT. STONE TABLETS WERE NOT CHISELLED IN THE MAKING OF THIS POSTING. I AM NOT A LAWYER.

I think OP started it off by suggesting that the doorman should reimburse the 20 quid the kid lost for trying to get into premises illegally.

Bear in mind, the owner of the licence hasn't committed a crime, he's the victim of one (he's had his licence "stolen"). Granted he's probably in on the act, but there's no proof of this.

So as far as the licence owner is concerned, he's lost / mislaid his licence, and had a tip-off as to where it might be before he's had chance to report it to the DVLA.

Owner of licence either needs to ring police to see if they have it or the club and inform them that his brother used it (hopefully without his permission!!). Easy. What is the big debate about!

I worked the door many moons ago, mainly around north london in the ninties. Freind and i had our own business providing security. I remember having safe full of dope from the searches we did (a lot of the jobs we did were at uni bars.....). Tried on numerous occasions hand it in to the police, but they weren't interested. In the end we got fed up with the smell in the office and binned it. Pretty much the same for fake id's, we just burnt/shredded them.

Yeah, I'd have just burnt the dope as well, in a "series of small fires".

I can't see that any doorman has the right to confiscate anything, surely there is an element of theft if he "confiscates" anything that is not returned to the owner.

Problem here is that the yoof didn't own the licence in question.

Doormen have the right to confiscate anything deemed illegal during a search, guess what, we were even taught by the police how to correctly search people, including asking the correct questions regarding sharps and the like. We even got some very rudimentary legal training regarding searching people, I have confiscated, knives, illegal ID, booze, drugs and they all get handed into the Police whenever they passed whilst patrolling the pubs and clubs.

Would anyone on here honestly confiscate any of the above items off an unknown and either take them or sell them on?

I did the doors in Manchester, Liverpool, Wigan, Macclesfield and other areas for just over 10 years, I was the first registered doorman in Wigan, I was always registered wherever I worked and I did the doors for one reason only........

It paid the bills..........

Oh, I got loads of shags as well and made a fortune selling fake id, drugs, filipino brides etc etc 🙄

Missingfrontallobal have you not read the thread? Must have intent for theft.....it certainly isn't theft FFS!! Tangoman love your last sentence 😉 I thought you were all drug dealing Scum who beat people up for the sake of it!

Tango man, was you working the doors before the licensing came in?

It was when the MP for Wigan (maccarthy???) got pissed up in the Rugby club (st pats I think, its a long time ago and I have slept and alcohol has passed my lips since)and was ejected by the doormen that he got all all upperty and introduced the law to parliament.

The reality is that bouncers/ doormen/ security personel are just members of the public same as you or me, they have no more authority than anybody else outside the realms of the venue they are working at, that applies whether they are registered or not. On the street they are just another bloke.

I'm finding this thread fascinating - the automatic assumption by some that the doorman must have acted illegally. The fact that he actually stopped an offence being committed is of course neatly ignored.

Even cynic-al who claims to be a solicitor, describes the doorman's action as [i]"dodgy"[/i] and advises : [i]"I'd involve the Police"[/i]

oh and does anyone remember the hatchet job Mcantyre did on doormen, he went undercover as a doorman hassled his workmates for weeks for some drugs, one eventually capitulated and got some for him, when he handed the stuff over you could clearly hear him say that its a one time deal only. Them Mcantyre labels them all as criminal scum.

Mcantyre really is an awful investigative journalist its basically the worst kind of sensationalist tabloid reporting, devoid of any truth, for the television.

It was when the MP for Wigan (maccarthy???) got pissed up in the Rugby club (st pats I think, its a long time ago and I have slept and alcohol has passed my lips since)and was ejected by the doormen that he got all all upperty and introduced the law to parliament

Ian McCartney MP was the small tool that introduced the law, one of his better quotes was the one where he stated "6 large men followed him home in a small family car" (still trying to work out how you get 6 not so large men into a ford escort :lol:)One of my memories of him was him getting hassle in a curry house, I was there as well, I offered to help calm the situation, he agreed, so I chucked him out and his party and got him a taxi. The situation improved no end after that.

To be truthful about licensing, it was needed, the doormen at the time were just huge chaps that could fight, but, the clients didn't hold back either, so the huge chaps were needed, especially in a rugby town like Wigan.

I worked before licensing and after, it didn't root out any of the idiot doormen, just made us accountable and gave us all visible names and made us easier targets.

Eventually the licensing scheme went nationwide but you still had known gangster types running doors in Manchester and Liverpool, and they were licensed, but the course did give us a better idea legally and we got a little more respect from the police in some towns(not Wigan)

It was a hard job but it paid the bills for over 10 years.. plus the bride selling and endless shagging was great, that and we got to beat up small drunk people 😆

Doorman salt of the earth all of them

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10175666

Mr Justice Kenneth Parker described the attack as "brutal and vicious" and said Stokes had used wholly disproportionate force.

The judge said Stokes' intention had been to carry out a punishment beating

If the link doesn't work just google shrewsbury doorman

this is quite a prejudiced thread innit..?

Maybe a lot of people have experiences of doorman that have led them to form negetive opinons of doorman.

oh and does anyone remember the hatchet job Mcantyre did on doormen

I remember the one he did on theft. Had a laptop and a mobile, tried a honeypot with a mobile and a kid had away with it - the GPS tracking promptly failed.

He then spent the rest of the programme talking to the kid's "brother," supposedly negotiating the return of the phone. The lad's asking questions like "you're a big lad aren't you, bet you're a bit tasty, done some boxing..." MacIntyre goes "nah, not me,"

After about ten years of this the lad finally gets bored, pulls a knife about the size of my little finger and says "give us your laptop then." Hardman MacIntyre about pissed his pants and went to pieces so fast the camera crew had to be treated for shrapnel wounds. Funniest thing I'd seen in months, asshat.

Maybe a lot of people have experiences of doorman that have led them to form negetive opinons of doorman.

Which is in contrast with nightclub clientele who are invariably law-abiding citizens who don't do fraud, drugs, offensive weapons, violence, public urination, noise nuisance, vandalism, or any way give the old bill a hard time ?

Well Ernie if you can't deal with job don't do it. If your answer to a bloke giving you some lip is getting your mates to hold him while you beat him to death then maybe you shouldn't be a licensed doorman.

the clientele comes with the territory, if you don't like sick people don't be a nurse.

Ah. There is a roaring trader in Zimbabwe for such licences. All the buyer has to do is look 'similar' to the picture on the ID then present it to the officer if pulled over in downtown Harrare 😉

the punters are not there generally to provide you with comfort and security etc unlike the bouncers. It seems reasonable to expect higher standards and behaviour from the paid staff than the punters.
Schools are full of immature, ill educated and unrully people. Should we excuse a teacher when they act like that?

not there generally to provide you with comfort and security etc unlike the bouncers

Far from providing you with comfort and security, it would appear according to some at least, that all bouncers are criminals (and apparently you're lucky if they don't [i]'get their mates to hold you whilst they beat you to death'[/i]) even the ones who are just doing their job and stopping under-age drinking.

Ernie, read the link, if you think i'm making it up.

all mountain bike riders are drug smugglers... fact.. here's the
[url= http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2009/06/18/giove_pot/ ]proof[/url]

prejudice...

[url= http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1106474__doormen_to_strike_over_killing ]Doorman Killed[/url]
[url= http://cdnedge.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/46449.stm ]Another one...[/url]

Like Homer Simpson states, you can use statistics to prove anything

Speshpaul - Member

Maybe a lot of people have experiences of doorman that have led them to form negetive opinons of doorman.

Maybe a lot of people on here have been drunk obnoxious trouble makers and ejected from pubs and clubs, for being drunk obnoxious trouble makers, but because of the alcohol in their systems actually believed that they were being witty and urbane by grabbing women's arses and throwing glasses.

Ernie, read the link, if you think i'm making it up.

I don't think you're making anything up (apart from perhaps suggesting that all bouncers are murderers) Just down the road apiece from me there's a nightclub where a few years back, one of the bouncers shot and killed a punter in an "execution type" shooting (back of the head from above) He was convicted.
Stuff like that happens.

I'm not sure what the connection with the guy who used a fraudulent ID, which this thread is about, is though.