[Closed] Nice one Dave! Whose going to murderise somebody then?

"Force against burglars" has been 'allowed' for a while now - DC has just officialised it.

"Force against burglars" has been 'allowed' for a while now - DC has just officialised it.

No, it's been in the law and todays announcement changes nothing, Call me Dave has just jumped on a bandwagon in an attempt to gain some popularity from something in the news that isn't the IMF's condemnation of Gideon's budget. It's as much a new announcement as the transport secretary coming out and saying people will have to stop at red lights and wear seatbelts.

Despite what some think, there have been two cases recently, one with a shotgun and one with a machete where the homeowners have 'defended themselves'.

Attack an intruder = reasnoble force
Booby trap your home and shoot them as they run away = unreasnoble
Attack them in the street with enough force to break a cricket bat over their skull = unreasnoble
Running down the street with a medieval re-inactment axe = unreasnoble

"wot nails for krikitbat?"

For about the fourth time in this forum...

The right to self-defence on your own property is what got that scumbag off who in 1985 repeatedly knifed the police surveillance officer John Fordham to death in cold blood.

Running down the street with a medieval re-inactment axe = unreasnoble

are you taking notes MuddyDwarf? 🙂

unrea[b]snob[/b]le

Typo? 🙂

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/still-not-okay-to-attack-banks-who-steal-your-house-2012100944162 ]Still not okay to attack banks who steal your house[/url]

The Newton Mearns Red Sox doesnt quite have the same ring to it as The Easterhouse Red Sox.

Despite what some think, there have been two cases recently, one with a shotgun and one with a machete where the homeowners have 'defended themselves'.

Not in relation to this specific case - but how does keeping a shotgun to hand, loaded and ready to fire, square with the requirements to keep a legally held weapon under lock and key, in a steel cabinet, rawlbolted to the wall. And for anyone in the household who doesn't hold a licence to not be allowed to even know where those keys are let alone have access to them. So not on the night stand or in your sock draw. ❓

So does that mean should we choose to rob you binners you will politely oblige and allow us to ransack your house?

There would be no 'owning with bombers'?

what I don't get it's always homeowners. Is it so that burglars and such a nudged towards only robbing tenants and other such low lifes ? 😕

So instead of "It's coming right for us!" we now shout- "Get off my property"?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

"Force against burglars" has been 'allowed' for a while now - DC has just officialised it."

No, it's been in the law and todays announcement changes nothing, Call me Dave has just jumped on a bandwagon

I think you'll find it was the Secretary of State for Justice that changed the rules on burglar bashing today rather than David Cameron. And whilst the use of reasonable force has been the law to defend yourself, contrary to what Thisisnotaspoon says, the rules will be revised allow you to use a level of force that would otherwise be viewed as Grossly Disproportionate.

Basically if you crack nice Mr Burglar round the skull with a bat and kill him you now wont be charged, previously you would have been. If you stave poor, under privileged, junkie Burglar twunt's skull in then stab him while he's on the floor unconscious you will be charged.

I'll leak you the official guidance if you like 🙂

❓

No, it's been in the law

It's been in the law but not 'allowed' = Eh?? ❓

So does that mean should we choose to rob you binners you will politely oblige and allow us to ransack your house?

Having disturbed burglars in my house I can vouch for being polite and obliging. Despite being outnumbered 3:1 you can just stand there and watch 3 people bounce off the walls with obsolete terror, and trying to escape by opening doors and running into cupboards. If one of them could have gotten the window open he'd have jumped two stories onto spiked railings to get out. Completely blinded by fear. I just stood there with my arms folded and said nothing.

Basically if you crack nice Mr Burglar round the skull with a bat and kill him you now wont be charged, previously you would have been. If you stave poor, under privileged, junkie Burglar twunt's skull in then stab him while he's on the floor unconscious you will be charged.

Either way victims of burglary have been doing it and getting away with it already - this is just rubber-stamping it imo.

And DC would have had the final say on the matter btw.

The right to self-defence on your own property is what got that scumbag off who in 1985 repeatedly knifed the police surveillance officer John Fordham to death in cold blood.

No that's political correctness gone mad - A whole new issue altogther!

patriotpro - Member

Either way victims of burglary have been doing it and getting away with it already - this is just rubber-stamping it imo.

And DC would have had the final say on the matter btw.

They weren't getting anyway with anything they were using "the force they deemed reasonable" at the time which is still perfectly legal in all other instances. This just means the level that plod and the law will deem reasonable when they assess it will be much greater, i.e. lethal.

You know DC rubber stamped it as you work in the Cabinet Office patriotpro? If so leak the papers on STW..... but make sure Franics Maude doesn't catch you, he gets very cross 👿

No that's political correctness gone mad

care to expand?

But only in England and Wales according to the radio news, so not sure whether I (in Scotland) can already attack anyone on my property?

Or what the NI rules are.

Also here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19879314

binners - Member
Seems like an ideal opportunity really.

Woohooooooooo!!! Lets all start killing people

All you need to do with someone who you don't like much - maybe a neighbour you're involved in a planning dispute with - is bludgeon them to death with, say, a cricket bat with some nails through it, then dump the body in your kitchen, smash a window and say they were burglerising you. Sorted!

Binners, you will have to help us out here. Can't really see where anyone is saying this from your link. Some vague comments from Grayling and even vaguer ones from CMD regarding raising the bar/hurdle rate regarding "proportionate force." Where is the bit about murderising (sic) people or license to bludgeon a neighbour to death?

If you bury the bodies properly in the first place there's nothing to worry about.

As the saying goes MrNutt A real friend will help you dispose of a body!

But now you don't have to bother if they were burgling you at the time you killed them 8)

A real friend will help you dispose of a body!

Thats why i don't trust joggers. Its always a jogger that discovers the body. Why is that?

I heard Chris Grayling being interviewed this morning on the today programme.
Sounded like a complete idiot.
Going out for a jog now, I'll report back later.

If that is my land you are jogging on you wont be reporting back 😈

[img] [/img]

toby1 - Member

So does that mean should we choose to rob you binners you will politely oblige and allow us to ransack your house?

That's right- there are only ever 2 options, either execute the burglar, or let them rob you.

Good news, finally some common sense and the law at last biased in favour of the person being burgled and wishing to defend their property.

He'll get my vote again, an Englishman's home is his castle and all that.

During the riots, the cops came to my shop with a rules of engagement pamphlet.
It said we didn't need to be attacked before defending ourselves, merely to feel threatened.
We could use whatever was to hand in defending ourselves. It's amazing an arsenal you can come up with when you need one.
Whether I would have done anything if it kicked off I don't know, but a bit of me certainly geared up a bit and was looking forward to it.

are you taking notes MuddyDwarf

Noted.

Next time i'll use a sword, much more civilised 😉

but a bit of me certainly geared up a bit and was looking forward to it.

🙁

Don't think anyone should be "looking forward" to possible violence. Not a good thing. That said, if someone was daft enough to break in chez moi, am sure I'd arrange things in my favour quicksmart. I just wouldn't approach it with any relish or joy.

But only in England and Wales according to the radio news, so not sure whether I (in Scotland) can already attack anyone on my property?

If you have time to worry about whether your actions are proportionate, self-defence etc etc then I might suggest you are not in immediate fear and possibly have time to run away which, in terms of Scotland at least, the law expects you to do rather than get involved. Generally speaking the prosecutors and the courts seem to apply common sense - its really only the odd Daily Mail distorted case where a burglar running away gets shot or chased and bludgeoned that results in a prosecution. Of course that once in 10yr event then gets cast into popular culture as being part of 'broken britain' even though when most people look at the facts they would agree it wasn't really self defence.

About time to.

Given that the last home owner to be convicted of a crime for "unreasonable" force was Tony Martin, who clearly had crossed the line, strikes me that this isn't a particularly necessary change in the law. It's just party conference grand standing. And timed to get headlines away from the additional welfare cuts from yesterday.

Maybe the government might like to consider some more pressing political or economic legislation in the meantime. (And, in the interests of balance, lets not forget the amount of time the last labour government wasted grandstanding to the anti hunting/toff lobby while they were in power)

So, has Binners got any decent bikes or frames in a medium that he is happy for me to break in and steal?

maccruiskeen - Member
No that's political correctness gone mad
care to expand?

Just how far do you want me to go...

[img] [/img]

Gweilo - so they were doing it within the law / getting away with it, it all amounts to the same.

It's just business as usual in that certain respect.

And you also want to be recognised as holder of a secret or something to leak so i'll indulge you - leak what you got. 🙄

Just one question - who is 'franics maude'?

Maccruiskeen-

Having disturbed burglars in my house I can vouch for being polite and obliging. Despite being outnumbered 3:1 you can just stand there and watch 3 people bounce off the walls with obsolete terror, and trying to escape by opening doors and running into cupboards. If one of them could have gotten the window open he'd have jumped two stories onto spiked railings to get out. Completely blinded by fear. I just stood there with my arms folded and said nothing.

Question is, were you just wearing crotchless leather hot pants and a smile at the time?? 😯

[i]you currently have similar self defence claims in Scotland to the current English position[/i]

Cool, thanks for that - and luckily I've land too 😉

Lifted this from another website. Read it and tell me why we need another change in the law:

A statement by the DPP under the last Labour government, Ken McDonald, talking about what is prosecutable and what is not::

"Householder/other victim not prosecuted:

Robbery at a newsagent's. One of the two robbers died after being stabbed by the newsagent. The CPS did not prosecute the newsagent but prosecuted the surviving robber who was jailed for six years (Greater Manchester);
A householder returned home to find a burglar in his home. There was a struggle during which the burglar hit his head on the driveway and later died. No prosecution of householder who was clearly acting in self-defence (Derbyshire);
Armed robbers threatened a pub landlord and barmaid with extreme violence. The barmaid escaped, fetched her employer's shotgun and shot at least one of the intruders. Barmaid not prosecuted (Hertfordshire);
Two burglars entered a house armed with a knife and threatened a woman. Her husband overcame one of the burglars and stabbed him. The burglar died. There was no prosecution of the householder but the remaining burglar was convicted (Lincolnshire);
A middle aged female took a baseball bat off a burglar and hit him over the head, fracturing his skull. The burglar made a complaint but the CPS refused to prosecute (Lancashire).

Examples of Prosecutions

A man laid in wait for a burglar on commercial premises, caught him, tied him up, beat him, threw him into a pit and set fire to him (Cheshire);
A number of people trespassed on private land to go night-time fishing. They were approached by a man with a shotgun who threatened to shoot them. They ran away but one of the men was shot in the back with a mass of 40 shotgun pellets (South Wales);
A householder lay in wait for a burglar who tried to burgle his shed. The householder shot him in the back (South Yorkshire)."

Question is, were you just wearing crotchless leather hot pants and a smile at the time

burglar or not, I think you'd kak yourself & run around like a headless chicken if you ever bumped into the third policeman in real life.

Question is, were you just wearing crotchless leather hot pants and a smile at the time??

at the time? [i]All[/i] the time. The weren't crotchless to begin with, but even leather ones wear out.

To be fair, if you've ever wanted to kill someone, the way to do it has always been to drive over them.

Crims are so dumb. There they are stabbing and shooting people and then going on the lamb.

Dickheads, just kill your victim with a car, drive round the nearest police station, own up to it, say it was an accident, oops. Never mind sir, totally understandable, here's a 3 month ban. Bye.

samurai do you have a list as you seem to have given this too much thought

You are not wrong though

So Binners, you actually have anything to say on the subject or are you just being deliberately provocative?

This was always going through & DC was just the bloke at the wheel when it came to rubber stamping it.

For me it's a good thing. For too long home-owners have felt unable to defend themselves & their property. The crux of the matter being "dis-proportionate force" & it's definition is very clear. Have you read it?

It's a vote winner and it's free. Shrewd move.

A householder lay in wait for a burglar who tried to burgle his shed. The householder shot him in the back (South Yorkshire).

Schoolboy error. Should have shouted "you dropped your wallet", waited till he turned and then shot him in the chest.

cynical will be leaving the country if this becomes law.

but I don't want to live in a country where you can lawfully shoot people because they've come into your house.

For me it's a good thing. For too long home-owners have felt unable to defend themselves & their property. The crux of the matter being "dis-proportionate force" & it's definition is very clear. Have you read it?

Have you read rogg's post? Home-owners have always been able to defend themselves. They may have felt they couldn't if they spent too much time reading/believing what it says in the tabloids. This is just shameless pandering to tabloid-generated frothing, based on misrepresentation of a tiny minority of cases.

My experience of finding a burglar in my house is limited to just the one occasion.

Caught a burglar in the kitchen after coming back from the pub, picked up a kitchen chair, smashed it over said burglars head, maybe kicked him once or twice whilst he was down and then dragged him out into the back garden by his hoodie.

Anyhow when the police finally arrive, they seemed fairly unconcerned when I told them, in fact they seemed to be positively quite cheery about it all. They took a statement and left happy.
Turns out it was a prolific offender who was about to get some serious time.

I never gave the burglar time to leave, didn't even cross my mind, I just wanted him out, my way. ( I was a bit drunk mind)

I even got compensation 🙂

EDIT: the point is 99.9% of burlagries are probably like this so it's really non news.