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Thats all very laudable Daz but unfortunately to do anything about any of that you have to get elected first. And the rhetoric and track record of people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Len McClusky scarres the horses.
When people are asked on an internet survey if they're concerned about the environment they answer that of course they are
When then asked if they've altered their own behavior in the face of the environmental crisis, they answer yes. But what they mean by that is that they now use cardboard drinking straws instead of plastic ones (because of that nice Mr Attenborough pointing out they kill turtles on that BBC on a Sunday night) and they make sure that those empty bottles of Australian Shiraz and Argentine Malbec go in the recycling
When the queation is changed to 'would you be prepared to forsake the sumptuously uphoulstered leather seats of your Audi and get on a bus instead?' then the answer is 'naaaah... **** that!'. They may not vocalise that, but thats the answer.
So you have to nudge pepole a step at a time. You have to get into power first, then start to alter behavior with policy initiatives, both carrot and stick. Otherwise people will vote with their feet. And their feet are saying 'heated wing mirrors and fresh strawberries in December
Like I said: deal with the world as it is, rather than as you'd like it to be. Otherwise you're on a hiding to nothing. Which is what most of us have seen as an apt description of the whole Corbynite 'project' for the last 4 years. There simply aren't the numbers of voters there to put it into effect. So a new aproach is needed. otherwise nothing will change, and righteous indignace might be a cosy comfort balnket for some, but it doesn't get us anywhere.
Labour hustings on you tube.
Worth a watch.
Thornberry clearly the best speaker. She's clearly got the biggest balls. Not sure about her politics.
Jess Phillips clearly out her depth. Thought she might come across better. No conviction.
RLB has got the best arguments but we know we need a bit more than that.
Nandy just blending into nothing.
Starmer pretty average here but consistent.
Best talker versus best ideas?
Well Boris has no idea and is a bumbling primate. And we knowo how that worked out.
Like I said: deal with the world as it is, rather than as you’d like it to be.
That’s exactly what labour, and Sanders in the US are doing. The science tells us radical and unprecedented action is required on climate change. There isn’t time to nudge and encourage people to change, the time for that was 20 years ago. This isn’t left wing utopianism, it’s basic common sense, and if you’re suggesting that policies like the green new deal are too extreme to be in government, then it’s not worth being in government.
Maybe if you shout that at people in Surrey and Sussex load enough and often enough they’ll all vote for Rebecca Long Bailey?
Worth bearing in mind that most people in Bradford and Workington wouldn’t vote for it last time out
Just a thought
Also worth noting that while the Labour Party leadership hopefuls all indulge the pathetic, middle-class, self-indulgent navel-gazing and righteous hectoring to satisfy the momentum ****-wits, the Tory’s,with their massive majority, which they just gift-wrapped for them, just spent 100 million quid of taxpayers money to bail out an airline
Now does that fit in with your climate crisis credentials, comrade? 🙄
Like I said: at some point the left is going to have to engage with the real world
All the ‘hopefuls’ are looking pretty competent at hustings to me. If they all end up in the shadow cabinet, and can work together, just maybe they can shake the party up…
RLB urged all to be ‘salespeople for socialism’
Ticking boxes for the Momentum crowd and gifting Boris ten years
Clueless
Utterly ****ing clueless
They still don’t get it
Unless things change radically, which hardly looks likely, the future of the Labour Party is as a puerile sixth form level placard-waving irrelevance
The Tory’s are praying for RLB and laughing their tits off
Socialism no longer flies with the lumpen proletariat. RLB doesn't get it.
Exactly. You can have policies which people will like and are based on socialist principles but never mention the S word as people don't like it. They don't understand it, but they don't understand very much but at least have the awareness that it needs to be avoided for a party to succeed.
The policies need to be almost hidden away for use when in power with just a few key popular policies shouted about for the next 5 years. The average voter can't handle 50 policies thrown at them but if they have only 3 and those 3 are things they like it would be a better start.
Oh, and have a leader people actually like...
“Policies, not ideologies”
“A better fairer Britain, not a socialist Britain”
“A government for everyone”
”Solving problems, not creating them”
“Building, not destroying”
“Education for all, not preaching on behalf of some”
“Looking after the old, not looking down on them”
“Releasing the potential of the young, not dismissing them”
“Leading the world when it comes to addressing the climate emergency, not disadvantaging ourselves”
Deeply unpopular I know … but try those on focus groups of voters who would never join any kind of “movement”.
Unless things change radically, which hardly looks likely
What are you blathering on about? All polls apart from one are saying Starmer is miles ahead. The reason for that is his support for the policies which you seem to suggest labour should abandon.
And on the climate change issue, it’s true people generally don’t want to know. On this issue more than any other they need honest leadership telling them that major action is long overdue. That’s what the green new deal policy does and everything should revolve around it for the next 5 years.
I’ll put it simply Dazh:
Every time a Labour front bencher says “comrade”, a government that would make serious strides towards addressing the climate emergency becomes less likely.
Let me put it even more simply, people need to grow up, including many on here. Who gives a toss whatever people call themselves? I’ve never used the word comrade in my life, nor have any of my mates who are a lot more active and involved than me. You really think the use of the word comrade is top of the priority list?
And those soundbites up there are exactly the sort of thing that puts people off politicians on account of them being meaningless patronising rubbish. If there's one thing I agree with Phillips on it's that politicians fooling the public with nice words and little action is where the problem is. Silly slogans and obsessing about 100 year old phrases are not going to get labour back into power.
I can guarantee you that Labour will **** this up.
They think "they know best" and don't realise that their job is to represent the public instead of telling them how ****ing stupid they are.
Which is why our Conservative lords and masters will keep slipping us the willy
Daz - what you’re doing is demonstrating the paradox at the heart of the present Labour Party. In order to win the leadership you have to predominantly advocate policies popular with the present momentum-heavy membership (banging on about socialism etc)
Unfortunately this is the very thing that repels the electorate. Thus in winning the leadership by pandering to one small specific group, you make yourself unelectable with the wider voting public
I’m, somewhat depressingly, coming to the realisation that we may never see another labour government. That will be Jeremy Corbyns, and to some extent Ed Millibands legacy.
The transformation of the labour ‘movement’ from a political party into a self-absorbed, self-indulgent, politically impotent protest movement
And nobody knows this more than Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings.
what you’re doing is demonstrating the paradox at the heart of the present Labour Party.
The paradox is putting huge effort into winning power, and then not wanting to do anything with it, especially at a time like now when we desperately need politicians who have the vision and courage to deal with the pressing problems of the day rather than continuing to hide our heads in the sand.
Socialism no longer flies with the lumpen proletariat. RLB doesn’t get it.
It didn't fly this time for a multitude of reasons.
Ultimately there won't be another option as market economics is collapsing. The only thing that will get out us of this is massive Government money pumped into the right areas.
Don't assume because the electorate didn't vote for it last time it won't be needed.
RLB is on the money. Far from clueless as constantly being repeated. The only person that's clueless is Jess. She ain't going to be leading the party any time soon.
The alternative is free market economics and Brexit at the same time so keep saying Socialism isn't wanted or needed.
Centrism will fix nothing by the way. That's the clueless option.
Centrism will get you in power then you can do what the **** you want.
Remember that one about generals always fighting the last battle, not the next one? The Labour party are charging Panzers on horseback.
Market economics is collapsing
Yet more delusional lefty wishful thinking.
I don’t know if you missed it but a party advocating free-market economics just won a thumping great majority and a party advocating socialism got absolutely trounced
Listened to Jess Phillips on R5 this morning. Unfortunately she was hopelessly under prepared for some soft basic questions that veered away from the usual. She has clearly underestimated the size of the job and the preparation needed to be able field questions across the spectrum of issues. The excuse of "it's not what I am asked about on the doorstep" points out the difference in level needed to step up from backbencher to leader.
Still waiting for the killer questions for Starmer, "what documents did you see in relation to CSE when you were head of the CPS" and "how many CSE cases passed to the CPS by the police did you determine were not to be prosecuted"
Yet more delusional lefty wishful thinking.
It's not wishful thinking. We have a monetary system based on an unsustainable pyramid scheme which relies on money being created out of nothing and infinite amounts of natural resources to fuel perpetual growth. That would be bad enough but the lion's share of this money goes to people and corporations at the top rather than the general population, which has created a massive build up of personal debt. When the bubble bursts it will make 2008 look like childs play.
Just because people voted for a party which refuses to do anything about this doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. And why would they tories do anything about it? Because their backers and the people they represent do very well out of it. You claim the left wants collapse, but they are the only ones proposing solutions to prevent it, because they know who will lose out when it happens. You've got all this the wrong way round.
Centrism will get you in power then you can do what the **** you want.
You mean like last time? Even if they did try that the reality is that you can't 'do what you want' unless you have the mandate and the time to get results from the policies. Most labour policies will take more than one term, some more than two. If they don't have the voters behind the policies you simply can't implement them.
You do know how democracy works, right?
Do you think you’ll ever see another Labour government?
Given what I’ve heard from the hustings, pandering to Momentum, I don’t
Momentum is busy establishing a one party state
They’ll be able to keep waving their placards and signing online petitions though, so they’re happy enough.
The poor, disadvantaged and disabled, not so much
But as long as everyone in the common room is happy, wallowing in their own righteousness ...
So a Labour leader should pander to the electorate to get elected but shouldn't pander to the Labour membership in order to get elected- is that right binbins?
Did you go to sixth form? I'm wondering why your so obsessed with it.
Is there any evidence out there that suggests labour lost the election because of their socialist policies?
I would say the loss was down to the brexit plan
Labour gambled by trying to drag the election away from brexit and that really has backfired now because everybody can blame the loss on any aspect of labours campaign but it really isn't clear to me what the outcome would have been without brexit.
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
The present Labour Party, after 4 years of Corbynism is a complete and utter ****ing shambles
Totally unelectable
As they’ve just shown
And I don’t see anything getting any better any time soon
I truly believe, watching these idiots, that we will never again see a labour government
That’s Corbyns legacy
But as long as everyone in the common room is happy, wallowing in their own righteousness …
I always enjoy you complaining about others' self-righteousness.
Glad to be of service, comrade
What have the romans ever done for us?
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
It will not be permanent. As usual we will get some incompetent ministers that makes silly decisions based on vanity.
The present Labour Party, after 4 years of Corbynism is a complete and utter ****ing shambles
No surprise there based on the GE result.
Totally unelectable
As they’ve just shown
I agree but due credit should go to their entertainment value otherwise politics would be boring.
And I don’t see anything getting any better any time soon
20 years minimum.
Look at the calibre of all the current candidates or even the younger ones, me think they are stuck in a loop.
I truly believe, watching these idiots, that we will never again see a labour government
Very high probability that as I think there will be new opposition party(s) that may more be in tune with the people.
That’s Corbyns legacy
No, that credit is not his but the way Labour party lost their ways. i.e. looking after the working class in name only but slowly tightening the noose on them in the background.
Glad to be of service, comrade
What have the romans ever done for us?
How sweet of you to live down to expectations.
What an arsehole of a woman that buffoon Nandy is.
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
If the world goes to shit because of climate change and unfettered capitalism I couldn't really give a **** who the government is, it's the same result. This year carbon concentrations reached 415ppm. The last time it was that high the world was 3.5c hotter, and they're still rising. At that temperature the Amazon will be gone, the oceans dead and the ice caps irreversably melting. It's ok though cos we could have a nice labour government dishing out a bit more money to the poor and telling everyone to recycle more.
Is there any evidence out there that suggests labour lost the election because of their socialist policies?
I would say the loss was down to the brexit planLabour gambled by trying to drag the election away from brexit and that really has backfired now because everybody can blame the loss on any aspect of labours campaign but it really isn’t clear to me what the outcome would have been without brexit.
I would say that there isn't a single reason they lost, arguably there are three 1: was because rather than fight on the manifesto they decided to keep adding stuff in, nearly everyday billions of additional spending was added in 2: JC and his cronies were to a lot of people toxic, the reasons why were many and because of that it reached places normally solid labour. 3: the campaign was run to keep the left elected in labour, activists were sent from constituencies they should have kept to one's where either they were solid or where they had no chance but a defector was standing. This happened in Binners world of Bury North, why? Try and find a picture of the former MP and Corbyn together.....
Very high probability that as I think there will be new opposition party(s) that may more be in tune with the people.
It won't be Jo Swinson's Lib Dems, although it might be someone else's.
Any other contenders?
Sounds like Phillips is out… as she has no big union backing.
To be honest, she hasn’t proven herself during the leadership campaign at all, has she?
Who’s surprised and impressed me?
Thornberry & Butler
Who’ll win?
Starmer & Rayner
Who’d be a genuine nightmare?
Burgon
Much sooner have Rosena Allin-Khan as deputy than Rayner.
She’d already impressed me as well, during the general election campaign. But Butler has surprised me, and Rayner will win, and Burgon comes across more and more as someone with the potential to kill the party.
Cue lots of clueless type comments...
Kelvin - what has Butler said/done to impress?
I've never heard her say anything vaguely intelligent.
I see Phillips is already getting her excuses ready about being too common rather than the real reason that she's just not very good and people in the party don't have a much time for her due to her spending the last few years promoting herself by trashing the party and it's leadership. Good riddance.
Good riddance
Labour's attitude to anyone vaguely electable. 😉
You mean like last time? Even if they did try that the reality is that you can’t ‘do what you want’ unless you have the mandate and the time to get results from the policies. Most labour policies will take more than one term, some more than two. If they don’t have the voters behind the policies you simply can’t implement them.
The big difference is that the executive now has more or less un-fettered power and that's due to get worse after the exit bill legislation is enacted. There's a huge swathe of Henry VIII style prerogative been allowed. Do what's necessary and then repeal those powers.
Labour’s attitude to anyone vaguely electable.
I said just after the election that the right of the party had sown the seeds of their own defeat due to their actions in the preceding 4 years and now we see the result. Phillips thought she could just waltz in with her media profile and clean up, but she didn't consider that she'd need a good portion of the grassroots behind her to get on the ballot. She wouldn't have got on the ballot even by playing a blinder against the other candidates, but the reality is that she has been extremely mediocre.
Never had any time for Jess and almost laughed at the weekend when she said a great token gesture would be for KS to stand aside for a female leader. That's literally all she had
Philips had to impress at hustings to win over a big union… she hasn’t, and she didn’t. Only two candidates had union backing sewn up from the start… all the others have to earn it. She hasn’t. The members probably would have avoided her like the plague anyway, but it’s immaterial now… no big union backing means members can’t vote for her anyway.
A timely reminder that a very large proportion of the population do not want a few big unions having a veto over who can be PM… so having a system that means that any Labour leader must have a big union publicly backing them tars that leader from the offset… whoever wins this race has their first albatross hung around their neck before they even seek the backing of party members.
A candidate doesn't need Union backing to get on the final ballot.
The more I see Starmer the less I like him. Thought I'd check things I'm interested in:
Voted for and against EU citizens' rights to stay in the UK
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25353/keir_starmer/holborn_and_st_pancras/divisions?policy=6764
Changed his mind on Europe and voted to empower the Tories to leave:
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25353/keir_starmer/holborn_and_st_pancras/divisions?policy=6761
Voted against an investigation into the Iraq war having argued it was illegal before the war
(Guardian articel 2003)
I don't have a vote but if I had he wouldn't get it. In fact without Jess in the race I'm struggling to find the candidate I dislike least. Not good for a center-left voter.
A candidate doesn’t need Union backing to get on the final ballot.
If a candidate gets on the final ballet without the backing of a big union… then you can say that.
I’ve read the rules, and you are right, union backing in not necessary by the letter of the rules, but they are written so that, in practice, you absolutely do need the backing of a big union to get on the ballot. Without the backing of a big union, you have no real chance of becoming leader of the Labour Party. New rules… but it still looks like the same old union control to voters who are shy of the power of union leaders.
It won’t be Jo Swinson’s Lib Dems, although it might be someone else’s.
Any other contenders?
I think things will have to get even worse for the non-Tories before there's a fresh approach.
It's not a change that can happen in a single government term, it'll be a multi-generational thing, I mean look at UKIP [spits on the ground] they're the most 'exciting' thing to happen to UK politics in decades, but it took them 25 years and a LOT of backers to got where they got, but they share the fate of lots of other start-up parties, as soon as they start making real noise, one of the big parties will evolve to take a few of their policies as their own and they'll cease to exist.
Well labour folks we need a half decent horse with four legs two eyes and can run in a straight line, to be frank whining that Kier Starmers not quite right when the rest of the line up can barely muster four legs between then is procrastination at best.
He is the only viable option to get Labour heading back to power, its not a choice its simply all there currently is.
I think things will have to get even worse for the non-Tories before there’s a fresh approach.
Labour have to lose the next General Election before there is a ‘non-Tory’ approach of any kind emerging. Sadly for the UK. Some of the other parties tried some joint “stop the Tories” stuff this time, but it’s all pointless while Labour feel they are just ‘one more push’ away from getting a majority in the commons on their own. Where they keep getting the impression that’s the case is anyone’s case. I blame Blair.
one of the big parties will evolve to take a few of their policies as their own and they’ll cease to exist
[ Greens in England are about to experience that - or you could argue they have already ]
I mean look at UKIP [spits on the ground] they’re the most ‘exciting’ thing to happen to UK politics in decades, but it took them 25 years and a LOT of backers to got where they got, but they share the fate of lots of other start-up parties
Well yes, exactly, UKIP were always dead as soon as a mainstream took on Brexit. But "their purpose" is done now, anyway, a single issue protest party (I'm being generous) can't survive when they get what they want.
people in the party don’t have a much time for her due to her spending the last few years promoting herself by trashing the party and it’s leadership. Good riddance.
But people outside the party seem to like her a lot and labour not listening to the people was the reason they got creamed in the last GE. Also, she may have been trashing the party and it's leadership, but for good reason, the party was directionless and the leadership poor.
She's intelligent, NOT from London and has some good ideas. Hopefully we'll see more of her in the future.
@Dazh. Agreed. Why anyone ever thought she was leader material is beyond me.
She probably realised it's a more tricky job than just warbling on telly or having a photo-shoot.
Also, she may have been trashing the party and it’s leadership, but for good reason,
Good for her publisher, I'm sure. I've far more time for Starmer, who rolled up his sleeves and got on with the job.
But people outside the party seem to like her a lot and labour not listening to the people was the reason they got creamed in the last GE
The people listened to Boris Johnson ... Is that the archetype we need to win?
Johnson was disloyal towards his party leadership, that has helped him. If loyalty to the party is put to the fore, it may contradict with the qualities needed to win over the public. But that’s the core dilemma the other candidates are left with… Nandy, Phillips, Lewis and Thornberry have all made pitches with an eye to beating Johnson, including changing the party to try and make it more electable… which rules them all out… Starmer and Long-Bailey are playing to the party faithful, they have to. It’s about “uniting the party”, or “saving the project’. Only after one of them is leader will either if those put their cards on the table about how to win over the voters (or, I fear, don’t).
Anyone who saw the hustings couldn't think Phillips would make a good leader. She seemed out of her depth and downbeat when the party, and I think the country, is looking for inspiring leadership. She even wrote an article attempting to explain why she was "awful" (her self description). Her criticism of the hustings format may be legitimate but it's exactly the format that gets coverage in PMQs, election debates and used in media interviews.
Thornberry on the other hand was the opposite - feisty, funny and generally sounding like a leader. Nandy was pretty good too. Neither have much chance as the competition has always been a run off between RLB an Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/19/hustings-labour-leader-jess-phillips
Phillips was awful at hustings, Thornberry shined, Nandy had clearly thought it all through. Starmer and Long-Bailey came across as wanting to manage the party… not outward facing at all… but, again, that’s what they have to do right now.
Shone!
Starmer needs a voice coach.
Shone!
Apologies.
Starmer needs a voice coach.
He needs a different personality. He’d be a great PM in my opinion… but he’s not shown even a hint of what it takes to become one in this messed up age.
Good focus group on Channel 4 news last night covering Labour leader candidates. A room full of average 'working class' voters who had switched to Tory
Nandy came out top, Starmer and Long Bailey came out bottom. Starmer was seen as dull and corporate (just as I have been saying) can't remember what they said about Long Bailey but wasn't good either.
Interestingly Nandy was the person none of them recognised whereas they all recognised Starmer.
They were then told that Starmer and RLB were favourites and they all laughed.
If Labour want a chance with the public they need to go with focus groups rather than internal elections. They should have at least learnt that from last few years...
OTOH, guardian survey put Starmer at the top.
If Labour want a chance with the public they need to go with focus groups rather than internal elections. They should have at least learnt that from last few years
A room full of Tory voters get to select the Labour leader?
I think Phillips is right to be downbeat, they are collectively in the crap with little hope of climbing out.
Labour are still pandering to Momentum and the Unions rather than the great unwashed who need to elect them.
No - the focus groups tell them what's happening outside the party. I'd choose Nandy precisely for the reasons C4 pointed out. RLB would be pummelled by the press and I'm not sure Thornberry would connect with enough of the UK
A room full of Tory voters get to select the Labour leader?
Not quite. A room full of ex labour voters (until the last election), i.e the ones Labour need to appeal to again.
And clearly they would need to be 1,000 of focus group sessions with different types of voters.
I would be absolutely amazed if many of the focus groups came out with RLB as the leader they would support but don't let that stop the labour party members electing her.
I don't want Starmer to get the leadership this time around as I think it would be a waste. Everything, even something as patently unpopular and insular as Corbynism, will need to be tried out under another leader just to be sure it really wasn't Grandpa that was the problem.
Let RLB have it this time, really show the nonsense for what it is, then get the grownups in.
Everything, even something as patently unpopular and insular as Corbynism, will need to be tried out under another leader just to be sure it really wasn’t Grandpa that was the problem.
God, no.
Bury it at midnight, at a crossroads, in a lead coffin with a stake through it's heart.
Labour should learn and move forward, not spin on it's willy and expect the world to come to it, just to prove what is clear and without doubt to all.
That would leave the UK in the grip of BoJo for 10+ years
God, no.
What I meant was that the sixth formers won't take the election defeat for an answer. It will have to be repeated under another leader for them to be shown up and have to accept it. We are talking about loss of face for people who pride themselves on ideological purity here!
With any luck it wouldn't necessarily take another GE defeat to actually precipitate the change.
I fear that is exactly what it’ll take.
I don’t want Starmer to get the leadership this time around as I think it would be a waste. Everything, even something as patently unpopular and insular as Corbynism, will need to be tried out under another leader just to be sure it really wasn’t Grandpa that was the problem.
Let RLB have it this time, really show the nonsense for what it is, then get the grownups in.
I sort of agree, the problem is that Labour leaders (in fact all leaders) have a habit of keeping power with a vice-like grip, without giving a single shit about how it affects the party's chances. Especially with a fanatical following like Momentum bestow on their chosen Comrades. Short of being found with a dead prostitute, or dying they'll not be shifted without a big GE loss. I don't fancy RLB having 5 years as LotO with her odd mix of Socialist and religious zealot leanings.
It will have to be repeated under another leader for them to be shown up and have to accept it.
You would have thought that one Milliband and two Corbyn GE defeats would be enough so that a win in the next decade would be 'a good thing'
You would have thought that one Milliband and two Corbyn GE defeats would be enough so that a win in the next decade would be ‘a good thing’
Yes, you would.
But we are talking about Momentum here.
"It is not us that is the problem. No, it is the electorate that must change".
Nandy has just made the final stage. With preference voting I think members etc will take a punt on Nandy with the understanding that it is how they order Starmer and RLB down the ballot that will matter.
I still don't think Nandy will win but a good showing will give her a v senior position in a Starmer cabinet if he's got any sense
Y'all do realise that Momentum make up less than 10% of all Labour members?
Y’all do realise that Momentum make up less than 10% of all Labour members?
I think they're more comforted with the fictitious idea that the labour party is controlled by an all-powerful marxist cabal with Che Guevara t-shirts. Even if that were true, it wouldn't be momentum as they're an entirely different group from the old trots and commies from the 70s and 80s.
Y’all do realise that Momentum make up less than 10% of all Labour members?
Y'all do realise that the ERG is also a small cabal within the Tories, yet they have got them dancing to their tune too.
Albeit with a neo fascist party to the side to increase their pressure, but I am sure you get the picture.
Y’all do realise that the ERG is also a small cabal within the Tories, yet they have got them dancing to their tune too.
That silly analogy comes up time and time again.
The ERG are elected MPs with absolute influence and voting power in Parliament.
Is/was Laura Parker the equivalent of Jacob Rees-Mogg?
No I don't think so either.