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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37833311
What will they get?
Hawk T-165s or something more exotic?
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"something more exotic?"
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37823554 ]Something from India?[/url]
Whatever in red?
Well given cutbacks possibly these
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They'll just look further away.
USAF are currently running bids for 'TX' training aircraft with three planes in the running - Hawk dismissed and down to fight between Boeing/Saab, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed with the KAI T-50. MOD will take twice as long to buy a fraction of the number and won't have any pilot instructors...
My money's on more Hawks - British air force, british pilots (plus secondments) with british jets to keep the marketing exercise going
Crikey. I remember them using the Gnat. I feel old.
I guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?
P-Jay - MemberI guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?
Was just thinking Typhoons or F-35s. Some idiot in government will probably send everything that way and suddenly we'll end up with a display 'team' consisting of 1 aircraft
They should just use some Reapers. It would be cheaper as the pilots could just work from home.
^^ like
Air forces like commonality so I'd imagine that the front runner would be some sort of Hawk, given the Hawk T.2 is used to train RAF pilots. Perhaps an austere version of the T.2 will be developed, which doesn't include all the expensive electronics required to training pilots to fly Typhoons and Lightning IIs but which shares the airframe, engine and as much else as possible with the regular T.2?
Alternatively more and more air forces are using turboprop aircraft for their display teams so perhaps the Red Arrows will do the same. The RAF's Tucanos are being replaced with Beechcraft T-6 Texan IIs so perhaps they'll get a few for the Reds as well as for pilot instruction?
[quote=ChrisL ]Air forces like commonality so I'd imagine that the front runner would be some sort of Hawk, given the Hawk T.2 is used to train RAF pilots. Perhaps an austere version of the T.2 will be developed, which doesn't include all the expensive electronics required to training pilots to fly Typhoons and Lightning IIs but which shares the airframe, engine and as much else as possible with the regular T.2?Commonality and flying-the-flag makes the T2 a dead cert.
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scotroutes - Member
Commonality and flying-the-flag makes the T2 a dead cert.
T.2s are horrendously expensive, as modern jet fighters are complex beasts and so a complex trainer is required for them. I doubt the RAF could justify acquiring 10+ more for the Red Arrows unless they find some way to make them cheaper. Hence my speculation that an austere version may be one solution.
oh gawwd you just no some nutjob brexiteer is going to start a petition to ask for these
which is apt for our inwards turning society
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Post Brexit, these.
Actually I don't see the point of the Red Arrows. All they do is blat around making noise and polluting the sky.
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Go back to being the black diamonds, with Hawker Hunters!
Love the dog outfit....what happens when you say 'smoke on....go!' ??
The Red 'Arras tend to use whatever the RAF is using as a fast Jet training Aircraft
If they get new planes, will that allow them to relax the restrictions on shows over land? Based on the restrictions have come following Shoreham, but part of the concern with Shoreham was aerobatics with aged aircraft.
Obviously there's still worry about flying over residential areas, but they've been restricting even when following the flight line away from the public and flying out over non residential lands (Farnborough for example, flying out over MOD common lands).
These?
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Four tranche 1 Typhoons? These were ear-marked for retirement soon but I know some are staying on purely in the air-defence role.
That way the Reds would still be flying a partly British aircraft that looks just like the latest models still being built & marketed around the world. Running four of them opposed to 10 probably wouldn't shake the budget up too much and fewer pilots would be needed.
Else, didn't we just order P8's from Boeing 😆
Surely they will just go Amazon or ebay and search for a red drone? Probably end up with a fake version of whatever they want shipped on a slow boat from China and then get hit with import duty and a royal mail handling charge.
Kimbers. Interesting choice of plane with PL983 😉
I wondered how long it would be before the 'b' word was mentioned. Life goes on Kimbers.oh gawwd you just no some nutjob brexiteer is going to start a petition to ask for these
Life goes on Kimbers.
It does, sadly now filled with nutjob brexiteers
@bikebouy have you never seen them at the Dartmouth Regatta ? Wonderful.
Good to hear the team will continue. Hopefully in some decent kit.
P-Jay - Member
I guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?Was just thinking Typhoons or F-35s. Some idiot in government will probably send everything that way and suddenly we'll end up with a display 'team' consisting of 1 aircraft
Totally unfeasible, the whole point of using trainers like the Hawk is that they're light and highly manoeuvrable, but are also capable of being fitted with a light weapon load, making them attractive as a cheap combat aircraft for foreign sales.
We could do worse than buy these:
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Textron AirLand Scorpion, developed as a minimal cost attack and ISR (Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) platform, able to carry up to 6200lb of ordnance on underwing pylons
Only problem is it's not a British built aircraft.
Typhoons wouldn't be a very good option for the Red Arrows. Too capable and the capability of the aircraft is not suitable for the type of routines that the Red Arrow's do, which is all about showing off pilot skills and precision flying. There is no skill involved in flying a Typhoon as the pilot doesn't fly it, they simply provide instructions into a computer that flies the aircraft for them leaving the pilot clinging on and grunting like a pig to prevent G-Lock. These slow speed, high G turns you see these gen 5 fighters doing at airshows are simply about raw power, and raw power costs big cash.
Aye, but I'd rather see and hear a typhoon any day! 😀
. There is no skill involved in flying a Typhoon
That explains why just any numpty is a fighter pilot then silly us thinking it takes years of training , it's just a skills day and away they go.
Putin should be laughing Sergei....compare ze air display.com says Russian use front line fighter aircraft, British use clapped out 70s trainer that needs replacing, which shows the of the Air Force best.
Why not just give a Spitfire. That'll wind up the remoaners and those that hate an Independant Britain. 😆
Why not use Spitfires?
Easy to build, easy to maintain, incredible sound, etc.
Introduce modern materials, engine tweaks and they would be a show stopper every time.
Why not use Spitfires?
Cos it's a bit pathetic to be always harking back to our glory days 60 years ago?
@hammyuk, agreed. What a sight that would be, especially if they were all painted up in WW2 style, pilots dress in the correct uniforms with handlebar moustaches.
@mogrim don't be such a misery. Everything country did in the past is a museum why not the Red Arrows, just think of the tourist money.
@mogrim don't be such a misery. Everything country did in the past is a museum why not the Red Arrows, just think of the tourist money.
AFAIK it's only the UK that's obsessed with Spitfires, so there's not much tourist money in it. And as an advert for today's RAF I'd rather the Red Arrows were using something current, not 70 year old technology.
Do the RAF get a discount on the planes they buy for the Red Arrows?
So what are they going to use then Mogrim?
The mix of old and new would be a huge talking point.
Modern revisions to the engines and airframes.
Would make for fast planes with an incredible sound and something unique.
As for there being no obsession elsewhere?
Bollocks - the yanks have more of them than anyone else and actively scour the world buying them up as fast as they can!
The market there and the shows, etc is in the millions.
Still not convinced, although it's a good question (and the source of this thread) what plane they should use. An updated Hawk would seem to be the obvious choice.
There are significant limitation on the operation of warbirds anywhere near built up areas, so it is not very feasible for them to be used as it would impose severe limitations to where they could perform. Also the Red Arrows are a great advert for the UK (all the more important in light of Brexit) and spend most of their time performing around the world doing a great job flying the flag for Britain. The logistics of getting a squadron of Spitfires around the world to perform everywhere in one season would be impossible. And secondly the performance of the aircraft themselves is not good enough. Modern revisions to the engines and airframes? You're effectively talking about the development of a new aircraft type - and that costs hundreds of millions of pounds - and there are no current guidelines about how to actually do this let alone people still alive who can engineer the revisions. We're not talking about some boy racer buying a load of bolt-on bits from Halfords for their Corsa here. You can't just modify aircraft willy-nilly without gong through a thorough and exhaustive airworthiness programme. This is why aircraft are so expensive - the value of an aircraft in terms of it's constituent parts is nothing, the value of an aircraft is in the fact it has cost hundreds of million of pounds/dollars or even billions in the case of some military aircraft, to develop and certify these things.
They have no option but to stick with Hawks, or if they are going to deviate from whatever the RAF are using as their fast jet trainer, then it will be another similar off the shelf trainer.
The market there and the shows, etc is in the millions.
If true then you'd think someone would have done it by now. But they haven't so...