[Closed] Nelson Mandela - what did he actually do?

Classy

So he spent 27 years in prison for activities that most reasonable people wouldn't consider criminal

I would consider a bombing campaign criminal.

so what has he done? president of South Africa? Bizarre question.

Why not use the internet to search for 'Nelson Mandela', then you can educate yourself in a much less confrontational way about him, and then make up your own mind regarding his activities?

or a dirty protest as the IRA prisoners did?

You're right, Mandela didn't even smear his own shit onto his cell walls. Never thought of that. Puts the whole "icon against injustice" into perspective.

Amazing

Nobodies mentioned his services to the garish shirt industry yet?

Every now and again, someone comes along who makes you question the whole concept of "freedom of speech." 😉

The bizarre Monday morning threads continue. I am feeling very left out at missing what was obviously a massive party somewhere last night. Was I the only forum member not invited and still sober this morning?

Does 'Truth and reconciliation' mean nothing to you OP....? Despite some serious incidents he was president during a time when one political and social reality became another. Probably the smoothest and most peaceful transition that could be achieved in the circumstances.

Good call binners, he has also provided the rhyming slang name for a pint of Leuven's finest export.

He named the bar at Bristol Uni Union. Or technically one of the bars, but it was the biggest one.

In addition to Nelson Mandela, what about Stephen Beko? 🙁

It would have been easier for Beko/Nelson Mandela etc to flee the country and start life quietly elsewhere.

But they didn't.

Did he not win the Rugby World cup?

he wrote a book as well ..it has far less fiction in that than your fanciful OP but it has been more widely read

In addition to Nelson Mandela, what about Stephen Beko?

I think Beko will be remembered longer for his range of white goods, that for any African Political shenanigans.

The rather impressive list on wikipedia of stuff named after Nelson Mandela seems to have left out the Mandela Bar in Leicester University student union (changed its name again in the 90's to something else) and of course Nelson Mandela House in Only Fools and Horses.

I shared a drink (or two) with some township locals in Cape Town some years back. In between the drunken mumbling the over-riding message was that they had little respect for Mandela. Granted it could have been minority views, but it's stuck with me ever since.

....the over-riding message was that they had little respect for Mandela

Not everyone in SA is pro-ANC or anti-apartheid ?

Well the mask is certainly starting to slip from Mandela's face.

He was the 'catalyst' for change.

Well the mask is certainly starting to slip from Mandela's face.

😆

Your dry, amusing but pertinent point is taken. However as a relative youngster back then, my illusion that everyone who was black and poor in SA loved Mandela was certainly shattered.

it was the young South Africans boycotting the schools and demonstrating in the streets that did far more to galvanise world opinion against apartheid.

Whether it was a good idea or not is an entirely different question: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/07/opinion/07iht-robe.html

You, sir, are a numpty. You are succeeding neither at trolling (the point of trolling is not to get caught trolling) nor at being provocative and daring (you're just showing that even thirty more seconds on wikipedia would have made you much better informed).

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Junkyard - lazarus

he wrote a book as well ..it has far less fiction in that than your fanciful OP but it has been more widely read

Doffs cap.

troll

His chiropodist also provided a generation of schoolboys with humour based on the way defeat and de feet can be confused.

I spent nearly in a year in SA during '87-88 and can attest that the world was very much a different place then. From my point of view the only non-whites at my school were the groundsmen. No black people lived in my street, or were allowed on the beaches or train carriages I frequented.

Very few of you actually realise how bad it was for black South Africans at that time. Granted, there are still social problems that desperately need to be fixed, but post-Apartheid SA could so easily have become another Zimbabwe, or worse. My school practiced riot drills regularly, there was a grim expectation of an apocalypse in event of revolution there, which thankfully never happened.

It takes a great man to go toe to toe with his former oppressors and forgive them, to acknowledge the past without using it as an excuse to perpetuate further violence and injustice. For me, Mr Mandela is the greatest politician of modern times, while I am saddened at his frail health, I also hope that the example he set us remains for a long time yet.

have you not seen his advertising campaigns?

[url= http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1993/mandela-article.html ]Try this[/url] OP.

Nicely put PJM1974. I think it's worth remembering though, that unlike Zimbabwe, white people in SA were deeply involved at the very highest levels of the anti-Apartheid movement and in the ANC, had this been the case in Zimbabwe reconciliation might have been a little easier there. And popular support for the anti-Apartheid movement among young whites particularly evolved in the final years - when Mandela made that famous long walk from the prison gates upon his release, welcomed by cheering crowds either side of him, he afterwards commented how surprised he had been by the amount of white people present - South Africa was a different country by then to the one which had originally incarcerated him.

EDIT : The National Party which ruled SA throughout the Apartheid era ended up merging with the ANC ! In contrast in Zimbabwe whites and the UK government never fully honoured their obligations under the Lancaster House Agreement, they appeared unconcerned about the future of Zimbabwe preferring instead to wash their hands of it. imo

So he spent 27 years in prison for activities that most reasonable people wouldn't consider criminal,

Blowing up sub stations and burning crops not criminal?

He also gave universities all over the UK a new name for their Union bars.

I think it's worth remembering though, that unlike Zimbabwe, white people in SA were deeply involved at the very highest levels of the anti-Apartheid movement and in the ANC, had this been the case in Zimbabwe reconciliation might have been a little easier there.

There was also a far more significant dynamic at work in SA at the time. Although we might look back at it being mainly a black/white struggle you need to remember that black South Africans are deeply divided along racial grounds too - more so than English and Afrikaner for example. There was fear of a power struggle between various factions fuelling a civil war. Mandela had to court the Zulu vote even more carefully than the white vote. IIRC there where some [i]thirteen[/i] different tribal groups which were broadly and oft insultingly termed "Bantu" by the segregationists, these had separate traditions and languages too.

Were divisions among black South Africans greater than in Zimbabwe ? All things considered I reckon that animosity between Inkatha/Buthelezi and ANC/Mandela was no worse than as between the PF and Bishop Muzorewa, probably less so.

Well, I've never been to Zimbabwe and cannot compare. But ANC and Inkatha were deeply divided and violence at rallies was a massive problem for some considerable time.

On a side topic, my missus has an aunt who dated Chief Buthelezi's son at one point. He stayed with my missus's parents a few years back!

He is best known for his lovely garden that BBC's Ground Force installed for him, it was this program that made him a household name.

Did he not win the Rugby World cup?

For many years, thanks to the South African accent, I assumed that he was responsible for selling a particular brand of Japanese car.

Shona vs Ndebele (I think) Ernie, put together by us colonials! Artificial country drawn up without regard to tribal differences etc. Hardly a recipe for success.

Mandela stands out IMO for two remarkable things: (1) extraordinary forgiveness (OP have you visited Robben Island and imagined how you would feel after being imprisoned there?); (2) his ability to dumbfound the naysayers by ignoring populist politics/economics (unlike many other emerging market leaders) and face the realities and challenge of the global economy (despite the very slow progress this has made for large numbers of his supporters).

He refused to renounce violence, something which even scum like Martin McGuinness did.

Kind of agree with Drac
Troll post, in that the OP hasnt bothered to reply to any of the posters,counter argument,that kind of thing.
However
How old is the OP? Many people alive now do not and cannot understand the mentality of those after the 2nd world war. This kind of makes it a non troll post('non troll post'??,fk me, im losing it 😯 )

Lets look at least at some of the facts we all know about what goes on amongst the people in a conquered country. (French resistance jumps to mind but would that be different?? one is forced to inquire)
So we have a people who disagree with the new rulers of their country and want them out.
We know the 'newbies' have used extreme brutality in its occupation and its highly likely many of its peoples were killed in the futile attempt to defend their country.
Is it so difficult to see that armed insurrection will follow and that the fighters of that force will use all means to drive the invaders out(im thinking Iraq now 😉 )
Some will, be caught, some summarily executed and some will be tried and executed and some will be tried and imprisoned
MrM was in the group that was tried and imprisoned

Eventually the world changed for the slightly better and the invaders left. Mr M is released and the Armed insurrection he was part of realised long before that armed conflict doesnt really do anyone any good in that it destroys the infrastructure of the country. What is left to fight for is in ruins and that though good to have the country back basically means that its somewhere in the stone-age and problems will be insurmountable.

Mr M became a figurehead, a martyr in his own lifetime.
The Invaders knew they couldnt kill him as that could very well cause outrage around the world(leading to more problems) and create a martyr.
Their real problems started when they imprisoned him. If he had been executed we might well have found the struggle would be going on today and Africa would be in the hands of the UK

My ex F.I.L. is old school white "Seth Efrican" his views on "the blick" as he puts it when in company,(I will not use the terms he uses in private) are genuinely absolutely shocking; much worse even than the "send 'm all home" racists we have in this country. How anyone can view every single member of another race as sub-human and fit only to serve him and his ilk, under strict supervision of course (as they are all thieves) is beyond me. I have also been unfortunate enough to meet some of his white South African friends and they seem to be exactly the same. They all also seem to hold Mandela personally responsible for "destroying our way of life" So, even if Nelson Mandela had not been instrumental in bringing this vile culture to an end in my view he deserves all the recognition he gets for the personal anguish he appears to have caused this particular odious little man and his equally abhorrent friends.

dyna-ti: the apartheid white regime was not an occupying force in the same way that the Nazis in WW2 France or US/UK in Iraq were. That's nonsense. Your analogy just creates more confusion than clarity.

And as for

If he had been executed we might well have found the struggle would be going on today and Africa would be in the hands of the UK

Blowing up sub stations and burning crops not criminal?

tinsy - Member
He is best known for his lovely garden that BBC's Ground Force installed for him, it was this program that made him a household name.

I think it may have been his routing of the combined fleets of the French Navy and Spanish Navy, during the War of the Third Coalition of the Napoleonic Wars.

That's nonsense- it was his stunning performance as Chief Jack Mannion in popular TV police show "The District" that endeared him to millions.

Well, it was certainly "criminal" in the sense that it was illegal under the South African law of the time. But you're just highlighting the difference between illegal and immoral, especially in apartheid South Africa.

I'd put it to you that its "criminal" under pretty much every political or social regime in the world.

The OP wasn't about morality, the OP said he served 27 years for [i]"activities that most reasonable people wouldn't consider criminal[/i]" - now, you can argue that they were morally justified in the circumstances, but had they gone unpunished where would it have stopped?

At what point is it acceptable to use violent and destructive tactics in the belief that you're morally justified? Burning down shops in the name of animal rights? stealing racehorses to extract money for the IRA? flying planes into buildings?

At what point is it acceptable to use violent and destructive tactics in the belief that you're morally justified?

Um, see every war fought by every country for ever and ever?

I went on a free Nelson Mandela demo in London with a very beautiful young lady. Great vibe, although I had to endure simple minds in Hyde park. Had a fantastic and memeroble night...Cheers Nelson.

what did he actually do?

A much better job than Robert Mugabe.

Nice fractals though.

Har de har, CBIL.

teamhurtmore - Member

Mandela stands out IMO for two remarkable things: (1) extraordinary forgiveness (OP have you visited Robben Island and imagined how you would feel after being imprisoned there?); (2) his ability to dumbfound the naysayers by ignoring populist politics/economics (unlike many other emerging market leaders) and face the realities and challenge of the global economy (despite the very slow progress this has made for large numbers of his supporters).

You seem to think that Mandela was personally responsible for post-Apartheid economic policies in South Africa. Firstly Mandela only served as President of South Africa for 5 out of the 19 years since the end of Apartheid. And secondly ANC policy is not decided by one man, unlike the British Conservative and Labour parties with their grotesque and blatant lack of democracy.

Furthermore many would argue that the single greatest failure of the post-Apartheid era has been the disastrous economic policies which have effectively blocked the redistribution of wealth away from the elite few.

Today South Africa is one of the most unequal societies in the world, resulting in the predictable levels of violence which inequality creates, and of course the police/state brutality which this in turn creates.

I don't hold Mandela personally responsible for this, but nor do I congratulate the ANC for their "business friendly" policies.

All of which incidentally is explained very eloquently by former ANC Minister for Intelligence Services and Central Committee member of the SACP, Ronnie Kasrils, in today's Guardian :

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/anc-faustian-pact-mandela-fatal-error ]How the ANC's Faustian pact sold out South Africa's poorest[/url]

what did he actually do?

Unless you have a queue of Spice Girls waiting to have their photo taken with you, I'd suggest Mandela has achieved more than someone so wrapped up in their forum identity that they call themselves 'ohnohesback'

On second thoughts, Bono has just been on the phone looking for cressers...maybe I was wrong.

As it appears that the Lion of Africa is leaving this life, there will no doubt be retrospectives regarding the struggle against apartheid. So I want to open this debate.

What did Nelson Mandela actually do?

So he spent 27 years in prison for activities that most reasonable people wouldn't consider criminal, but. Did he go on a hunger strike or a dirty protest as the IRA prisoners did? He might have been a figurehead, but it was the young South Africans boycotting the schools and demonstrating in the streets that did far more to galvanise world opinion against apartheid. Even then, it wasn't the actions of the ANC that lead to the changes in society, but a shift in the geopolitcal situation.

With the collapse of the communist block there was no longer any risk of a 'communist' ANC taking over South Africa, with the risk that South Africa would be used as a base for spreading isurrection throughout the continent, or that Russia would be able to use South African ports to interdict shipping passing around the Horn of Africa.

Wasn't it in the end the western corporations seeking to stabilise their access to South Africa's coal and minerals, who quietly spoke the word that some accomadation needed to be made?

So where was Mr Mandela?

Stupid people so entertaining

No I do not Ernie. But as I was investing in SA at the time of his release and afterwards, I am well aware of what scare stories were circulating. It's easy to present doomsday stories for SA, but it manages to overcome many of them. Of course, SA still faces serious problem including inequality, crime etc. Nevertheless, it could/wouldhave been a lot worse especially if the more radical policies had been introduced. I have also managed businesses in SA and tried to accommodate racial quotas to help address the problems. But this was neither easy nor a speedy process despite everyone's best intentions.

I think it is disingenuous to ignore the role Mandela has played since he officially left office.

I think it is disingenuous to ignore the role Mandela has played since he officially left office.

Who's ignoring the role Mandela has played since he officially left office ?

I think your claim that Mandela is personally responsible for post-Apartheid economic policies in SA is fanciful. That's the point I made.

Unless of course I completely misunderstood what you meant by this :

[i]"....his ability to dumbfound the naysayers by ignoring populist politics/economics (unlike many other emerging market leaders) and face the realities and challenge of the global economy"[/i]

Thought it was reasonable question by the op , I opened up this thread expecting to be educated as I must admit I don't really know either.

Instead there seems to be a load of people calling the op names but not actually able answer the question.

Wiki link for the equally unaware..

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela ]Nelson M[/url]

I opened up this thread expecting to be educated as I must admit I don't really know either.

You opened up a thread on here to be educated on what Nelson Mandela achieved in his lifetime ?

Really ?

Surely you have heard of Nelson Mandela beyond a bike forum ?

Heard of him, seen the pictures, knew students and councils like to name things after him. Knew he was in prison, knew he was a political activist.

Didn't know if he was in the right place at the right time or the genuine catalyst for positive change. Willing to listen to all opinions, even yours.

4th post on the thread:

[i]Why not use the internet to search for 'Nelson Mandela', then you can educate yourself in a much less confrontational way about him, and then make up your own mind regarding his activities[/i]?

Good one for detecting the simple, this thread...

That logic could be applied to all threads.

🙄

Yes you did.

More importantly. Was he a cyclist ?.

More importantly. Was he a cyclist ?

I think he might have been a roadie.

I think its a valid question from the OP. Like IanW above, I think his contribution is open for debate, as is the legacy of any politician, revolutionary, visionary etc in history.

That said there is a time and place for such a debate, and given the great man has not yet passed away I think the very first post from Brant sums it up nicely in thats its a fairly classless post.

Seriously IanW, I appreciate what you're saying, but you can't expect much beyond an exchange of opinions concerning Mandela. Giving an in-depth analysis of Mandela's life from his days as the "Black Pimpernel" through his trial, imprisonment, to eventually President of SA, is beyond the scope of a forum.

Although I will, to give as an example of the man, tell you of the speech he made from the dock at the Rivonia trial which lasted more than 4 hours (I bet they regretted asking him if he had anything to say) and concluded with the words :

[b]“During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.”[/b]

I'd say that anybody who could put together something that remotely resembled a democracy atthe tail end of the 20th century without being handed the country in a smouldering and charred mess by the West did a top notch job.

had they gone unpunished where would it have stopped?

this column from SA has a bit about what Nelson Mandela did and a bit about the effect his seemingly imminent demise might have: [url= http://www.zanews.co.za/columnists/2013/06/13/mandela-the-presence-of-absence ]ZA News[/url]

Was the beardy bloke in the troll photo Eugene Terreblanche? If so, nice double meaning.

No one seriously says that Mandela was a one-man liberation movement. He was chosen as the focal point for the campaign. Others like Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki et al could also have been a focal point, but Mandela had already been named the 'black pimpernel' and had some folk popularity and broader appeal.

On release from prison, he unified the ANC factions, prevented civil war and restricted capital flight. He sought to redistribute wealth in a gradual and work related way. He faced down inkatha who were being egged on by the third force. He became a statesman pretty much overnight, despite coaching when he was in Pollsmoor prison.

Not bad for a guy who had been locked up for nearly thirty years. the task he inherited upon release would have buckled 99 out of 100 people. The man is an example of principled politics whilst being adaptable.