So my wife and I have found a house that we like, but it seems to be significantly overpriced. We had a good chat with the agent last night, he sounded fairly exasperated with the seller, and probably told us more than he should. Essentially the house has been on for over a year with zero offers (even with the current crazy state of the market) – it has a steady trickle of viewings, but most people turn up and leave pretty quickly.
The main ‘problem’ with the house is that it’s on a 20% hill (half way up). That doesn’t bother me and the other half but most of the people buying in the area are older so that eliminates a lot of the seller’s market. The house itself is a fairly average (although pretty) Edwardian cottage, none of the bedrooms are massive (no ensuites), pretty tired looking inside, could do with a new bathroom and kitchen. The garden is quite large - however, as it’s on a very steep hill, it’s mainly a steep wooded area (which we love as we like nature areas and watching deer etc, but according to the agent, most people turn up and go ‘oh, it’s completely unusable’).
Anyway, the seller has apparently ignored the agent's valuation and originally put it on at a very punchy price even for the area – most of the other properties on the road are much bigger, more modern, and on level ground, so zoopla isn’t much help (one that was bigger, with more land, and more modern sold for 25k under the price it is on for not long ago). He has been trying to get the seller to reduce it for the past year, but the steady trickle of viewing I guess keeps the hope alive. The agent told us he thought it was at least 15-20% overpriced – we are very fortunate to be looking at fairly expensive properties, so it’s a large amount of money.
The seller is apparently reasonably keen to sell as the seller is a bit ill and wants to move (they have lived there 35 years). That said, can’t be that keen after a year of no offers!
He encouraged us to put in a realistic offer but did warn that whilst he’d do what he can, the vendor has a strong view of what it's worth. So I reckon we’re unlikely to get it, and whilst we don’t mind overpaying a bit (it’s meant to be our ‘forever home’) we’re not going to pay as much as the seller wants. I see the strategies as:
A) Put in an offer 20% below asking, on the basis of letting her negotiate us up to 15% below, so that the seller feels they have gained something.
B) Put in an offer of the top amount we’re prepared to offer (15% below asking).
C) B but with a time limit of say a week
To be honest, I suspect we’re going to be a sacrificial anode – we’ll put our offer in, the seller will decide it’s an ‘insult’ and reject it. Then it’ll sit on the market for another few months before the seller decides to reduce the price to something realistic. Any suggestions gratefully received.
Seller can decide what they want to sell it for.
That's it.
From what you have written this is a fight you won't win.
He has some reason he needs to sell for that money before he's sat on it for that long at that price....or conversely a reason he doesn't want to sell......
I’d go for A and be prepared to pay a bit more. It sounds like the agent is willing to work with you to get a deal done.
We had similar with our current ongoing house purchases. Albeit at a much lower price point.
We spoke to the agents and pointed out the negatives and said what we thought it was worth. Managed to get the current one for a price we’re happy with, bit more than we wanted to pay, but less than the seller wanted.
The steep hill might not bother you now but a some point your going to need to sell it . Walk away.
When the agent has said "at least 15-20% overpriced", I'd probably go 25% under on the off-chance, but assume they'd say no.
Offer what you’re prepared to pay, if it’s rejected then look for another house.
Not being unfair or chippy, but you are already emotionally committed to a house that is never likely to be sold if the seller won’t be realistic. Nothing you can do except make a sensible offer.
I suggest a lowball offer, option A but also put a time limit on the offer, one week is fair. Don't overpay, or rather don't overpay to the extent that it will give you buyer's remorse later.
I've never really liked putting time limits on offers, I sometimes mention that I've my eye on a couple of other properties.
A.. but expect that the house isn't actually for sale..for anything other than the price they're asking.
We low balled on our house as we were not really in a position to move but wanted to show we were serious and expected to negotiate up. The seller accepted with no negotiation so you never know.
You're both being deluded.
The seller thinks it's worth more than it is.
You seem to think it's the only house you can possibly ever live in. It isn't.
Paid £210k for my house that was on the market for £235k. I did a search on house prices and also saw a few on the market that were similar but cheaper that had sold recently. I summarised that and put in a lower offer and then moved up a bit to meet in the middle.
Although I did not accept a low ball offer on same house a few years ago as I decided I preferred living in it over what I could buy with low ball offer.
I guess you could be lucky. So good luck 🙂
I don't know the figures, but my old boss (a very good negotiator) always said you should drop two 'brackets'. For example, at the time I was in a house worth 70K, he said he would offer 50K and then a week after rejection he would offer 60K. The idea was to make the second offer seem quite generous. Not sure what 'brackets we are talking with your property, but you may be able to try a similar approach.
That said, I don't think you are going to get this without over paying.
Maybe a cheeky request to the estate agent to tell you the day before he arranges the next viewing so you can stick one last cheeky bid after an extended period of silence?
You seem to think it’s the only house you can possibly ever live in. It isn’t.
Not sure why you think that? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to live in the house, but I realistically think it's unlikely. I just wanted people's negotiating tips if they've been in a similar situation.
Thanks all for the thoughts. Probably on a hiding to nothing!
I would see if you can have a chat with the owner to see if you can find out what there reason for sale is and why they want a specific price. It might open up some other options that you could explore as part of an offer.
Eventually they will get their asking price as if it stays on the market long enough the market will move to them
Vendor has been there for 35 years so unless they've re-mortgaged or have otherwise borrowed using the house as collateral they should have significant equity built-in and IMO appear to be behaving irrationally.
Having said that they can instruct the estate agent as they see fit.
Suggestions:
- check sold prices of similar houses in the area; 'house prices on xxx road/street' will give details from rightmove and zoopla to give you real comparators; you say you've done that but widen your search area.
- google house price forecasts to see what property consultants (Jones Land LaSalle and others) are forecasting for this year by region; average c7.5% reduction I think, excluding London.
- submit low-ball offer with reasons; the two points above should form part of this; add in estimated cost to 'refresh' the house; bring in the dismal and worsening state of the economy and make clear this will have an impact on job market leading to downward pressure on house prices.
- give no indication to estate agent that your offer is negotiable; if you feel bullish, state it's take it or leave it
- you're offering certainty today against a likely fall in house prices
- if you can proceed immediately (cash buyer or mortgage agreed in principle) emphasise that; if not, saying nothing
- always try to find out why they're selling and, in this case, what is their reason for insisting on the price
Good luck - and make it clear, politely, that you're not in this to play games.
If they say no, you tried. Leave them to it - they could be stuck with a depreciating asset.
We had a similar problem when we bought our current house. We were chain-free and ready to move as quick as they wanted. The house was £30k more than anything else had sold for on the street and his reason was that he was moving close to London so needed the extra money. We were the only people to view it more than once and the only couple making an offer.
I made an offer £40k below asking price and repeated the offer on the same day every month. Every month it was rejected but each month it took a bit longer for the vendor to reply. After 6 months he came back and asked for another £5k on top of our offer. Deal done, we moved in 8 weeks.
It’s not a plan I would recommend but it worked for us.
Good plan gastro - we're quite keen to save ourselves 15k of stamp duty tho!
Offer what it is worth to you. Not what the seller wants nor what the agent thinks it is worth. If you can’t get to within that price move on.
Vendor sounds like a knob to me.
He doesn’t get to decide what it’s worth - it worth what someone is willing to offer.
He decides whether to accept that offer or not.
I’d put in your offer. Agent is legally bound to pass it on to the vendor in writing.
Agent will no doubt try and persuade the vendor to consider / accept the offer (as they need turnover, not asking prices to make money)
Sounds negative but i wouldn't even bother and id move on. Market is fast around us at the moment and any house that came on last year and is now still on is still on for a reason and that's mostly stubborn pricing
Careful of people who aren't that fussed about selling. They tend to be the ones who will lead you on for months and ending up pulling out at the last moment (costing you 1000's). From experience.
He doesn’t get to decide what it’s worth – it worth what someone is willing to offer.
The seller does determine what it is worth to them, and you determine what it is worth to you. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they need to sell so their value is the one that counts.
Offer what you think it's worth, which is A) in your scenario. Anything else is whataboutery.
If he counters, consider B). If he rejects it outright, walk away thankful in the knowledge that you're not having to deal with a nob. Because
The seller thinks it’s worth more than it is.
You seem to think it’s the only house you can possibly ever live in. It isn’t.
There will always be other houses.
For comparison,
I sold my house recently. It sold in a fortnight, it had 14 viewings and I cancelled the last two cos it'd been sold. The sale then fell through due to circumstances outside the buyer's control and was relisted. It sold again inside of a week for more money than it went for the first time.
A property on the market for a year is into "look mate..." territory.
[i]Maybe a cheeky request to the estate agent to tell you the day before he arranges the next viewing so you can stick one last cheeky bid[/i]
This is a negotiation process and the agent is working for the seller. They'll go straight to the seller and say you've offered X amount but recommend they reject it as you are prepared to pay more!!!
The agent is the enemy, never reveal your cards!
It will works it’s way to the market value; inevitable.
Vendor sounds like a knob to me.
He doesn’t get to decide what it’s worth – it worth what someone is willing to offer.
He decides whether to accept that offer or not.
I disagree. The owner does get to decide what it's worth. He, and no-one else, determines the value of the house on the open market. If it's worth more to him than an offer, then he clearly values it above that and will keep it. Does not make the owner a knob.Perhaps they need to sell above market price to move where they want, but below that there's no point.
We had this with a house. We put an offer in based on our own survey (this is in Scotland) which was a fair bit less than what the retired couple wanted.
They took great offence to this and refused to negotiate. A year later they accepted an offer from someone else that was less than what we had offered.
Pissed us off but not sure we could have done much differently. Other than totally lie to the couple and praise their shit choice in decor and naff kitchen knowing full well we would make wholesale changes once we move in. We weren't interested in paying a premium for things that we would then replace.
Mind you, re-reading your OP, consider that absolutely nothing the agent has told you is true. So disregard all that, offer less than what you think it's worth, then start negotiating. So A, but based on your valuation, not his. Definitely not B, as you have nowhere to go after that.
An estate agent telling you that the vendor is taking the piss is hardly likely to be a hostile actor.
I disagree. The owner does get to decide what it’s worth. He, and no-one else, determines the value of the house on the open market. If it’s worth more to him than an offer, then he clearly values it above that and will keep it. Does not make the owner a knob.Perhaps they need to sell above market price to move where they want, but below that there’s no point.
Who’s buying the house? The vendor or the buyer?
In the same way “money only has value when exchanged for goods or services”, a house’s value can only be defined by exchanging it for money (ergo buyers determine the house’s value).
The vendor may decide he’s not prepared to sell the house at the price it’s worth in the current market (I.e the price he’s being offered) but that doesn’t meant it’s “worth” more in the market.
My house might be worth £500k to me, that doesn’t mean I’m going to get a buyer for it at that price.
“The market” determine house prices, anything else is just estate agent marketing and vendors inflated idea of ‘value’.
that would only be true if the buyer could force the vendor to sell . Perhaps he doesn't want to sell but family want him to sell so to appease them it's on for a high price no one would pay...
Buyer decides nothing they can only tender an offer to buy
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/people-that-have-to-give-you-more-info-than-needed/
Just make an offer of what you think it's worth then walk away if the seller doesn't accept it.
Go with a)
This is a negotiation process and the agent is working for the seller. They’ll go straight to the seller and say you’ve offered X amount but recommend they reject it as you are prepared to pay more!!!
The agent is the enemy, never reveal your cards!
Technically but at the same time he's on what, 2% commission. Would he rather keep showing people round the place and protracted negotiations, when his commission on the bit extra is worth a couple of hundred? Or just convince the seller this is as good as she'll get and be heading down to Next for a new suit with his commission in no time at all.
When we were looking for a house there was one the street we are now we didn't look at as it was overpriced. The people who bought it paid about 40k less - below what we paid for ours though it did need more work - so it can happen.
Go with a. an offer you can improve slightly can make both parties feel like they are winning but be prepared to walk away.
that would only be true if the buyer could force the vendor to sell
Of course only the vendor decides whether to sell.
My point is only a buyer can determine the value of a house by offering what they’re prepared to pay.
The vendor doesn’t have to except this offer - but this doesn’t mean the house has a higher value.
I’m sitting on some shares at a significant loss due to covid. If I choose not to sell them at the current market Price it doesn’t mean they’re worth more. It simply means I’m not prepared to sell them at the current price.
Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
Think trail rat has it - whoever is dealing with the agent doesn’t want to move (possibly even if they get a stupid offer) - rest of the family may want to move so it’s family politics but whatever that’s the position - in this scenario you aren’t getting it either way - sorry - so I’d give your non-negotiable best offer and say to the agent i’ll leave this final offer here and it’s valid until i find another house which i’m going to actively look into, if their position has changed they’ll call you, if not you know to crack on elsewhere
The only ultimate arbiter of value is where a buyer and seller agree to trade. “What it’s worth to them” is unknowable and meaningless until the trade is reached.
As for the house, go with A, but don’t be too optimistic about it working if the gap between what you will currently pay and what they will currently accept is too big.
The agent is the enemy, never reveal your cards!
I disagree - tell the agent the truth and make it clear why that is the offer so they can report back. I did just that when we bought - the house was on at a high price, the agent told us the price he knew would secure it, we offered what we believed it was worth due to its condition. We ended up getting it for what we were prepared to pay as it was fair and everyone knew it. I would have walked if they held out for anything close to their initial price.
Sometimes you need to walk away,
No point paying overpriced to someone who even then may not sell, to be in a house that clearly has put off a large audience..
If you meet people who are unrealistic then it’s very difficult to deal, my own experience was buying a freshly done up house which was £50k 25% premium on what they’d paid 12 months earlier it was clear they’d done some good work but it didn’t justify the premium.
Another house I liked but we knew it’d never go through , same couple live there 3 years later
Another house we liked circa £250k, the seller was only willing to sell if they could buy a specific £1.5m house for circa £1.2m, I asked him if he had the money to buy it and he said no they’d use the profit on this house to secure the mortgage, again his occupation didn’t match with his expectations..
Avoid timewasters
When we bought ours we thought it was overpriced so offered 30% below asking. We settled on 15% below asking.
The way you make it sound i'd be more inclined to put some letters round the area to see if anyone is selling in the near future, the house you're after sounds like a dead duck, but someone close by might be thinking about it, a few printed off letters hand delivered could be a better option in the long run.
Sometimes you need to walk away,
No point paying overpriced to someone who even then may not sell, to be in a house that clearly has put off a large audience..
This.
The key part of any negotiation is being willing to walk away...
You're trying to second guess the psychology of the vendor, which is not really your role in all of this. you have some money, they have a property for sale and if an agreement can be reached an exchange will be made...
I'd go for option 'A' make the offer you'd prefer to pay, let the estate agent use it to work on the vendor, they might come back with a counter offer or a flat rejection, if you feel like it's worthwhile punt in that extra 5%.
But always be prepared to walk...
Can you find somebody to make an offer even lower than your proposed low offer?
never trust a single word that comes out of an estate agent’s mouth, they are working for the seller, generally on a commission basis so they want to get the maximum price they can and will spin all kinds of lies to achieve this. Offer what you think it’s worth, not what you think might please the seller
I'm sure that's the case sometimes but I'm not sure it's always true
My best friend is an agent at Foxtons (admittedly that's perhaps a bit niche - big money London) but he tells me that a big part of his job is managing buyer expectations and getting them to be a bit more realistic with what they can afford.
Yes it's in agents' interest to get a good commission, but it's also very much in their interest for turnover to happen. They're an agent for the buyer, as well as the seller. The buyer has all the money, remember.
Yes it’s in agents’ interest to get a good commission, but it’s also very much in their interest for turnover to happen.
Definitely this. The agent wants a deal to happen so they get their x% commission.
Assemble two sets of friends & get them to both view the house a week or so apart. Get the first to make an offer at say 35% below asking price, the second at -30%, then you offer -25%...
Then sit and wait.
Of course only the vendor decides whether to sell.
My point is only a buyer can determine the value of a house by offering what they’re prepared to pay.
The vendor doesn’t have to except this offer – but this doesn’t mean the house has a higher value.
Exactly this. Go look at ebay.
never trust a single word that comes out of an estate agent’s mouth, they are working for the seller, generally on a commission basis
I'm currently selling my house. Well, sold, STC. The estate agent is on a flat fee, as was every other EA quote I had. It's in their interests to get rid of it, for ten quid if needs be, there is no commission to be had.
I'd walk away, although option A seems a reasonable plan the seller you're describing is so far out of touch with reality it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up messing you about later even if they accepted a 15% below asking price offer now as they'll resent that offer.
Ask someone else to be your sacrificial anode and get them to go a bit under - then when you offer a bit more a week or so later the vendor feels like they have gained?
When we bought ours we thought it was overpriced so offered 30% below asking. We settled on 15% below asking.
Ours was similar but we offered around 12% below the asking price (after the agent had suggested an offer of around 2% below asking would secure it). We eventually agreed on 10% below asking. And TBF I was right as the money we have spent bringing the property up to date has been around the amount we negotiated off the price.
we moved recently. Knowing that we had a motivated seller who we were sure wouldn't pull out for no reason or mess us about was the only part of the whole ordeal that wasn't a mega stress-fest!!I’d walk away, although option A seems a reasonable plan the seller you’re describing is so far out of touch with reality it wouldn’t surprise me if they ended up messing you about
the seller you’re describing is so far out of touch with reality it wouldn’t surprise me if they ended up messing you about
This.
We had a nightmare buying this house, including the lady selling it turning up on our old house doorstep and having rant at my wife...
There were lies to the estate agent, lies to the vendor of the new house up the chain, lies to me (the purchaser), lies to her solicitor. All couched in the fact that she thought the house was worth 10% / £20k more than it was and everyone should give her that money.
There were two houses in the chain, this one and a brand new build house half a mile away. Thankfully we had a housing developer who knew his nutcases from good customers and effectively we and the housing developer did a naughty (but legal) deal to secure this house through a cheeky trade in and cash gift...
To give you an idea of the nutter, 6 months after we moved in she turned up on our doorstep with her cat, box, feeding tray etc to say that we were to look after the cat from now on, as it kept roaming back to us anyway and was damaging the new furniture in her new house...
I wouldn't do it again, any sign of a box of frogs from the vendor and I am out.
Poor cat! What happened (to the cat?)?
Poor frogs! What happened (to the frogs?)?
We found a house three years ago up for offers over £520k, it wasnt worth anywhere near that for very good reasons but the EA was friends with children of the woman who lived there. We viewed it several times with builders and offered what we thought it was worth and walked away when the offer was rejected.
Couple of months later it dropped to offers off £500k, then offers over £480k. It never sold in the end. Even at £480k it was over priced by 10% compared to similar properties. It looked and smelt like it hadn't been cleaned for years, proper knockout smell of cigarettes through out the house. It needed a new kitchen and bathrooms, carpets throughout, apparently replastering probably would have been the best way to get rid of the smell properly. The gardens were a mess too.
Shame as it could have been a cracking home.
What happened (to the cat?)?
It was sent away with the box of frogs owner. Noticeably it ceased arriving randomly at our house a few months later.
In these situations I would also think very carefully about the house. Although you are happy with it and its location it appears clear that the majority don't. Which means it will bite you when you come to sell it (if you ever do). If you love it enough, as others have said, then decide what yo are prepared to pay for it and what you think it is worth. And if the seller doesn't want to accept then walk away and forget all about it. If the offer is rejected and you spend a lot of time thinking about it and what it might be, you are more likely to make an emotional decision and pay more than you should for it. And then regret it years later when you struggle to sell it. Possibly.
I had to serve a trespass notice on the occupier of a house we bought when she refused to leave after exchanging and we had the keys. Arrived with movers to find her effectively staging a sit in. She wasn't listening to called the Police who removed her eventually. Locksmith was waiting and instantly changed every single lock in the place ! Madness.
Did you resolves this in the end.
We've found ourselves in the same boat. Their house had been on the market since March, barely any viewings due to the work that needs doing and the colossal garden which is overgrown is immediately putting people off. They've had one sale fall through for almost asking price but are determined they can get it again. No offers since it fell through.
We offered 35k less than asking as our first. Obviously declined by them, it's a probate sale with one vendor being stubborn and wanting asking price and the other vendor just wanting rid.
The Estate agent is trying to tell them it's not worth what they are asking as other properties have come on in the same area at a good price and been sold immediately but they just wont listen.
We'll put in another bid tomorrow or after the weekend I think.
Yes we did in the end. We put in a low bid (15% below the current asking, which was 80% of what it was on originally). This predictably got rejected, but gave the agent the opportunity to have a another 'be realistic' chat with the seller to reduce the price by another 25k. This was closer to the actual value. We then put in another offer at 95% of the revised asking. This was rejected but another party got involved at this point they'd put in an offer at 94% of asking, we got told best and final. We went up 5k, turns out the other party also came in at the exact same price. The agent then investigated our chains, ours was one shorter so we got the property.
At this point the wife and I realised that this wasn't the property for us afterall (during all of this messing around, we'd seen another property (see my thread on the underpinned house that wasn't underpinned afterall)). We took the weekend to think it over but withdrew the bid on Monday (whilst feeling like dickheads, but at least we minimised the messing around). The other party was then offered it for the same price, and they agreed. So all is well. The property sold for 82% the (original) original asking price (the property was expensive, so this was a bit over 100k cheaper).
Good luck.
Ahh glad you found something you want. Thanks, I think we'll need it. This is the only house we've seen that the Mrs is happy with the garden, just short of 100m long. All the locals we met today think the vendors are being silly, as does the estate agent, just need them to have a good hard think about it and be realistic about a sale in the current time.
it might help manage their expectations if someone else came round to view the house and offered even less for it a few days ahead of your revised offer? I'm not sure if you know anyone else who might be interested in a similar house though..
@5lab - I dont know anyone like that no. The estate agents are also only letting people view the house who have sold their property and shown their Mortgage in Principle, apparnetly this gets rid of some time wasters and people who just like looking at houses on the weekend.
that's a shame. Maybe you forgot about one friend who is moving from rental accommodation so has no-where to sell, and got an online agreement in principle somewhere like here -> https://www.barclays.co.uk/mortgages/agreement-in-principle/
it’s a probate sale with one vendor being stubborn
Friends have just got new neighbours 4 years after the owner died and 3.5 years after their daughter put it on the market! The asking price was well in excess of what better houses in the street sold for and the seller never budged on price until lockdown.
5lab - what you are suggesting sounds a bit like fraud? If you have to lie to people's faces it as at the very least dishonest and unethical, and karma will bite you one day.
I agree hels.
No need for any fruad, seems the sister had words and came back with a decent counter offer. We accpeted and moving forward now 🙂