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Asking all the way home from hospital where is Buddy, can’t wait to see him.
We left dog in other room until things settled. Son and dog had a cuddle. Son not bothered at all!
That's brilliant. You've clearly got a lovely dog there and a very grown up, clued up son.
Even more clued up now.
I'm normally one for saying that 'the dog has to go'. But if the situation was as you describe it, it sounds like there is scope for thinking before doing anything.
I like what @convert said:
After long angst about if he should be put down they decided to keep him. Happy to report many more happy years as a family passed with zero incidents before the dog died at a venerable age.
Very difficult situation, but now the dust has settled a bit it seems like the kid knows he was pushing the dog too far, kids can be right little dicks.
if a dog was aggressive around kids, it would be gone.
Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far. Theres a big difference between an un-trained/agressive animal, and one thats been harrased and lashed out in the only way it can.
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
Sorry to hear this..
It is none of my bussines etc.
The dog has to go ... sorry.
Next time it could be worse.
Sorry but.
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
No point worrying about something that's out of your control. I think the OP and family have much food for thought already.
Ignoring the possibility doesn’t make it go away.
OP, it only seems to be referenced lightly in NICE (mainly against other risk factors).
https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/bites-human-animal/management/managing-a-cat-or-dog-bite/
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
Funnily enough I was just talking to a mate about this thread, his sisters kid got bitten by the family dog (kid being a dick and not knowing boundaries, sounds like the same scenario).
The hospital called social services apparently, as they have duty of care etc. And social services came to vist to check out the situation. All ended up well, as the parents knew exactly what happened but did have to do some explaining that the kid was basically tormenting the dog to breaking point.
Wife is going to talk to son when alone later. Just chatting to wife over a cuppa now, she said he was instantly apologising profusely when it happened. I didn’t know this until now. So he was obviously doing something bad to the dog, and it just whipped around and clocked him.
Interesting - reminds me of me, I remember my parents talking very gravely of having ours put down, I equally remember saying they shouldn't, that it wasn't his fault. With the benefit of hindsight, they must have known I'd been bad, but the potential trauma of having Buster put down made me much more considerate around him, and we got along great as a result. Again, no hasty decisions needed.
Ignoring the possibility doesn’t make it go away.
Oh, great - worry about it all you like, then, and see how much difference that makes.
You might be a worrier, I’m a planner.
@Mattyfez, Yes I think they class it as ‘safeguarding’. Friend works in Children’s A&E and they have a duty of care to flag all sorts (often way over and above what’s sensible!).
Keep the dog! Your kid needs to be taught boundaries. Dogs, like us, have bad days and more than likely his 'cup had runneth over'.
I haven't read all the posts, so apologies if this has been mentioned already. Dogs seldom bite without sending out a lot of warning signals first. The trouble is we don't speak their language very well, so often don't pick up on them. Signs that a dog is uncomfortable with a situation and that it may escalate if the stressor isn't removed include: looking away; yawning; licking their "lips"; looking sideways and showing the whites of their eyes. A growl may be the final warning but doesn't always happen. A trainer and animal behaviourist told me "never try to stop a dog growling, it's like taking the batteries out of a smoke detector".
This is a great link to explain some of this.
reminds me of when my brother came to visit with his daughters with their bikes in the boot (stick with me!). He hadn't realised his wife had taken the helmets out of the boot for a spin with the scooters the day before.
The girls were excited about riding, we were exploring a new area, adults on foot, girls with bikes. We ended up walking down a trail that was steep and scrabbly. Girls were told to get off their bikes as soon as it got non-flat.
The headstrong one (headstrong isn't the half of it!) walked quicker to get ahead and out of "control" distance, got back on her bike and rode down the steepest bit at the bottom. To be fair to her, she rode out the rooty steps, but lost the front wheel in the sand at the bottom.
I started running after her as soon as saw her get on the bike. I found her with her hair tangled in the rear derailleur and a decent cut in her scalp. My bro felt terrible for heading out with helmets, his wife felt terrible for seeing them off without twigging they had bikes in the car but no helmets, I felt terrible about the route choice.
But the first thing Headstrong Niece said to me when I found her was "That was a bad decision!"
She was old enough to know better, she knew what she'd been told to do/ told not to do, and why, and that she'd made her own decision to ignore the instruction.
Sounds like this might be a similar situation (I know it's not identical), and you might have to let your son steer you to a certain extent about how much he knew he was pissing the dog off.
Sounds like he was trying to find out how hard he could push Buddy before bad things happened, and he'd have found out sooner or later, however much you'd have told him not to.
@dereknova Oh,for sure, It's important that the situtaion is looked at, I wasn't meaning to sound like I'm complaining, there are obviosuly bad dog owners with untrained dogs or dogs that are unsuitable for thier lifestyle etc. and that can obviously be a problem.
You might be a worrier, I’m a planner.
Worrier? Not me - either someone gets in touch or they don't, if they do then we can start looking at options. Until then - what are you planning?
Well, if they do get in touch it would help to be able to demonstrate:
- You know it’s a serious incident and as such:
- This is how you have researched making changes in environment / behaviour. This BMA paper talks to emotional impact for example ( https://bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/4/1/e000726)
- This is what you have put in place
Then SS see someone who has given it serious consideration rather than someone waiting to be contacted.
The fact you have planned makes you look far more aware of the circumstances.
Glad to hear your son is okay OP. I’d be interested in knowing exactly what the little blighter was doing to end up with his whole head in the dogs mouth. I’d agree with others stating dogs rarely bite without provocation.
I had a lovely lab, Leo, the best friend I’ve ever had. He once bit me without any warning and it was entirely my fault. I was brushing him with a short, metal brush and accidentally brushed his arse! Turned and bit with extraordinary speed. Fastest the big lump has ever moved.
The posts regarding dogs being pack animals are up for debate but that’s for another thread. In my experience they aren’t and the whole ‘Wolf in your living room’ and being alpha are laughable. The majority of modern domestic dogs are as far removed from the wild wolf as your neighbours fat house cat is from a Tiger
The problem is with your child, not the dog. How would you be with relentless hassle and provocation?
You may call it a bite, but I bet it was a warning nip for the dogs perspective.
It does sound like hes had to learn the hard way. He might leave the dog alone now.
The posts regarding dogs being pack animals are up for debate but that’s for another thread. In my experience they aren’t and the whole ‘Wolf in your living room’ and being alpha are laughable. The majority of modern domestic dogs are as far removed from the wild wolf as your neighbours fat house cat is from a Tiger
Slight thread de-rail, but I saw a documentary recently about wolf packs, and contary to popular belief, thier social structure is much more cooperative than an alpha top-down hierarchy.
Wish I could remember the name of it.
Sorry to derail further, but in line with the above - Most of what was historically documented of pack behaviour was from captive animals that form a screwed up version of a pack more akin to a prison gang. In nature they are family units, not a bunch of randoms thrown together. Dogs are in neither of these categories.
The fact you have planned makes you look far more aware of the circumstances.
Great - let's hope the OP gets on top of all that before the knock on the door. Will that be tonight, do you think?
Our friends/godson tormented the family Jack Russel - in its face screaming at it, dog bit him needing stitches. Dog has been fine before and since and it's a cantankerous JR.
We have a big 'wolf type dog' - young niece and nephew visited from Oz last year. Constant chats with my brother prior about the dog needing his own space/not a toy etc and to drum it into the kids.
There were a few times in the 3weeks when Bert took himself off to 'his space' and the kids were told to leave him.
Dogs are pretty complex things that need understanding especially when children are added to the mix.
Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far.
Define 'pushed too far' because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he 'pushed the dog too far' as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn't pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it, as it would appear many here have suggested by their rhetoric.
There has been about 20 children killed by the dog in the last 20 years, and far more adults. THAT is the worst that can happen. That is the risk, and while the vast majority of fatalities were of the pit bull type, not all.
Those are the fatalities, of (hospitalized) attacks the number is well over 2000. Total reported is close to 6000.
Experts blame – most not involving banned breeds – children being allowed to treat stressed dogs like cuddly teddy bears.
Which is apparently what he was doing when he got home. There is the trigger,according to the experts anyway, and a cuddle today might not end with the result of a cuddle tomorrow.
"Too far" for me was being right in his face, blowing up his nose. 🙁
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
With all due respect I think you’re way wide of the mark and simply speculating. The OP hasn’t stated what his son was doing to provoke the dog. Why does it imply violent behaviour? Pondo is probably closer to the truth. One of our dogs but my brother because he kept pulling her tail.
I can speculate too and think the kid was probably teasing the dog in some way. Remember dogs aren’t people and have different stress factors. You’re applying your human rationale to a dog. It doesn’t work like that.
Please drop the pack hierarchy bollocks too. I’ll happily debate it with you in a fresh thread, but this isn’t the place for it.
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far
I don't think the OP has conveyed any sense that the boy was giving the dog a cuddle when it turned.
"f you can’t tell the difference between a stressed animal that is being provoked and one that is genuinely aggressive it is only in the best interests of the dog to rehome it. Try a Labradoodle Rescue organisation – they will have a list of prospective owners."
+1,
My daughter was bitten by our young Jack Russell when she was 6, not badly though. She was surprised and shocked.
"what were you doing?" I asked
"Nothing".
Whatever it was she never did it again...
Is this a family dog or the OP’s dog?
Long walks together, best buddy etc.
Do the children feed the dog and walk it?
Dogs will squabble for pack pecking order.
All our dogs from rescue to puppies have been left in no uncertain terms as to where they belong in the pecking order and have I believe felt secure because of this. This may sound harsh but if you invite dogs on the sofa and on the bed you are raising their pack status and in my opinion it’s just confusing the dog. If the dog is to be kept I think it’s status needs a bit of readjustment.
Re. Police/social services visit. Yes I would expect some follow up. Would be more shocking if nothing at all happened.
I'm making arrangements to speak with a dog behaviourist. Just wanted to see what they thought of him/the situation/family situation.
But I am far from settled in my mind
@inbred456 oh definitely a family dog. Yes I'm very close to him, but Buddy is without doubt a family dog. We all do walks together, and are all often sat together in the evet. The long walks are just me and him because the rest of the family don't have the legs for the long gallops! I find a long solo walk very therapeutic, especially in current times.
I don’t think the OP has conveyed any sense that the boy was giving the dog a cuddle when it turned.
Nope, nothing I saw either. Just parroting experts and what is a trigger for dogs attacking kids.
My family are dog owners. On black lab #2 now, the earlier dog 'Jet'(original for a black lab lol ) was a huge big lump of a thing, and my nephews growing up certainly cuddled him. So lets just agree its a possibility yeah. Again, im only like everyone else offering my opinion. Not wishing to debate individual points.
Personally I feel small children who are prone to cuddling the family dog, and large dogs dont mix. Fine with my sister, fine will millions of others but thats how I feel about it, given the statistics. Statistics, they come from somewhere don't they, and each carries a story.
I think the OP was very very lucky he still has a son, and my feelings on why its being debated are as Funk's post, speculation or debate for another thread.
Nothing much to add, but whatever decision - try not to "blame" anyone.
Your kid might have been annoying the dog. But thats what kids do. Kids are learning boundaries. Its not being "naughty". Your child is very young, and learning.
Same with the dog, its attacked (not nipped or any other euphemism) your son. He's only acting as a dog might. And thats not a warning, or a gentle closing of teeth, that's a proper bite.
Neither are at "fault" really. But if you have lost trust in the animal, regardless of being not the dogs fault, you'll never fully trust the animal again.
Its very sad, regrettable, but its not "punishing" or finding fault with either party, its just a fact the dog probably needs a different home where it will be happier and less stressed, one without small kids.
If the child loves the dog, and it's taken away, it might be the lesson the child needs to "listen to Daddy" and "look after things or you lose them" Both may come out of the experience happier, and or better educated for the experience.
But sorry for the position your in.
I’m sad to be reading this thread and can really feel for you OP. Just wanted to add that our family dog, a bearded Collie recently bit me on the face, not badly but enough to draw blood. Like you, this dog has been by my side since a puppy. I walk him, feed him and when younger was my faithful trail dog.
He had never done anything like this before and is actually quite bomb proof with kids, my two have grown up with him and when toddling our niece used to grab his beard!
He was on the floor in front of the fire and I just got down for a cuddle/wrestle and he went for me. It turns out that he has a bit of arthritis now and I must have caught him in the wrong place, so probably my fault. We as a family now know to be careful and there is no way he’s going anywhere. Your son will have learned a good lesson but will still hold a lot of love for the dog.
@kid.a sounds like your son was being a prat, I know this because the family dog bit me when I was being a prat, and a lot older and should have been wiser than your son, probably 12. Anyway I knew I'd had my jabs recently so patched up my foot and kept schtum as the dog was lovely and I didn't want my parents to know.
Best decision ever the dog was a huge part of my life growing up and I still miss her twenty years after she passed away.
My kids get a bollocking when caught messing with our dog and I keep telling them it'll be them not the dog that goes if he bites in retaliation 🙂
Feel for you. Your son sounds like a lesson may have been learned today.
Hopefully the stress of today will subside and you'll get back to where you were before today's incident sooner rather than later.
I remember being bitten on the face by our Weimaraner when I was 3 or 4. She was a nice steady soul and not the normal excitable type. I don't blame her though as I'd been trying to ride her like a horse whist she was resting in her bed. Sometimes people are dicks.
"Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far.
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it, as it would appear many here have suggested by their rhetoric.
There has been about 20 children killed by the dog in the last 20 years, and far more adults. THAT is the worst that can happen. That is the risk, and while the vast majority of fatalities were of the pit bull type, not all.
Those are the fatalities, of (hospitalized) attacks the number is well over 2000. Total reported is close to 6000.
Experts blame – most not involving banned breeds – children being allowed to treat stressed dogs like cuddly teddy bears.
Which is apparently what he was doing when he got home. There is the trigger,according to the experts anyway, and a cuddle today might not end with the result of a cuddle tomorrow."
You're a bundle of fun!
When did you last get a cuddle?
Your family have dogs, but do you? Do you have kids? Do you understand either?
A similar story from when I was a young kid (40+ years ago) was that my beloved Cebie (Heinz57) wasn't home when mum brought me back from nursery. My folks told me Cebie had gone to live on a friend's farm my dad knew through work - I was briefly upset but soon moved on with playing with my toys etc. Fast forward 35 - 40years and it popped in my head that the story didn't stack up so I brought up the subject.
Turns out Cebie had jumped out of the moving car window and skidded down the road. Shortly after he escaped and bounded upto the elderly gentleman next door and knocked him over. He was dragged off to the vets and put down.
Fast forward to having our own dog and I was more gutted when they told me what had actually happened that they hadn't put more time and effort into training the dog and had simply killed it instead.
There's bites and there's bites. My grandmother's dog could nip you if you got in its face - I remember it giving her a bleeding lip when she blew in its face to make it drop something. And one or two of our rescue cats have tried it on once or twice before they learnt their place.
But assuming the hospital treatment was really warranted and not just a bit of particularly bad luck (edit - just seen in the follow up that this is certainly the case), it does sound like the dog doesn't know its boundaries. Not blaming anyone, but it should be snapping at an annoying kid, not hospitalising them. I can understand fully why you might be reluctant to keep it.
This happened to us when my kids were small and more recently with my brother-in-law. Both times the dogs in question were very loving.
With us I saw one of my boys (about 3 years old) practically jump on the dog when she was asleep and the dog snapped and caught him on the nose. Absolutely no way to blame the dog. Never had another incident (she lived until she was 17 so about 12 years later).
My nephew had a bite that also needed hospital treatment but no-one was in the room when it happened. When everything calmed down in the house before they went to hospital he asked if he could apologise to the dog and it turns out he had tried to sit on her when she was asleep.
Getting rid of the dog is not always the correct course of action.
OP, not sure if I should really say this, seems insensitive, but if you finally determine that the dog is moving out we’d gladly give him a home. Hope once the dust has settled you find a way of keeping him.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it
Have you got a spycam in the OPs house? If the OP doesn't know what happened, how can you possibly have any idea?
There is a lot of certainty posted in this thread where even the OP doesn’t know what happened.
The only real known is that the dog hurt someone, badly. When it happened my my dog, I couldn’t live with the risk that someone else might get hurt, and I wasn’t prepared to pass it that risk on to someone else so I made the hardest call and had him put down. Still miss him but I’d don’t regret the decision.
We have a 4 yr old collie/lab cross. He is a wonderful friendly dog, all the family play, walk and totally love him. However he is sensitive to small children that want to get too close and or "cuddle him"
He first tries to move away, or leave the room. If he gets pinned into a corner then he gently rumbles a growl and eventually if they dont leave him alone he will show a little more "im unhappy" behavior.
If they still dont leave him im sure eventually he would nip or give a little bite to make his point.
He cant really do much else as his paws dont work like hands.
Because of this going against his normal loveliness we asked a dog behaviourist to come and examine him, her words were pretty much what do you expect him to do?
We just make sure to watch when little kids are around him and make sure he can get his own space if he wants to.
And if he does nip an adult that gets too close and ignores his warnings then tough shit!