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There's a lot of chat (rightly) about how much the batting relies on Root, but he's only 30. When Anderson and Broad are gone? Ollie Robinson is another county trundler who looks good on sporty english wickets, but will get murdered in Aus or SA. See also Craig Overton...
It's a shit state of affairs if England don't make serious attempt at this chase. It is a very enticing declaration and they have a chance to snatch a win from a game where they have been second best most of the time. 🤷♂️
No intent at all from England. Less than 2 an over, in a game that doesn't even count towards the Test championship.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57321098
"England v New Zealand: Joe Root wants home side to entertain Lord's crowd"
pile of bollocks.
TMS said that NZ might have set the target because there's a chance they'll need to defend / bowl at 250-300 against India in a couple of weeks time. England equally might need to chase 250 on a last day to win a game or series...... what are we learning from this, and are the crowd being entertained?
Total yawnfest. Another example of England’s lack of ability to bat to suit the situation. This was an opportunity to have a knock and build confidence. Admire NZ attitude, wish we had some of that too
Rumours abound the ECB are trying to locate cagoule man to try to provide some semblance of last day entertainment
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/cricket/57377362
No way were England going to even attempt going for the win. They had their arses handed to them in India and without Stokes and Buttler they’re 1) low of batting confidence, and 2) devoid of natural attacking talent.
Had the rain not appeared yesterday we’d probably be seeing a markedly different fifth day.
This performance just reaffirms their lack of confidence, having a go by keeping the scorecard turning taking singles and shots when they come surely would have helped them even if they’d lost they would have remembered the middle ground between blocking and slogging.
the middle ground between blocking and slogging
Just by looking 'busy' they could have dragged the fielders around and built a bit of momentum without really even trying.
Moral victory to NZ, they’ve kept going. England would have liked to come off, to have given up. Next game is lost already.
Right decision to suspend him pending the investigation.
Right decision to suspend him pending the investigation.
2nd best decision for me. They (the ECB) would have gained a lot of respect if they had sent him home after day 1 and if they had lost so be it. Not sure if you could have had a replacement fielder in those circumstances.
I'm in two minds about him seemingly carrying on for the last 4 days regardless in terms of the performance he was able to produce and his general 'unbowed' attitude. You could call it professional. Or you could call it not bothered. Does a unapologetic racist/sexist actually care about being found out? Apart from the reading of a prepared statement, that's how he came across to me.
It was a terribly dull and uninspiring response from England but had they gone down in a blaze of glory and failed they would have been pilloried for that also. It does seem a shame when NZ made a very sporting declaration and England didn't respond in kind.
I’m in two minds about him seemingly carrying on regardless in terms of the performance he was able to produce and his general ‘unbowed’ attitude.
Eh?
After play, he apologised, saying he was "embarrassed" and "ashamed".
"I am sorry, and I have certainly learned my lesson today,"
Unbowed?
Are you suggesting he should have played badly to show how sorry he was? The lad had his England debut ruined because of some puerile stuff he posted on twitter when he was 18, I feel for him. I'm glad twitter wasn't around when I was 18.
He's still a trundler, though.
Roland Jones
Overton
Etc
He'll get tw*tted into the middle of next week in Aus/SA etc.
Unbowed?
I'd say so. He read a prepared statement very well. But that was it.
Are you suggesting he should have played badly to show how sorry he was?
The ECB should have given him the mother of all roastings behind the scenes (when not kicking themselves in the nuts repeatedly for not doing their due diligence) and told him he was only still on the field for the good of the team.
But in his situation I'd have been doing a pre professional era rugby try style celebration (i.e. none) and keeping my head down. Not this
some puerile stuff he posted on twitter when he was 18, I feel for him. I’m glad twitter wasn’t around when I was 18.
Yes and no. I spend my days working with 17&18 year olds. Only the wronguns post the shit he did.
But in his situation I’d have been doing a pre professional era rugby try style celebration and keeping my head down. Not this
He's just got out a double centurion, on his test debut, and you expect him to sheepishly nod and shake hands with his team-mates?
Yes and no. I spend my days working with 17&18 year olds. Only the wronguns post the shit he did.
If you work with 17 & 18 year olds it's a shame that you're writing some of them off already.
He’s just got out a double centurion, on his test debut, and you expect him to sheepishly nod and shake hands with his team-mates?
Yep - totally. Could not have put it better. That would have been the correct attitude of a man doing his best for a team he knows his past actions had put in an embarrassing position (given the initiative launched that very morning).
If you work with 17 & 18 year olds it’s a shame that you’re writing some of them off already.
If I deal with them at 17/18 (with the sort attitude he was showing at that age) and then when you hear about what that year group are up to in later life and the ones that were knobs at 17/18 are still being knobs at 25, is that writing them off?
Racists/sexists mostly get better know when to hide it, rather than stop being racist/sexist.
I’m in 2 minds over England’s tactics.
It was a chance for a win, and give something to the crowd.
But……
How many times have we criticised England’s inability to fight & stay in? Sibley did the job he is in the side to do.
I’m in 2 minds over England’s tactics.
I'm not. They didn't need to tee off from ball 1 Big Bash style. Just a bit of nurdling and taking some singles would have set the right tone and maybe persuaded Williamson to alter his tactics. You can review at the end of each over whether you are still going for it or not.
I have a lot of time for how England handled the chase as I think had they gone for it, they may well have found themselves in the proverbial very quickly.
You have to remember we have a pretty limited batting order at the moment. Neither Burns or Sibley score quickly, Crawley is out of form (and has been since he hit that double), Lawrence and Pope both have potential but no runs to their name and Bracey is on debut. If you had Stokes and Buttler (and Bairstow?) in there you may have had a go, but not with that current team.
I'm on the fence re. Robinson. Those tweets were not good at all, and a conversation needs to be had both with him and whoever does the due diligence at the ECB. The rumour is that he's always had a bit of a reputation so someone should definitely have been checking his history. But, plenty of people are idiots at 18 and turn themselves around once they see more of life, I don't know enough of him to know if that's the case here. I think a suspension and some strong words behind the scenes are the right move.
I have a lot of time for how England handled the chase as I think had they gone for it, they may well have found themselves in the proverbial very quickly.
There's a yawning chasm between Root's words (we want to win all seven tests) and deeds. As others have said, by being just a little more proactive, they could've kept the scoreboard moving quickly enough to make a decision about whether to go for it or not. Equally, had a couple of quick wickets fallen, I don't think anyone would've complained if they then decided to shut up shop.
I just don't think they felt they had the quality or consistency of batting for that kind of chase.
Ignore the openers and Root, how many runs do you think Crawley, Lawrence, Pope and Bracey could get between then? On recent performances, 80 maybe if they're lucky? So you lose the openers early as they've been told to go and play some shots, and you're suddenly replying on an out of form middle order and a bowler on debut to hold an end up? No chance. Take the draw and move on.
The best defence for their negative tactics seems to be that they were right to be negative as they aren’t that good. But do you really want to tell the opposition that you know you aren’t very good? It’s hardly going to drive fear into the hearts of India or the Aussies let alone the team we have to play again this week. And what’s the point of saying that you want to win all 7 tests if at the first opportunity you don’t even try? I’ve never rooted for the opposition before but I won’t be at all sorry to see NZ give us a kicking in the second test.
But do you really want to tell the opposition that you know you aren’t very good?
Missing their two best attacking batsmen though. If Stokes and Buttler were there I'm pretty sure they would have had a go.
I get that no-one likes to lose a test or a series and the likelihood of a successful run chase was down around 15-20%. But we had no intent whatsoever, the ask was for around 3.5 an over, and we were down in the 1. somethings for half of the innings. NZ have a very good attack and I know it's easy to say we should have tried to go along at 2-3's - hardly a massive ask on paper - but by being so passive we allowed NZ to bowl at us, never asking a question of their bowlers or fields.
Root himself - finished with 40 at SR of 56 but was on 4 after 38 balls, even if Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Pope aren't the dashing strokeplayers that eg: Stokes or Buttler are, Root could have set an example and worked the field a bit more than he did.
Of course, Buttler and Bairstow and Stokes would have made a different fist of it, but NZ wouldn't have set BBS that target.
Scoring at 4/over in a test is way harder than an ODI. No fielding restrictions/bowler limits. Worn pitch/rough for spinners, plus a full width crease for hiding the ball. NZ bowlers are no mugs on a nibbling pitch either.
I bet there are posts a few pages back on this thread criticising England for not batting out draws.
We didn't need to score at 4 an over. If we'd rotated strike for 2.5 and got to 100, 120 for 3 or 4 in 40-50 overs then we'd have had an option. We left ourselves nowhere to go.
There will come a time when we will need to chase a total like that and I hope our tactics are not to piss about and then wait for Buttler or Stokes to do it for us. We had an opportunity to learn something yesterday about how to set up a controlled run chase against a decent attack on a decent 4/5 day pitch, and learned nothing. NB, set up, not necessarily achieve it.
And at this time, and after Root's pronouncement that he wanted to entertain the crowds, I just thought it was very poor.
Sadly we had 4 ducks in the first innings, with an inexperienced team all playing for their places/future. In 6 months time nobody will remember that you only got 10 trying to make a game of it.
I'd suggest that England line up over achieved against a team due to appear in the Test Final. Lords, partcularly as a first test in a series, doesn't seem to get England great results at the best of times.
I wouldn't listen to a word Root says about entertaining - he's become an ECB robot, can't remember the last time he said something that someone else had written down for him.
Government are now wading in with their opinions about Robinson, oh dear. Even though I thought it was harsh the Dowden and Bojo can piss right off with their anti woke culture war populist BS.
"PM with past track record of racist and sexist comments in 'nothing to see here' shock"
Lovely little 'when did you stop beating your wife' opportunity for SKS at PMQ this week, if he fancies it.
Government are now wading in with their opinions about Robinson, oh dear.
It follows similar comments about the football team taking the knee. Appealing to their base, I guess.
Appealing to their base, I guess.
Yep.
Mike Carberry nails it:
"Robinson spoke about educating himself, but what is he talking about? I would be very interested to know. I am a black man and I have never needed any education to speak to my white friends.”
What he is actually saying is "we all know that talking about 'educating oneself' is a meaningless platitude put out to sound good. It is highly unlikely he has actually done anything at all proactively and is only sorry now because he got caught".
I don't see Robinson as a political person, nor do I think he is a card-carrying member of the NF. I think he is a thick lad with a few racist influences in his life who wanted to appear to be the big man with some posts he though were 'edgy' and 'cool'. Sometimes I wish people would just be honest about how their need for 'acceptance' can make them do stupid stuff. Remember this wasn't just racism, it was 'lads on tour' sexism too. Some of the stories I have heard about county cricket would make anyone's eyes water (bunch of young, athletic, tanned blokes who regularly spend 3 consecutive nights away from home as a 'gang' and know that there are certain things that can be got away with).
very much this, both Carberry's comments and the culture in cricket.
The excuses that he was 'only' 18 and it was some time ago - it was 9 years, I know it wasn't quite as front and centre as it is now but it's not as if it was more acceptable then. There is no way he wouldn't have known what he was tweeting was racist, and while I have sympathies with the culture of trying to fit in that create a situation like that, it can't be excused. We want people to stand up to racism and bigotry, however hard it is, not play along to fit in, or at best ignore it - I didn't do it so I'm innocent still isn't quite good enough.
ECB are also according to the BBC investigating a second England player. Who's trembling behind their coffin at nets this morning? comment 'in due course' makes me wonder if it's a more senior member of the set up......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57393217
There is no way he wouldn’t have known what he was tweeting was racist, and while I have sympathies with the culture of trying to fit in that create a situation like that, it can’t be excused.
I don't think it can be 'excused' as such, but I think the timing and the way it came out was rather shitty. But contrary to convert I do think people can change, and I do think young men in particular at 18 can be very unsure of themselves and desperate to be approved of by their peers or whatever.
He was at Yorkshire wasn't he, which is a club with a history of problems with racism. I just think partly it's easy to pile on Robinson about these tweets, as if somehow that's the problem fixed, when actually there's a much wider problem in cricket/society in general.
“Robinson spoke about educating himself, but what is he talking about? I would be very interested to know. I am a black man and I have never needed any education to speak to my white friends.”
The difference presumably is that Carberry didn't grow up in a culture where people of other races were routinely mocked/looked down on/discriminated against etc. I'm not saying it's ok but the situations aren't directly comparable.
I'm returning to this briefly to say something I forgot to say before....
“I am sorry, and I have certainly learned my lesson today,”
For me this was a damning and telling comment. He could have said that in the intervening years he has learnt to appreciate the damage comments like he has made could have on others. But no, he said he learnt his lesson the day the comments had a direct influence on his own career - on him. 7 years might have past but the lesson only happen today. When he learnt his lesson today, he learnt that being a knob can have a long term impact on yourself and you can be found out at an inopportune moment in the future. That's nice and all and will help him navigate the world without offending people but that's not what we needed to hear. We needed to hear that he is not that person. The fact that he is now just a more stealthy racist or misogynist is not really the point.
I'm expecting Boult to be a real handful with the new conker this morning. He's a lovely bowler.
Matt Henry not so much. He bowls a heavy ball and is a real tryer, but gun barrel straight a lot of the time.
5000!
No spinner for England, but the cloud cover does suggest some swing.
No spinner for England
The modern theory is that spinners have to be able to at least hold a bat unless you have 1 or 2 quality seam-bowling allrounders. They can't afford Leach at the moment with the length of the tail and the shakiness at the top of the order. I don't necessarily agree but some stats somewhere probably back it up.
We can't go back to the days of 1999 when (I think) there was genuine potential for England's 8-11 being Caddick > Mullaly > Tufnell > Giddins.
A real 'Union Tail' - one out, all out.
Crawley's dismissal was horrible, just seen the replay.
giving catching practice
Seriously long tail, irrelevant of if it#s Leach or not. Wood at 8 is at least a place to high.
This is not good, it's like watching England in the 90's. Poor work.
Burns gone - England now in the shit. Bracey and Lawrence in together at 'only' five down.... with Wood in next.
😳
Wood is in now :0/
Mind I’ve been wanting to see Anderson and Broad bowl on this today
Edit
Wrong, it’s Stone
And Bracey has bagged another blob. And a golden one at that. Chasing a wide one...
FFS.
Need these 2 to stay in as I'm there tomorrow and want to see Broad batting. Dig in fellas.
As a wise old bowler once said to me:
"Never underestimate the the ability of a batsman to get himself out".
I.e. if you sense that a bloke is pacing around, bristling or looking like they need to feel bat on ball then don't be afraid to dangle the hook with a half volley (I was a left armer so running a straight half volley across a new right hander was a favourite trick - once got an oppo 'gun' batsman - who'd hit us for 180 in the first half of the season - first ball with an angled half volley - I knew he'd have a dart at it and the most it would cost was 4 runs).
Tradecraft can make up for all sorts of technical shortcomings!
Right, come on Jimmy, get a 6 fer and overtake Kumble to become the 3rd highest wicket taker of all time
Can confirm that, despite the cricket being pretty average, Edgbaston is buzzing.
So after another fabulous start to their 2nd innings, what do we think England will be on at the close of day 3?
68-4 is my bet
5 down 🙁
dear god we're dreadful
Will we even get the 14 needed to get ahead?!
Jesus dickyhepburn, you’re a glass half full kinda guy, right?!
England deserve this after the point blank refusal to even have a go last game.
We have only two world class players (Root and Anderson) in this side, a pretty good one (Broad) and a reasonable one (Burns). Other than that pretty average. You have to feel for Bracey. No way he was ever going to get a decent run in the team unless he made himself impossible to drop by scoring back-to-back hundreds and keeping like Adam Gilchrist. Unfortunately he has batted like Stevie Wonder and kept wicket like Andrea Bocelli.
Stone is a bit of an early Broad rebooted. Wood has been ok but he's a luxury and needs other reliable bowlers around him to be fully effective. Broad is looking older than Anderson.
The other batsmen (Crawley, Pope, Sibley, Lawrence) aren't up to it. Of that four, only Pope actually looks a prospect.
It's the succession that is most worrying. Take Anderson and Broad out of the team and we're in the same class as West Indies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
🤦♂️
Wood a luxury? From today's scorecard he's our best batsman plus he can bowl a bit!
Today was as bad as England have been for a while and I have no idea why Buttler, Woakes, Curran and Moeen are apparently too tired to play for England but are fine to play for their counties? Plus no full time spinner? Plus choosing to bat first in humid cloudy conditions?
I'm by no means an expert, but the decision making is utterly baffling.
Wood a luxury?
Yes. He's an expensive but wicket-taking bowler who shouldn't be used in long spells. As such he can't (and shouldn't) be expected to bowl a 'fair share' of the overs. Don't get me wrong, I love bowlers with the 90+ x-factor and most captains would love to have one to carry around like a six shooter, but you need three other reliable seamers ideally.
Stokes is the key to so much. A world class allrounder is (obviously) two players in one. If Stokes had been available for this game, Leach would probably have played.
We also cannot overlook the fact that this NZ side isn't even their full first choice. They also have a longer tail than a spider monkey, but we never got that far into them while it still mattered. Fielding like a village second XI didn't help either.
Plus choosing to bat first in humid cloudy conditions?
The wicket was, pretty much, a road. Under normal circumstances a captain would never win the toss and bowl first on that track whatever the overhead conditions.
Feels to me like the bowling is OK, the batting is clearly the issue.
Burns - useable, but no more than that. I’d like another option here but don’t see one
Sibley - not at the right level. I’d bring someone like Sam Robson in as it’s too early for Haseeb Hameed.
Crawley - drop him. He’ll come back, but needs some time away. Is Bairstow still on option? Dawid Malan maybe? Or even give Bracey another chance up the order without the gloves.
Root - he stays, though I’m still not convinced about his captaincy.
Pope - flatters once again, looks great 20 runs and then falls. No idea what to do with him, promote him to 3 maybe?
Lawrence - I think he deserves to keep his place, he has potential for me. If Stokes come in then that means Pope goes.
Bracey - if he stays he has to lose the gloves and go up the order. This test was too early for him to do both and it showed. Buttler will come in, you could debate that Foakes should come in.
Wood - stays around, expensive with the ball but I like him. Not sure he plays every game though.
Stone/Robinson - both have merits and deserve another chance.
Broad - look jaded to me, in England he stays, but away from home? Less sure.
Anderson - stays as long as he wants to, but I wonder how much longer he’ll want to stay and damage his legacy.
Leech - play him, please.
Yeah I agree with you re Wood. I was just being a bit tongue in cheek about him being England's best batter today.
Do you think Silverwood and Root think that Root is a far better spinner than he actually is after the India series? Sure he took a few wickets in India in very helpful conditions but he's nowhere near good enough to do a proper spinners job in England.
The thing that worries me about Bracey is he looked scared. If he's scared of NZ at Edgbaston, what's he going to do at the Gabba facing Hazelwood and Cummins?
Jesus dickyhepburn, you’re a glass half full kinda guy, right?!
😂😂Shortbread my first guess was 122-8 but my son assured me they won’t be that bad. Boycs mum and a stick’o’rhubarb to open 👍
The thing that worries me about Bracey is he looked scared. If he’s scared of NZ at Edgbaston, what’s he going to do at the Gabba facing Hazelwood and Cummins?
Probably not so much 'scared' as not seeing any way of getting started scoring and questioning his technique then making bad choices as a result. It doesn't make much differences, though, facing the world's premier proper quick bowlers on the Gabbatoir...
I played with some decent young county level players when I was 17-20. One of them played for Cambridge University against Glenn McGrath when he was at Worcester. He lasted a while then nicked off. He then said he went to bat in the nets next morning and felt like he didn't know which end of the bat to hold, he'd been turned inside out so comprehensively.
😳
You couldn't make this up!
India next.... it's only going to get worse.
India next…. it’s only going to get worse.
Not necessarily. India are a shadow of their normal selves in English conditions. England may well flatter to deceive again.
so your moneys on NZ @ the rosebowl then ?
Pope – flatters once again, looks great 20 runs and then falls. No idea what to do with him, promote him to 3 maybe?
Replace him with Vincent. He'll get 35 great runs before nicking off.
This Ind v NZ final day is a good ‘un
Indeed. The “spare day” in tests is a good idea.
Really pleased to see NZ win. Classy team who play the game in the right way and especially deserved after the 2019 WC.
Who’s tuned in to BBC2 for this evenings T20?
A Covid breakout in the England bubble means a completely new team for the one dayers.
It'll be very interesting to see who gets a call up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57732043
It’ll be very interesting to see who gets a call up.
Might start turning my arm over in the kitchen just in case...
Great start for England’s 3rd team
Anyone tuned in for the Hundred?