[Closed] Muslim Extremists

Blatent troll is blatent...

I've got hob nobs and everything

Just don't bring beer.

All extremists ought to be shot!

Saw this today and thought it quite apt

[img] [/img]

Blatant troll by asking a civilised question in an Internet forum, obvious really!!! 🙁

Blatant troll by asking a civilised question in an Internet forum, obvious really!!!

So the question may be better rephrased in a less trolly way as :

"Is now the time to take a different approach when dealing with preachers of hate".

Or even getting rid of the religious overtones

"Is now the time to take a different approach when dealing with advocates of hatred".

Oh, and getting rid of the inflammatory 'Muslim' in the title.

Muslamic raygams?

The uk government has spent a lot of time, effort and money trying to deport Abu Quatarda. What would the consequences actually be of putting him on a plane and handing him over to the Jordanian authorities?
Not the moral / legal argument but the actual consequences of carrying out the wishes of the uk government.
Genuinely interested. Not interested in pathetic slurs on me for asking a simple question.

The British government would be sued.

Not the moral / legal argument but the actual consequences of carrying out the wishes of the uk government.
Genuinely interested. Not interested in pathetic slurs on me for asking a simple question.

You can't divorce the question from the moral/legal aspect - either we have a rule of law or we don't. If we don't, what's the difference between us and a terrorist?

*makes coffee*

Dickie - what about the next bad guy in line behind AQ? Are they 'bad' enough to deport to a foreign regime at the whim of our government, without question? And the next behind them, and the next... who draws the line and how do they draw it?

That's why there's a legal process - even though it appears to suck sometimes.

Sued by whom and for how much? As much as the so far failed legal attempts of deportation and the lengthy stay behind bars etc?

dickieboy - do you believe in the rule of law - yes or no?
Do you believe it's legitimate to use torture - yes or no?

Is now the time to take a different approach when dealing with preachers of hate against the west?

Of course not unless the 'different approach' you're alluding to is to physically harm them in which case I think the evidence of the last few hundred years has demonstrated that doesn't work.

Alternatively, should we continue to enforce the law as it is? Yes, it's not always perfect but it's the best we, as a democracy, can manage.

In the words of the proper EDL (English Disco Lovers):

"Don't listen to Nazi-sympathizers, dance along to synthesizers!"

"Do not be a racist pig, don your flares and disco wig!"

"Fewer zenophobes, more crazy strobes!"

There are extremists of all shapes, sizes and denominations. The one thing they really hate more than anything is to be ignored and rendered irrelevant.

I'm in, thought i'd treat myself this time and get a Premiere seat, and pop corn! Its true, there really is more leg room!

Not the moral / legal argument but the actual consequences of carrying out the wishes of the uk government.

Now that the profile of his case has been raised to degree that it has probably very little beyond him getting a fair trial and sentencing if found guilty. Had they deported him back when they first wanted to my understanding is that the likelihood of him being tortured would have been very high.

What would the consequences actually be of putting him on a plane and handing him over to the Jordanian authorities?

You need to think about the state of totalism that cults, terrorists and fundamentalists are trying to create. Radical acts are perpertrated to try and illicit disproportionate responses. If we as a nation or a society or government change or ignore our own laws, morals or actions in the face of terrorism then that fuels and reinforces that totalism. If we respond for instance by breaking our own laws to extradite Quatarda we reinforce the sense of victimhood amongst him and his followers and make their cause (to them) to seem all the more legitimate.

The most appropriate response to terrorism is not to be terrorised, not to react in a fearful and unreasoned manner. We used to be good at not being terrorised.

Henry the 8th made himself head of the church. Can't the queen make herself head of Islam?

She could make up the rules. Job done.

plus, extremists, preachers of hate and religious fanatics are much easier to keep an eye on when they're in this country. Send them abroad and the same hate is harder to monitor.

She could make up the rules. Job done.

OK. Bad taste. IGMC.

I reckon we could make a plan to protect ourselves, and it'll sort of work, only sort of cos its not a perfect world.

howabout we use diplomacy and the spread of the free market in the west to influence those in the middle east and rest of the developing world? we could send funds and other resources to regimes that are friendly to us and undermine those who aren't. We would need to focus on those who produce natural resources such as oil and gas first. get them on board with large development contracts in tandem with our largest companies, provide them with munitions and training to help stabilise them and keep them friendly. Obviously there will be dissenters and unfortunately to keep them in line we will need to put bodies on the ground, but actually that sort of helps us too as it allows a greater degree of influence and control in 'affected' regions.

Now you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. People are going to oppose this and people are going to die. But, and this may sound callous, most of them won't be from our country. The positives massively outweigh the negatives for us in the west. If we want to maintain our standards of living someone has to pay for them and the developing world is so big that taking a little from each of them makes sound economic sense.

If we as a nation or a society or government change or ignore our own laws, morals or actions in the face of terrorism then that fuels and reinforces that totalism.

+1 - this is why Guantanamo is such a disaster, if the people locked up there really are dangerous, put them on trial, with a fair and competent defense lawyer.

Not interested in pathetic slurs on me for asking a simple question.

It's not a pathetic slur although I can see how it may have come across as a bit blunt. There's a 7 page thread about extremists that you could have asked this question on.

Anyway, in answer to your question - no, I don't think we should take a different approach. In fact, I think any sort of knee jerk reaction to what amounts to a couple of thugs performing a hideous act in order to get exposure would be exactly the wrong thing to do.

This case should be handled for what it is - a vile hateful act and the sentence dished out appropriately. In this case, life imprisonment. Using it as an excuse to go round beating up Muslims (EDL) or changing the way we deal with other offenders is precisely what shouldn't happen.

Henry the 8th made himself head of the church.

Now you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. People are going to oppose this and people are going to die. But, and this may sound callous, most of them won't be from our country. The positives massively outweigh the negatives for us in the west

I imagine that this plan will be met with unwavering support from migrants that have relatives in those countries..
I know that I would be as pleased as punch if the shoe was on the other foot, and my dear old gran was getting her vegetable patch bombed to gomorrah and back week after week.. ([i]not[/i] a euphemism)

Seems pretty foolproof to me.. 🙂
When do we start..?

Funny that this story didn't seem to attract much media coverage a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22474530?SThisFB

Seems pretty foolproof to me..
When do we start..?

Some time around the Elizabethan era

Funny that this story didn't seem to attract much media coverage a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22474530?SThisFB

How many of these people do you remember being in the mainstream news?
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html

Funny that this story didn't seem to attract much media coverage a couple of weeks ago:

Well it made it onto the BBC website which is pretty significant and so it should do it was an awful crime.
Whats your point?

Why is that funny?

Funny because the Media didn't whip the country up into a frenzy when a single muslim was murdered, but have when another single murder has been commited by alleged muslims.

Similar to the two child grooming gangs that received very differing levels of coverage.

Funny because the Media didn't whip the country up into a frenzy when a single muslim was murdered, but have when another single murder has been commited by alleged muslims.

You [i]really[/i] don't see the difference between a chap disappearing late at night and someone being ran over, chopped up and beheaded by two animals who them give an interview in broad daylight on a main street in the capital? Really really?
I'm guessing you're one of those perpetually offended people aren't you?

Funny because the Media didn't whip the country up into a frenzy when a single muslim was murdered

I reckon if some dicks from the EDL had done similar to what happened yesterday to a muslim the media would still be up in arms about it

I'm guessing you're one of those perpetually offended people aren't you?

No, not at all. I'm very rarely offended by anyone/anything.

Two very disturbed people have got the 5 minutes of fame they craved (in my opinion).

a different approach

from behind with a cloth bag?

Simple, send them packing

If you don't like it get out

Simple, send them packing

Who?

Definitely time for a change of approach.

So far there's been a startling lack of bleached hair, oversized shorts, bungee jumping and use of the word 'rad'. I'm starting to wonder whether these chaps have ever actually watched a Pepsi Max advert.

Opening post ? Preachers of hatred wasn't it ?

Where should we send them packing to?

Where should we send them packing to?

Scotland.

dickieboy - Member
Is now the time to take a different approach when dealing with preachers of hate against the west?

Yes. Emphatically, yes.

Let's stop trying to force them to become us. Let's try understanding them a little better, educating ourselves more about who they are, what they believe and why they may be behaving in this way. An appreciation of historical context and current situation will help.

Once we have done that and we have an idea of how we may help them in a way that is acceptable and appreciated by them, we can start to provide them with aid, support, medicine, other things that may help them achieve what they consider a better quality of life.

It's hard to convince a group of people to hate someone who is genuinely helping them and the ones they love.

I would suggest that this may be a better approach than some of the US led education and change programmes we have seen in the past.

Just my tuppence worth.

rogerthecat for PM..!!

Good stuff

Let's stop trying to force them to become us. Let's try understanding them a little better, educating ourselves more about who they are, what they believe and why they may be behaving in this way. An appreciation of historical context and current situation will help.

Countzero-- the cat was pleading for empathy, regarding imperialism/colonialism and how that legacy and ongoing ideology is bad for all of us-- in other words the root cause of problem, not its manifestation-- a rogue form of islamic extremism-- well thats how i read it ....so + 2 from me !!