I'm another very amateur guitarist who regards EVH as a guitar great even if it's not what I listen to. Supercarp has it, there are guitarists who take technique to the next level and make it tuneful while there at it.
The low voltage amp thing was just a lucky observation, a 220v euro Marshall plugged into 110 made a sound he liked and worked. When you hear a combination of tapping and hammer ons that sound like a superfast keyboard it's al EVH's fault or genius depending on your view. When junior was learning to play I knew when he first listened to EVH.
I have always been a huge VH fan, but I know nothing about 'good' or 'bad' guitar playing, just what makes me feel good, and VH music makes me feel excellent. You may not like it, thats cool with me. One of my mates likes jazz, I find it painful to listen to. So it goes.
To me it's a bit emperors new clothes, art is not measurable in any way, so all reactions to it are highly subjective.
Im saving that for you. 😉
If only I were famous and played guitar. The censored bit is definitely true though 😀
I love how there’s so many armchair rock guitarists on here saying that EVH wasn’t all that, when many actual rock guitarists disagree
But the comments you then quote say little about the precise nature of his playing. I don't doubt that he was a 'beautiful soul' (as measured by Gene Simmons! 😉 ), or that he was truly creative. I am only challenging the seemingly extreme accolades that poured in for his guitar playing and musicianship.
And on that front, a few people on the first page of this thread have directed me towards some examples to substantiate the claims. Which is kind of what I was wanting.
That said, from a musical point of view, @tjagain, I would be one of those who believe that Johnny Marr is brilliant. I think that his juxtaposition of the guitar with Morrissey's Anglican-choirboy voice was unparalleled. Although one of the best Smiths songs is one without Morrissey in it at all: Oscillate Wildly. But all of that is an aside.
I've got over 1000 CD and vinyl albums - none of them are by VH and none of them are by Abba. In both cases I admire their technical proficiency but as music it just isn't my sort of thing.
Although one of the best Smiths songs is one without Morrissey in it at all
I think most things are improved by an absence of Morrissey. I keep hearing people say that Johnny Marr is a genius, but I just can't bear to listen to the Smiths for long enough to find out for myself.
This was revolutionary.
I'm not an expert in rock guitar but as someone who's at least tried to play the guitar that clip is pretty creative and very well executed. Clearly references Bach, of course, but I would bet that whole thing (like most guitar solos) is improvised which means he's working all that together on the fly as a direct piece of musical expression.
I don't like it much though, personally.
Black flag,
No doubt Metallica and FNM etc would have become popular of their own accord. What I was aware of at the time was how via the sonic innovation (of which much has been mentioned on here) and their flirtation with pop they put an end to the era of denim and leather metal image in the UK, opening up audiences to the different styles of rock, metal and alternative music that was on the horizon.
Musical taste is personal and subjective.
To answer your OP @SaxonRider. There was before EVH and after. The same as 10 years previous with Hendrix. EVH caused a seismic shift in what was possible with regards to guitar playing.
Lots of people will say he was nothing special, but then they don’t like his style of music, whilst st the same time professing that someone else was better. That’s just personal taste, not a reflection on how revolutionary EVH was / is.
The art world lost a very troubled but ultimately a true genius when EVH passed on.
RIP Eddie.
On the "heavy plastic" point. I didn't like AC DC but they were the real thing. No matter how good Van Halens guitar work was the band were a pale imitation of proper metal / rock
So its not just about ( for me) what I liked or didn't like. There is something there about the "realness" or integrity of the band. Black sabbath had it, AC DC had it, Van Halen did not
Having come back to playing my guitars recently after a long break of several years I've noticed that a lot of people who dabble (and more) are more interested in the expensive hardware and the shredding than the songs and music that these are supposed to contribute to.
I've always been amused how many rufty tufty blokes, who wouldn't dream of listening to Bach, Schubert, Mozart etc. absolutely love similar delicate melodies played on a loud distorted guitar. And in the same vein, I always think Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending" would be brilliant if played by a Gary Moore style blues guitarist. I've had ago but it's too hard for me.
The same as 10 years previous with Hendrix. EVH caused a seismic shift in what was possible with regards to guitar playing.
I personally don’t think the two are comparable. A lot of folk forget that Jimi wasn’t just a guitar player. Singer, lyricist, effects and production innovator (bodging a speaker from a Lesley Organ in to his amp to create the sound for All Along The Watchtower). Not to mention his rhythm playing and the fact he took an established genre in the blues and took it somewhere new.
Then there’s the live playing. He rarely played a song the same way more than once. Just improvised all the time and the playing was intertwined with the lyrics, sometimes even replacing them (machine gun, star spangled banner). A lot of the technical players practice solos and then repeat them night after night at live shows.
VH was technically excellent and in that respect a better player. But to quote another technical player, Joe Satriani: "I've picked apart Jimi's music and analyzed it so much over the years, and there's still things he did that astound and mystify me. When I watch footage of him playing at the Fillmore East, when he's playing Machine Gun, I'm blown away by his musical choices. And that's the thing: it wasn't about his gear, his guitar, it wasn't about what mic he was singing into it, it wasn't about anything but his own brilliance.
"I'm pretty sure you could have handed him any guitar and any amp and he would've blown the roof off the place no matter what. His impulses, his intuition, what he did one second to the next, how he moved his hands, knowing to play this note after that note…it was deep.
You have to look at Van Halen in the context of the time. To hugely mix metaphors, it's a bit like when Star Wars came out - the Sci Fi at the time was 2001 and Buck Rogers. Star Wars was so ahead of its time in everything to do with special effects and visual drama that the film world took notice and realised that there was a new bar to jump.
The same with Van Halen - they appeared in a time of disco and punk, which in turn emerged from the death of glam and endless guitar solo prog. No one wanted to see a guitar band. Van Halen's stuff was innovative rather than derivative. He didn't improve on what went before, but rather started again, making (musical...) noises that had rarely been heard on a guitar, but all in the name of moving the song along and making the band sound fresh and exciting.
And, as a guitarist, he invented or furthered many different technical aspects of both playing and the physical thing of the electric guitar itself. And it wasn't a gradual thing. Van Halen exploded onto the scene. There truly was a time before Eddie and a time when nothing would ever be the same...
Cougar comes along and says what I’d already said. Hmph.
In my defence, you hadn't said it when I started typing that post.
You might not like his ability but you have respect Johhny Marrs skill in taking a Jaguar, telecaster or rickenbacker and not making it sound like a high tensioned lump of wood being smashed repeatedly against a total ****.
it’s a bit like when Star Wars came out – the Sci Fi at the time was 2001 and Buck Rogers.
Objection - whilst it has a history in previous media going back decades, the 70s Buck Rogers TV show "at the time" came after Star Wars, it was one of many attempts to ride the wave and cash in on Star Wars' popularity.
What you wrote about Jimi is exactly the same for EVH.
Eddie was more than a guitarist. He isn’t actually that brilliant a technician, he’s a feel player compared to the shred-a-million-miles-per-hour players. And lord knows there are millions of them.
Lots of music snobs don’t like Van Halens musical output, deriding it as bubblegum rock. But it was never meant to be serious, they were a party band. Phenomenally good at what they did, without parallel IMHO.
Serious? No. Fun? **** yeah!
There’s no doubt that EVH changed the way aspiring guitarists approached the instrument. He was and will always be a legend.
You've just demonstated why people compare EVH and Jimi, Funkmasterp. Do some reading and listening on EVH and you'l find most of what you've writen about Jimi. EVH was the very much into the song writing process. He was just as innovative with his gear as others have noted above. He could pick up anybody elses guitar and sound great.
As for improvised solos they are rarely completely improvised, and if they are they rely on a regular blus base otherwise you have no idea where to go. It's all very coded. Each player has a repetoire of licks, riffs and tricks and uses them over standard format. Anything else requires everyone in the band to know what's going on and play their appropriate parts. EVH was that - structured songs with stops, breaks - more like a classic symphony than blues rock.
Some songs I can solo over the top all the way through. It takes a few seconds to find out what key it's in then away you go. EVH goes way beyond that, if you went to every night of a concert tour you'd hear each solo note perfect each time.
There are guitarists who just improvise and sometimes it's shambolic. Louis Bertignac of Téléphone put some great solos together for the albums but never repeats them live. Yet many fans such as myself learn the original solos.
Lots of music snobs don’t like Van Halens musical output, deriding it as bubblegum rock. But it was never meant to be serious, they were a party band
Good point well presented. In my defense my rock days were many years ago and while I was trying at the time to get away from the longhair serious sitting in circles and seriously listen to the music Van Halen never stuck me like that ( to be seen as a party band) to me it just lacked soul.
I shall have to ponder this a bit more. Maybe I was expecting too much. I was into the poetry and story telling of Thin Lizzy and the rage of black sabbath. Itsd all an awful long time ago tho for me. I grew out of rock in my mid 20s!
Is it all true, or is it just what people say when the world loses a rock guitarist?
My cousin's cousins idolise him as guitar "god" of some sort because they are all musicians of some sort. I used to listen to Van Halen for a while (introduced to me by my cousin as I was pretending to be cool, I feel dirty now thinking of it) but until today I can only remember or name one song from them that is Jump. I find their Jump video very funny and happy while the rest of their music is just a blur. Nothing memorable. In the Jump video I think David Lee Roth can shout very loudly and in tune I guess. To me people are very attached to their idols and in this case perhaps a rock guitarist.
Greatest? Soon they will run of excessive adjectives and that's when the problems starts. The description will no longer be normal, mediocre or average. They are all greatest of great of the great multiple by many more greats N+1. Imagine they are all greats N+1 does that mean they are all average? Try describing someone as normal, mediocre and average and you will get into trouble.
To answer your question, yes there is an excessive use of adjectives.
What you wrote about Jimi is exactly the same for EVH.
Read Crosstown traffic, it explains it so much better than I can. Jimi was a lot more and had (still has in fact) a much wider influence on music as a whole. Not just his guitar playing, his whole approach.
Do some reading and listening on EVH and you’l find most of what you’ve writen about Jimi.
One has soul and instinct (possibly massive amounts of LSD) and regularly wrote all the music and lyrics. Lyrics which were steeped in the blues tradition yet also moved it on and worked in harmony with the guitar. Especially the rhythm playing. The other is technically proficient and, to my ears, so very cold and calculated as are most shredders or technical players. The ones I’ve previously mentioned plus the likes of Slash. All technically great players, but missing something. Groove, soul, whatever it is, it’s lacking in those players to my ear. I also am not a fan of much 80’s mainstream rock (except ZZ Topp).
There truly was a time before Eddie and a time when nothing would ever be the same…
Really? passed me completely by, that. Maybe back then you were into music that reflected the changes in the political and cultural landscape, or you were into party bands.
Jimi was an influence sure but you're overstating it. In fact I suggest that it faded rapidly from about 76. The music it inspired went out of fashion and the rock that remained in fashion had very little of Jimi's influence. Bands' influences often come to light when the court cases over plagiarism start. Saying Jimi is your inspiration is good for street cred, revealing your true influences financially risky. Let's face it saying Slade is your influence doesn't have the same ring, but if you listen to Play it Loud you'll have more success in identifying licks and riffs than Jimi's stuff. If you can play Dave Hill's licks you can play any Noel Gallagher solo. If you can play Nod's riffs you'll have no trouble with punk.
In fact the Jimi thing can be irritating to the point I avoid playing Jimi stuff even if I can, I don't play EVH stuff because I can't, it's beyond me, it uses techiniques I haven't mastered at a speed I can't reach. And there's too much going on, like that other great, Tommy Emmanuel or as someone once said, the greatest two guitarists (he forgot to add "and a drummer"). So I put EVH up there with Tommy Emmanuel, they both make Jimi sound pedestrian however much soul groove or whatever Jimi is supposed to have.
This is turning into a sad thread about someone who visibly enjoyed playing. if Jump doesn't make you smile this won't either, people who are really good don't have to take themselves seriously in front of their audiences:
I’m glad (for once 🤪) for a 🎷 nrider thread (what happened there?).
I really didn’t want to add a ‘well, I thought he was shite’ to the EVH tribute thread... 🤪,
I really don’t get him/them at all (and those tributes listed earlier, I ****ing detest them an all Garry Moore most of all I suspect). I’m inclined to the funkmasterp take, missing ‘soul’.
Maybe it’s because I lean towards minimalism but rawk just leaves me cold. I do like a bit of guitar (Lou Reed/Velvets, Neil Young, Hell I’ve even a clutch of Led Zepp, a couple of Hendrix, a Zz Top or two and a AC/DC album sumwhere...) but I honestly can’t think of anything I like even influenced by EVH... unless Rodriguez y Gabriella perhaps?
Jimi was an influence sure but you’re overstating it. In fact I suggest that it faded rapidly from about 76. The music it inspired went out of fashion and the rock that remained in fashion had very little of Jimi’s influence
Jack White, Dan Auberach, The Black Pumas, Frank Ocean, QOTSA, Clutch and a whole boat load of hip hop and R&B artist disagree with you. He’s heavily sampled still too. He’s stull inspiring to this day and not just his guitar playing. I’m not overstating anything. You’re simply looking at it from a narrow rock centric point of view. Far more wide reaching than 80’s cock rock will ever be.
It’s not about whether you can play it or not. Coming up with it in the first place is what counts. Not being able to play something isn’t a sign of how great it is and is quite a sad way to look at it. Im a pretty shitty bass player, but can play most of what a Larry Graham wrote. Has no bearing on the fact he was one of the best bass players of his (or any) generation. I don’t like Jump, it’s a ****ing irritating shit show of a dad rock song like pretty much all of 80’s mainstream rock.
If you don’t have groove you’ve turned music in to some sort of sad science experiment. Hence why Steve Vai and his ilk exist. It’s like somebody programmed a guitar robot. If that floats your boat that’s fine, but to say Hendrix influence died in 76 is just a tad silly. Van Halen, great technically proficient player. As an influence on music as a whole (not just rock) and culture in general. Infinitesimal in comparison.
You know how when The Matrix came out it seemed really amazing, then it spawned loads of imitators and became terribly cliched as a result? Yeah, that.
Can we all 'enjoy' this again though pls
I thoroughly recommend Rick Beato's "What Makes This Song Great" series on YouTube and he did Jump a year ago
Neil Young
The worst guitarist I've seen live by a country mile. 🙂
Just a few influentual guitarists:
The blues men, Johnson the Kings...
Scotty Moore
Eddy Cochrane
Chuck Berry,
James chicken pickin' Burton
All of those before Hendrix, when I watch Hendrix I see pre-existing techniques being refined, EVH was tapping and pulling off with both hands using finger and thumb on the right hand and sometimes timing it to a delay pedal - who did that before? Feel free to point out something Hendrix did no-one had ever done before other than setting fire to his guitar, I can't think of anything.
As per previous posts go read Crosstown Traffic and then come back. Nothing to say regarding his influence stopping in 76? You list some random blues players that came before and fail to mention that he took that genre and all the playing techniques somewhere new and nobody has expanded on that since. He spent years as a jobbing musician and watched and learned from it. He refined and reimagined the blues and became a musical and cultural icon.
Your arguments are making no sense. I’ve already said VH was a better technical player. Doesn’t mean he composed great songs that stand the test of time though. Jimi did and not just the guitar parts
Doesn’t mean he composed great songs that stand the test of time though
The proof you have that wrong is on Youtube, check out the number of hits on EVH's early work. 🙂 They have stood the test of time, that's why this thread exists. people still care 40 years on.
@funkmasterp how much would you be willing to bet, exactly?To finish I bet it would take about four seconds of googling to find a quote from Eddie siting Jimi as an influence. Argument pretty much ends there really.
EDIT: haha, quick edit! Guess you took those 4 seconds and realised you were totally wrong! 😉
And contrast with Hendrix streams, purchase, YouTube etc from 3 records. Factor in the other guy shuffled off the mortal coil about a week ago and it still doesn’t stack up. We could do this all night, we just disagree.
@funkmasterp how much would you be willing to bet, exactly?
Not much, that’s why I deleted that bit 😀 not being able to afford a wah pedal and saying he was too abstract is a compliment in my eyes. Influenced by Clapton who thought Jimi was the best thing since sliced bread though 😉
Who cares.
Cycling way back from fannying about with my JTV and my THR10 during the afternoon with a mate I wandered into my local before the evening rush, ended up throwing out a few really cliched bits and bobs in front of 4 or 5 people and a huge fire and am now out for a date on Saturday with a cute lady.
Let the rock flow!!!!
And its all down to Eddie, Jimi, Richie .... etc.
It always was about the shagging. Thats music.
They have stood the test of time, that’s why this thread exists. people still care 40 years on.
sounds terribly dated to me. The only people who care are middleaged men trying vainly to hold onto their youth and whos musical tastes are still defined by that long ago youth. 😉
You know how when The Matrix came out it seemed really amazing, then it spawned loads of imitators and became terribly cliched as a result? Yeah, that.
Similar to posts on this thread saying the same thing
There's an element of that TJ, I've been noodling Focus, Oasis, Slade and Los Zigarros while replying to this thread (along with watching a French soap).
Love playing it, singing along is a bit harder. I don't much mind how old stuff is, my ears tell me if I like it.
Basically, if you listen to EVH and think it sounds like other players or generic or not especially standout, remember that he's the reason a load of other guitarists sound like that. Arguably with Mozart, the real stamp of genius is that he didn't inspire a million other people to become Mozarty composers... But then again, maybe he did and we just didn't hear it, it was really hard for a young punk composer to break out before social media
Matt Bellamy from Muse did a brilliant interview a few years back... He's a spectacular guitarist, technically speaking one of the best there's ever been, but that's mostly because his genius is that he's a sort of guitarist-hoovering robot, if it can be played he can learn to play it, and straight-up copy it so well that you'd think it was the original, or borrow from/take inspiration from it and mash it into a new thing.
So anyway, he was asked how he developed the "Muse guitar sound" and he said oh, there isn't one. I listened to my dad and decided I wanted to learn to play like that, so I did, then he said listen to Hendrix, and I decided I wanted to learn to play like that, so I did. And I did the same for Brian May and Rosetta Tharpe and Eddie Van Halen and George Lynch and obviously the Edge and Tom Morello and pretty much every other guitarist I loved, and I'm still doing it" The interviewer says, that's interesting, who was the hardest, and he goes without hesitation "Eddie Van Halen, god, that took ages" So there's a compliment.
Coincidentally, he also copied Mozart.
Similar to posts on this thread saying the same thing
Ooh get you
For me, a couple of things come to mind when considering someone like EVH.
Firstly, there's a massive difference between hearing his stuff now and hearing it when it happened. Check out for instance what sort of stuff was in "the Charts" in Feb 1978 and for the six months afterwards and then wonder to yourself "where the hell did the VH stuff even come from?".
Secondly, compare VH1 - which was done and dusted in a couple of weeks - to the stuff that came a few years afterwards and took so much longer to "engineer and polish". It's like comparing a guy who sets the "hour record" on a bike made from washing machine bits to a guy who does the same on a perfectly fitting ultra-light bike.
Lastly, recognise the difference between the guy who dreams & creates this sort of stuff and the multitude of people who can copy it quite ably, but are copying it none the less.
I remember all the VH albums coming out, so I remember where I was and what I was doing at the time. I guess that makes a difference too.
Note:
"Jump" was/still is ACE.
AC/DC owned Donnington on 18th Aug 1984! I was there too 🙂
I'll have to take your word with regards AC/DC owning Donnington in 84 as I was on my way home on the motorway whilst they were 'owning it'.
AC/DC were probably the biggest act around at the time so pretty much guaranteed a rollicking reception. Van Halen played to a pretty sceptical crowd and won them over.
Looking back over some of the posts I've got to agree with TJ, Van Halen had one great musician in the band. Sabbath and AC/DC had four each.
As for those casting aspersions on Jimi Hendrix, words fail me, because words can't quite describe how brilliant he was. There's technique and then there's 'feel'.I was going to post a link to his Woodstock performance of the star spangled banner but thought if you don't know it already why would you be posting on here in the first place? If were talking about music that's aged well then please someone provide me something that better sums up contemporary America?
As a band, van halen excelled at that California good-times vibe reminiscent of the beach boys at their zenith.
As a guitarist, it was Eddie's sheer enjoyment and exuberance in the mastery of his craft.
You can hear this on his guitar solo in 'hot for teacher'.
While your brain is thing itself up in knots in a vain attempt to keep pace with his playing, it's starkly apparent that he's having the time if his life.
Interesting opinions.
Whether you like the music or not, or whether you think guitar solos are musical onanism, you can't deny that he was a talented guy.
He didn't necessarily do anything new - tapping, swooping etc had all been done before but nobody did it like him. He played music like he wrote it - by adapting and combining existing stuff in ways no one had before. Using blues inspired pentatonics, blending them into classical major scale stuff, throwing in bits of mozart, Kreutzer and the like. He borrowed sounds from flamenco but used different techniques to do it, so it didn't sound quite the same, and no one else could imitate it. For me Cathedral from Diver Down iirc was typical of him. Playing his interpretation of classical arpeggios with his left while manipulating the volume control made a sound quite k unlike anything before it.
I suspect he's the kind of guy that is appreciated more the more you know about music in general, not just guitar.
He also re-arranged Beat it to make it the song it is. Rumour has it he turned away from the audience so no one could figure out his techniques, don't know how true that is.
It's a good thing he didn't continue with the drums after deciding his brother was better at them than him.
Not to mention the super strats so popular now wouldn't exist unless he built the first one from parts in the 70s.
Without reading the rest of this thread
To me Edward wasn't close to my favorite guitarist but he is without doubt the greatest guitarist of all time
I cannot describe the clear margin he has over everyone else even though I've played guitar most of my life. Musically its just perfect - groove etc etc
Is he a modern day mozart, to my ears I dont see why not.
One of the best musicians of the era certainly
Do I like van halen music with Roth or Hager - not that much
Edward had it all, without the beat it, eruption, spanish fly, catherdral bollocks everything else is enough to convince me without a shadow of a doubt that he was blessed with such enormous talent
Can we all ‘enjoy’ this again though pls
Oof. Keyboard's at the wrong pitch/key isn't it? And they're all fighting to play/sing to it?
