Probably a question for Weeksy, but looking at something which will help me my technique on riding the motorbike.
I've had my full license for 7 years and commute on the bike 4 days a week. but feel like a lack of technique may be holding me back.
Its always been self taught, and i'm sure i'm bringing bad habbits over from mountainbiking/karting.
I race karts at a fairly high level, and can push any 4 wheeled vechile to its limits, but never feel i can do the same with the bike.
(bigger result if i step over it)
Looked at the Yamaha Track Experience School (if a bit pricey), so wondered if it was worth the money or if something else would be more suitable?
I'd look into IAM.
My dad's an instructor, and I've done it. Really helps with technique and safety (and making progress 😁)
They do one-to-one instruction on road, group rides, and track days too.
Looking at this thread with interest
I race karts at a fairly high level, and can push any 4 wheeled vechile to its limits, but never feel i can do the same with the bike.
I'm exactly the same, raced karts for 15 years @ British Champ level and still find it difficult to have confidence on my motorbike. 🙁
Buy a track day only bike and do it that way to build confidence? Knowing you wont destroy your main bike in the learning process?
Im the opposite with a car and a motorbike. Driving Miss Daisy in a car, on a Motorbike, well, .....
Always worth looking into Police BikeSafe if it or similar is available in your area. You'll get the standard lecture on road safety, speed and accident prevention. But check if you get the opportunity to go out with a Police Rider. No, they're not racing bikers, but they do know how to read the road and get the right lines on the approach to bends. If you're riding ability isn't great they'll match their input to your ability, but if it can be seen you know what you're doing (as it reads as if you do) then they'll push you to make progress. No, its not a track day and depending on the cop you may or may not have to abide by 60 or 70 speed limits within good reason (some are more lenient than others).
You may get something out of it, but if you don't go then you won't get anything.
(I used to be one of those rider / instructors a good few years ago, and we had all sorts of riders come through)
I would always go road based training over track based. Riding safely, and at speed, on the road is primarily about observation, positioning as a result of this and ongoing risk assesment, track a lot less so - you just don’t have the same hazards on a track.
Yes you may get the confidence to crank a bike right over and get your knee down but good road riding is to get so you don’t need to do that - you’ve already identified the hazard. Police ridesafe, IAM, professional training from ex or current police riders or just reading roadcraft will all be useful. Ex police advanced and surveillance team rider here.
IAM or RoSPA, similar methods based on the police roadcraft manual. Bike safe with your local plod is a good introduction first. Track days help too and are great fun but if you're doing it mainly to stay alive longer then I'd recommend a roadcraft based course first. The point about mountain biking is a good one, as I corner totally differently on a motorbike than I do on a mountain bike. Mountain bike style cornering where you stay vertical but lay the bike down might work on a motocross or other off roader but not on a road bike. In fact it can get you into a lot of trouble as you will run out of ground clearance/grip a lot earlier than with proper technique.
Try a bike safe, if you like it go for rospa or IAM
I did my IAM years back, had a really good instructor, I think the instructor is really important
Fast and safe road riding is different to track riding. On the road you position for vision and safety, on the track it's for speed. They're not mutually exclusive and there's crossover, like vision, but it's also very different
Just assume the OP, as he mentioned the track, the actual riding of the bike and technique, not road position etc was the question/problem.
So more practice on a motorbike, on a track, to practice position, cornering and general motorbike craft so it becomes second nature.
@Chew is it being more confident on a motorbike, or being more confident on the roads is the question?
https://revtothelimit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4588
I organise or help organise a trackday each year. This years is in the first weekend of September.
Over on the forum we also have 2 fully qualified road instructors.
https://revtothelimit.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=10
The commute is into central Bradford, so I get plenty of practice with drivers not paying attention, not looking when pulling out of junctions and lack of road sense.
Not saying thats perfect, but feel that part of my riding is as good as it could reasonably be.
Its more the open road.
Being more at one with the bike and feeling like I can unlock more of its potential (as I can in the car) In the car its 90% when the situation is right, but feel like i'm only getting 50% out of the bike.
Things like, body position, road position, cornering speed, power/braking etc..
Hoping to pick up a bit of tuition on those things, to unlock more of the potential of the bike.
In the car its 90% when the situation is right, but feel like i’m only getting 50% out of the bike.
I don't know what you ride, but In terms of performance and the bike's potential, I reckon if you're getting 50% of it on the road, you're doing very well. Modern bikes have such ludicrous levels of performance that the only place to really do anything other than scratch the surface of what they are capable of, is on a track. Adding junctions, street furniture, spilled diesel and distracted drivers into the mix when you are exploring the performance potential is a recipe for disaster imho.
Things like, body position, road position, cornering speed, power/braking etc.
These are definitely things that IAM, RoSPA etc will help with. Well maybe not body position so much, but definitely the others.
I found IAMS training really helped, like you I was a pretty confident commuter but wasn't so good at other stuff. I am hopelessly out of practice now....
Of the things you list a few hours on track or road with an experienced rider going over the basics would put you on the way. It’s finding that person or instructor. For the track side it’s easy head over to weeksys forum there’s a lot of us there with a lot of track and race experience and even if we’re not as quick as we were we still know how to. A Trackday in that respect is a fun social event too. I spent a session helping weeksy back in 03 and in 20 mins we’d took a good few seconds off his lap times.
Personally I’m not one for ride by numbers so picking the right method and instructor is paramount.
If you are going down the Police, IAM, RoSPA route then you should really have a look at Motorcycle Roadcraft, it boring, very very boring but they as instructors will base any instruction on techniques from Roadcraft. If you've at least read it and have some knowledge of it then you should be able to answer and ask questions rather than be instructed all the time.
To continue with the boring reading you could also spruce up on the new Highway Code.
I'm sure Kilo will concur but there was a time whilst on Advanced bike courses you were required to know and quote most sections of Roadcraft verbatim, and to quote paragraphs via the radio whilst riding!!
I’m sure Kilo will concur but there was a time whilst on Advanced bike courses you were required to know and quote most sections of Roadcraft verbatim
fortunately my bike course had just moved on from this, but my first car course up in Staffordshire- verbatim with a written test on it, 🙂 completely useless idea
Sounds like Weeksy has you covered.
I’d also recommend (as you have) some track days/training.
If you have a good bike and don’t want to bin it, then get yourself a ‘cheap’ track day bike to use which isn’t too expensive but handles well.
The commute is into central Bradford, so I get plenty of practice with drivers not paying attention, not looking when pulling out of junctions and lack of road sense.
I used to commute from Harrogate to Laisterdyke. Luckily I had a car and a motorbike - not a journey I'd like to complete on two wheels given the awful standard of driving in Bradford. Good luck and stay safe!
Good advice above and this year I am planning on booking myself onto a Bike Safe course run by the great team at North Yorkshire Police 🙂
Its all in the wrist.
I found riding in wet conditions and using primarily engine braking helped me to develop smooth cornering technique, and speed.
bit cheesy but still very practical
Can't recommend IAM highly enough. OK, so the strength of your local group will have a bearing on this (mine has a huge membership, dozens are very active, I hear of some clubs that can barely muster a monthly group ride!). You will learn loads, and once you've passed your test, will be able to go on the group rides as and when which is even more of a learning experience I have found (as well as a social one).
Yes, many of them are stuff old blokes who do nothing to abate the stereotype, but it's not all like that. There's even a handful of ladies, and a couple of under 40's in our group! 😂😉
IAM is definitely on my list of to-dos but I found - much like MTB riding - heading out for a day with more experienced riders does a lot to bring your riding on. My road motorbike is a touring supermoto so nothing batshit crazy but just keeping up with and following the lines of better riders has done wonders for me, as long as I made sure not to push so hard that I was concentrating too much to actually learn anything.
If you just want to get the knee down so you can look cool then track bike/track day is the way forward.
The problem with doing your test is that they only reallyteach you how to ride in urban/suburban areas (and on dual carriageway, sort of).
My motorcycling experience started young, there were a few trail bikes (DT250 & XT500 mainly) that me, my brothers and various friends used to dick around the farm tracks and woods (we lived in the country).
Which was fine until one day (aged 22) I took my brothers Suzuki GS750 (bored out to 860 with a Yosi racing kit) out for, err, a quick spin and binned it somewhere between 80 and 100 on a less than 5 degree right hander... 🤷🏼♀️
That put me off bikes for 26 years (never even looked at one) until one day I decided I do a DAS...
I wanted to buy a Tiger 800 but it was just outside my budget so I needed up with a V-Strom 650. That was a blessing in disguise as being a third less power it was a lot more forgiving. Scary enough to learn on but not scary fast...
In my first year I did 7.5k miles mostly as leisure rides/ride outs. I have a mate who is in IAM and is qualified to teach the instructors (or so he claims anyway). I probably did 3/4ers my mileage with him and learnt to follow his lines. As he was IAM he would invite me out on the club runs. We’d regularly do 150+ mile runs up to about 400 as a day trip (from Aberdeen, mostly across to the west and back on country roads).
The conscious things I learned from the runs were slowdown before the corner and keep the gas on around it (keeps the front up) and ‘positive’ steering. My mate gave me the IAM handbook (and he never actively instructed me, he did follow me at the start but I don’t recall any real feedback).
One IAM trip (to Malaig and Skye) the three of us who didn’t get pissed up in Malaig were coming back the Dornie to Fort Augustus route (through Kintail, my favourite motorcyling road) and I was getting a bit fed up slowing down for corners and blasting to catch my mate up, slowing for the next corner and.... and it was getting to the point I was starting to 50p them... so I ended up giving myself a stiff talking too ‘FFS, relax, let it flow or you’ll bin the next corner’ kind of thing. So I forced myself to relax and my cornering speed went up 5mph pretty much instantly and I pretty much ‘got it’. And managed to more or less keep up with my mate (we had a stick to under 90 as above is auto banning territory and we all had jobs dependent on ability to drive).
That allowed me to get to grips with the V-Strom and that gave me the confidence to (at least in my mind) really ride it as you needed to hustle it overtaking, etc. That took me about 5k. With probably one 250+ Mile run a fortnight once the weather was decent (April to end of Sept). I did find all the concentration required makes it pretty exhausting on a long run.
I did get the Police Roadcraft manual and read/tried to implement it when out.
When doing my DAS the instructor talked about reading the roadsigns and how they told you what was coming up (despite having been a car driver for almost 30 years by that point I didn’t really understand what he meant) and once I learned to read the them, used road positioning, positive steering (and hitting corners at the right speed, keeping the gas on all the way round) I felt I had it sufficiently under control for the bike to be the main limiting factor.
It took me another 2.5k to feel comfortable enough to trade up to the 1000 (and 50% more power) but it was a smooth transition and ‘keeping up’ no longer was an issue. I did miss the fun of hustling the 650 but the improved suspension, brakes, hydraulic clutch as well as the power to overtake when I wanted was compensation.
Sorry for the ramble but the main thing I’m trying to get at is pick a bike you can master first, ride with other, more experienced people and get some decent runs in. Of that means joining IAM then do that (I never did...).
Another vote for IAM.
I started doing mine late last summer and initially, it was exhausting.
I did a DAS 30 years ago having only ridden the training 125 for the preceding week - no other motorcycle experience. I bought a VFR750 on the day I passed and then learned to ride. Fast forward to last year and cue lots of changes, acronyms and talking (tuition). I found it quite tough relearning but if you choose to go IAM, there's little point in not embracing it fully and accepting 'their way' even if sometimes it might seem a bit picky.
It's definitely improved my observation even in the car and I'm looking forward to picking it up again in the Spring.
Another vote here for IAM. I did and took and failed my test (to slow through the twisty bits), but despite that, it has transformed my riding. I'm now much more confident and as a result of that a much quicker rider.
One day I'll join my local group and retake my test...
Can I just vote against IAM and to some extent the Keith code stuff, they are everything I don’t want from my motorcycling. But I know some people like to have a set of instructions to follow and it may help some less than natural riders or new riders etc. But nah it’s not for me despite owning a GS 🤣
Commuting on a motorbike means you're on the constant look out, for everything very single yard of the ride - this doesn't encourage balls-out riding. But it will keep you safe.
Whereas pushing-it requires you to take greater risks, and needs even more luck.
One thing that was quite common is the past was slowly moving up the power/cc range. I started on a 50, then an 80, an RD250E (still on L plates), 3 RD350LC's (last one an YPVS), 600, 750, 900, 1000 and then 2 1050's. I also raced when younger, just offroad and a few years of Moped/50 racing.
This progression taught me lots of things, including when it was safe to go quick (very quick) and what drifting/sliding tyres feel like (before you fall off).
For me, experience (ie riding in all weathers) and riding bikes where you can literally ring the throttle without it throwing you off (of going twice/triple the speed limit) gives the ability to ride safe & fast.
