[Closed] Most graduates in non-graduate jobs

I think the biggest problem is the assumption that *any* degree level qualification somehow gives you the aptitude to take on any role that needs a bit of intelligence and application.

I think the biggest problem is the assumption that *any* degree level qualification somehow gives you the aptitude to take on any role that needs a bit of intelligence and application.

So you can get a degree without intelligence and application?

I think Blair got it wrong of course. The 50% of school leavers going to univ looks to much like a number pulled out a hat than a number arrived at after considering the needs of industry and society for a supply of graduates.

I'm just glad my son went to univ in Scotland so paid no fees and has his student loan paid off now at age 27. And he is, I think, one of those in graduate level employment.

On the other hand the part time job I'm doing to top up my pension needs people skills along with basic numeracy and literacy and a bit of physical fitness. There are graduates doing it.

needs people skills along with basic numeracy and literacy

I know plenty of graduates who don't have these.

'So you can get a degree without intelligence and application?'

I did.

It's a bit of an odd report, that. Their definition of a graduate role is one that needs a degree... But outside of professional roles there's not that many jobs that require a degree, most jobs I've done have been non-graduate by this definition but that doesn't mean they're not appropriate for a graduate, or that having a graduate in the role isn't advantageous.

And once you're past first graduate roles etc the importance of a degree falls off in many industries and your track record takes over. (if you apply for my job, you need a degree. If you apply for the job one step up the ladder, you don't!) Also o'course just because a degree's not required for a post, doesn't mean it's not potentially valuable or adding productivity. Or salary 🙂 Lots of entrepreneurs with degrees who'd not qualify as a "graduate role". Basically it's much more complicated than this.

I'd definitely agree there's oversupply in some industries and it's just a given that some degrees have greater or lesser employability... You'll never have 100% of graduates in a graduate role, by these definitions. But I'm not sure this particular study stands up too well when it comes to quantifying that.

Degrees: like dropper posts. Even if you don't need one, that doesn't mean it's useless. But sometimes they're unreliable and expensive and... heavy? Yeah.

"50% of school leavers to be of undergraduate caliber" is a very different objective to "50% of school leavers to go to university".

The first objective is 100% where we need to go as a society to drive productivity and improve standards of living for all. The second objective without the first is just pissing money up the wall.

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[i]So you can get a degree without intelligence and application?[/i]

That's not what I said.

I said that the assumption that having a degree implied you had the "[i]aptitude [/i] for any job" was incorrect.

A good working knowledge of Middle English isn't necessarily going to cut the mustard if you're being asked to project manage a section of HS2 or whatever.

There's lot's of very bright people with degrees who struggle to open a box of cereal without spilling the contents, tbh.

Another point is in what time period? Jumping straight into a graduate role from uni is pretty rare and always has been. Many people have always done "non graduate roles" for a while before gettign their desired jobs. As other have said for most industreis how do you define a graduate job. I work in engineering / software an even though everyone here has a degree or higher I see no reason why you could not some in without, do some self suddy and some other sort courses and do the job.

There's lot's of very bright people with degrees who struggle to open a box of cereal without spilling the contents, tbh.

Have you got a camera in my kitchen?

There's lot's of very bright people with degrees who struggle to open a box of cereal without spilling the contents, tbh.

As my best mate says about his brother, who's got post-grad qualifications coming out of every orifice

"He could calculate how many beans were in a tin, but he couldn't tell you how to ****ing open it!" 😆

He works at the foreign office.

My wife doesn't have a degree, whereas I do, what I find is that there's a much finer range of jobs that suit me and my salary expectations. Whereas there is a greater range of jobs she can do, but at a lower pay level.

I'm grateful I went to uni and have as a result had jobs that have paid me well. I'm also glad I'm not doing it now and facing very large debts as a result of it.

For reference I did have c£14k debt to clear though, was good when repayments for that finished!

Mr Northwind nails it..

Don't assume that all of those graduates actually want a so called 'graduate job'

I certainly didn't have any aspirations to jump on that bandwagon but I'm still glad I went into further education for various reasons.

Not all who go to Uni are chasing that 'live to work' lifestyle that many graduate schemes require.

Firstly, 50% going to uni as a target predates Blair.

And 50% of jobs clearly don't need degrees, ergo, a lot of graduates won't get a graduate type job.

A lot of employers are happier to look at a bright, hard working non graduate these days, especially with apprenticeships getting up some steam.

The assumption I hate is that the point of going to university is to get a job. It shouldn't be. It should be to learn and spread knowledge.

Most jobs don't require a knowledge of biology or history, but do we begrudge teaching those subjects at school? Of course not, society has decided that it's useful for everyone to learn a bit of those subjects.

It should be the same for university. I'm very glad I went to uni in Scotland for free, and got to study a fascinating subject I loved instead of being streamlined towards a career path.

Mr Northwind nails it..

That's my experience. I did an MSc and ended up in a role that wasn't graduate specific but the skills and knowledge I developed made me an ideal candidate for the role.

Fast forward a few years, I'm now in a new job and my Graduate & Postgraduate degrees are irrelevant as the skills, knowledge and reputation I've built up has got me the job. It's a very good career path but not one that requires a degree.

Im surprised that this figure has only recently been banded around.

I think its been going on for 20 yrs or so that people have been coming out of university and not getting a 'graduate' job (whatever one may be)

I know when I graduated 20 yrs ago the big idea was that you came out of uni and got on a Company Graduate trainee scheme. I saw loads of people not getting on to these schemes.

Now its even worse, not only do you go to university and not get a job, but you get a massive debt for the privalidge too

The thing is that a lot of industries just started specifying that you needed a degree as a bare minimum just to get an interview. If you didn't have it on your CV, then it went straight in the bin.

Do you need a degree for the job I do? Do you hell! I colour things in for a living! But when I graduated (and its no different now) there were very few opportunities for you if you fancied it s a career but didn't have the necessary degree level qualification.

The irony of it is, that though my degree is very industry specific, I don't think it properly equipped me for a job in the industry at all. I leant more actual useful stuff in the first few months, in the (real world) job, than I'd learnt in the previous 3 years sat talking about it.

So you can't blame people for going to uni, and taking their chances when this is the case. Its the attitude of the HR departments that needs to change. They need to stop specifying degrees as a baseline for interview, and start looking at real world experience.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/learning-vs-earning-tony-blairs-determination-to-push-schoolleavers-into-further-education-has-been-exposed-as-a-flawed-policy-9722456.html

I always think it quite sad that a degree is only ever linked to future employment/earning potential, rather than a good education being a thing worth having in itself.

People seem to understand why you might blow 30k on a s****y new car but not why you might blow 30k because you would like to acquire a greater appreciation of medieval art.

'So you can get a degree without intelligence and application?'

If my Facebook feed is anything to go by then yes.

There seems to be a disconnect between aspiration and reality whereby we believe a degree is a ticket to happiness, a good career and social mobility but somehow also that those results can happen when graduates make up 50%ish of entries to the workforce.

I guess that's why employers for graduate schemes have a number of screening steps for applicants - there's such a number and variety of the 'quality' of candidates holding that 2:1 or 1st that there needs to be many rounds of QC.

Still, it does allow those who've gone to a naff uni but who show aptitude beyond academics to get through and get on.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/university-a-waste-of-time-according-to-bitter-people-2013082078800 ]University a waste of time say bitter people[/url]

Essentially the issue is that we don't have an industrial policy which supports the development of a industries which provide high skill, high margin, high pay.

This article really struct a chord with me:

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/25/dead-end-jobs-car-wash-regulation-casual-cheap-labour-britain-low-pay-trap ]To grasp the dead-end jobs boom head to the carwash[/url]

I barely remember hand car-washes as a child growing up in the 1980s / early 1990s, now they are everywhere. Basically the bad employers, who don't want to invest are allowed to under-cut good employers in a race to the bottom.

It spells low investment and therefore low productivity.

I'd second the difference between education and training. University is for educting people. That knowledge may or may not be needed in your furture jobs. Training is for vocational courses and employers.

I always think it quite sad that a degree is only ever linked to future employment/earning potential, rather than a good education being a thing worth having in itself.

It's only now for the 25% of the country going to Uni and getting shoddy degrees that it matters so much because going to Uni now costs ca £60K so value for money becomes quite relevant.

So Mr Blair got it wrong then?

After Iraq you're surprised?

This article really struct a chord with me:

To grasp the dead-end jobs boom head to the carwash

That should really be "To grasp the money laundering / exploitation boom, head to the car wash"

Think about it how many guys wash how many cars an hour at £3 a time. There isn't enough money to pay wages in the business.

So, you're left with a few options of how it works - either you're dealing with at best an explotation scenario where people are paid less than minimum wage, or at worst they are coerced and in a slavery situation. Or, a business which generates a large volume of cash payments is an excellent place to launder money.

The only thing that surprises me is that nobody seems to think about how it works.. That the Guardian missed it too doesn't surprise me though 😀

a business which generates a large volume of cash payments is an excellent place to launder money.

Exhibit 1: Breaking Bad.

jam bo - Member

needs people skills along with basic numeracy and literacy

I know plenty of graduates who don't have these.

Looks around the office.... hmmmmmm I think you have a point there.

Most of what you write Northwind I agree with however this

And once you're past first graduate roles etc the importance of a degree falls off in many industries and your track record takes over.

isn't true

is true in the types of companies you would want to work for...

That's my experience. I did an MSc and ended up in a role that wasn't graduate specific but the skills and knowledge I developed made me an ideal candidate for the role

Ph.D
2 x 2yr postdoc research posts, one at Oxford.
Now a copper 🙄

TurnerGuy - Member

isn't true

is true in the types of companies you would want to work for...

Isn't strictly true.

Loads of companies only ask for basic level of education, the rest is upto you.

I did say "in many industries", it's not universal.

Personally I think we send far too many people to university when they (and the economy) would be much better off if they did vocational courses rather than a completely pointless academic qualification (of dubious standard). If you don't get a degree premium in your pay packet, you probably would have been better advised to do something else.

I always think it quite sad that a degree is only ever linked to future employment/earning potential, rather than a good education being a thing worth having in itself.

well, this

but, sadly, someone's got to pay for the education

which inevitably means that

Of course not, society has decided that it's useful for everyone to learn a bit of those subjects.

It should be the same for university.

is a bit difficult to achieve

and here we are, with crap loads of people going to university to learn a lot about one subject and then not ending up with a shiny job to pay the fees back with, because the shiny job story turned out to be a crock of poo and the only thing available was mcdonalds.

so I think, after careful consideration, although in principle I'd love anyone who wanted (and was able to benefit from it) to go on through college & university level education for free, the reality doesn't appear to be quite working out

and something else, where's the list of subjects that society considers it OK to go on and learn a lot about?

What would it include?

biology?
history?
management?
klingon?
madonna studies?
brewing and distilling?
surfing?

I don't know, because that list probably depends on whether you think the person receiving a monkey load of education should then go on to contribute "more" to society on the back of it. If you don't think they should, then anything could be on it. I guess.

We ALWAYS appear in lists of bullshit degrees 😆 Foundation degree in heavy metal, Harry Potter studies, Horse Whispering... then Brewing and Distilling. It's a proper serious science degree! (and they're usually not as drunk as the actuarial students)

Appropriate for the thread though- it has a phenomenal employability rate, graduates are in huge demand, but very few of those jobs will be "graduate" by the standards of that report. Many grads go on to found their own businesses, like Brewdog and Stewarts frinstance. And because there's so few brewing/distilling graduates in the workforce, the industry can't insist on hiring graduates so most posts wouldn't fulfil the "need a degree" requirement.

So- massively useful, massively employable, "Not a proper graduate job", boo.

somewhatslightlydazed - Member
I always think it quite sad that a degree is only ever linked to future employment/earning potential, rather than a good education being a thing worth having in itself.

People seem to understand why you might blow 30k on a s****y new car but not why you might blow 30k because you would like to acquire a greater appreciation of medieval art.

I decided to go to Uni for exactly that reason 🙂 I earn less now than what I did before I did my degree, but I'd like to think I'm a better person for having done it. My new profession is certainly more challenging and I feel like it's taken me places and that I've done things I never would have even considered before.

It cost me £23k to go + £160k in lost earnings. I still think it was worth it.

so I think, after careful consideration, although in principle I'd love anyone who wanted (and was able to benefit from it) to go on through college & university level education for free, the reality doesn't appear to be quite working out

I tend to agree, it would be great if we could have fewer people who are actually academically disposed going to do proper subjects and good universities for free - which is happening with PhD funding at the moment with the DTPs. But I'm not sure how you'd do that fairly.

They're not on the dole for 3/4 years, that's the objective.

And yet in engineering good quality graduates are like rocking horse poo.

Well maybe not quite that rare, but not far off.

because the pay is shite.

^Exactly. Most people I know who did my course and simlar went into finance!

MoreCashThanDash - Member

Firstly, 50% going to uni as a target predates Blair.

Really? Any source?

And yet in engineering good quality graduates are like rocking horse poo

How would you rate the employ-ability prospects of a slightly older bloke with Foundation Degree in mech eng, v good grades and lots of practical experience?

If you don't get a degree premium in your pay packet, you probably would have been better advised to do something else.

Why? I'm 5 years out of one of the best uni in Scotland, with a 2:1, and earn less than 25k. But going to uni was invaluable for the experiences and contacts I made. Money isn't everything - I'm happy with what I've achieved professionally since and my parents are proud too. I don't need the pay packet to prove my achievements...

I don't think uni is for everyone but as a few have said, uni is for learning not necessarily to bolster future financial gain.

People are put off engineering because you actually have to knuckle down and do some work. I was doing over 30 hrs of lectures a week with the same amount of work outside of lectures, and in my first year it was 42 hrs. That was more hours of lectures in one year than a lot of my mates were doing over the full 3 years of their courses. University was just a 3 year pi$$ up for them - so maybe the answer for some degrees regarding the cost to students is to condense some 3 year degrees into 1 or 2 years.

Also students are being sold a pup regarding expectations of salary as soon as they come out of uni. 20yrs ago when I left uni and stated on a grad training scheme my pay was crap - 20yrs on it's half decent, but grads coming into the company these days expect to walk straight into a senior managers position. I have no idea where they are getting this level of expectation from, or that they are even capable to do a job of that level in a large organisation.

Also a lot of degrees in uni's these days offer very little value to society and industry. A lot of degrees are there to attract some people who normally wouldn't go to do the traditional subjects to earn money for the universities rather than their usefulness to industry.

Also my school mates, most of whom didn't go to uni, are all in a similar situation to me regarding job and salary, so a degree might help you get that first job, but after that it's all about experience, delivery and performance.

A degree as an automatic pass to a good job is a myth and the last 15yrs or so where graduate numbers have rocketed has only served to devalue the qualification - supply and demand innit - the more graduates there are out there on offer to industry, the lower their value and therefore the salary level.

There seemed too many grads when I was a student in the early 90s, I decided to do an MSc as wanted to differentiate myself. Not sure how much that helped in the end but it was funded and I got a good job. These days I see more Indians than Brits on my IT projects so shortage there it seems.

wobbliscott - Member

People are put off engineering because you actually have to knuckle down and do some work.

It's not so simple. The biggest problem with engineering is that kids lose interest in the necessary subject areas, before they really find out what they're for. Intermediate maths at high school is, basically, dull as **** and generally pretty unapplied too. So kids lose interest and both underperform, and choose not to progress, and engineering closes as a (straightforward *) option. It's a pretty vicious combination, maths is both hard to inspire people with, and yet completely essential for some areas of further study.

Course, it's possible to return to maths after losing interest, but the UK mostly lays out simple paths to uni and anything that takes kids off that is a harder sell.

This, incidentally, is one of these things where the problem's really obvious but nobody really knows what the solution is.

(* there's plenty of ways to get back into it, if you want- but the UK in general puts too much focus on the simple school-uni progression, and routes outside that are both poorly understood, and often stigmatised. "What are you doing at uni" "Actually I'm doing a HND..." "Couldn't get into uni, dur")

And yet in engineering good quality graduates are like rocking horse poo

because the pay is shite.

Not in Electronics / SW in the South East. You'd easily earn 2x UK average with a few year experience.

Some degrees seem to be in such Mickey Mouse subjects I doubt much of value is learned for the 30k debt .Craft ,surfing and sport to name a few

There was an MSc in brewing when I went through UCAS nearly 40 years ago, so it's not new.

Now, if 50% of school leavers go on to do a degree and pay fees, they directly support the universities without government (the general public) having to cough up. If it's necessary to come up with some shitty courses or drop the entrance requirements well so be it. That's my take on the political thinking behind it anyway.

Of course the fact that many student loans will never be repaid does conversely add to the burden on the exchequer.

MSc in brewing

Which I would hope would turn out to effectively be a Conversion Course to Chemical and Process Engineering, for that is what brewing is.

Thank heavens for universities. Coming from a sheep farm high in the welsh hills I am not sure if I would have ever lost my virginity to a proper female or discovered drugs and alcohol had I not got a place in uni 30 years ago 🙂

The fact that I went on to get a PhD and yet somehow still ended up running a sheep farm in the welsh hills has nothing to do anything.

Which I would hope would turn out to effectively be a Conversion Course to Chemical and Process Engineering, for that is what brewing is.

Thank heavens for universities. Coming from a sheep farm high in the welsh hills I am not sure if I would have ever lost my virginity to a proper female or discovered drugs and alcohol had I not got a place in uni 30 years ago

The fact that I went on to get a PhD and yet somehow still ended up running a sheep farm in the welsh hills has nothing to do anything

sounds like that 'year out' that mormans have 😉

[i]It cost me £23k to go + £160k in lost earnings. I still think it was worth it. [/i]

Nice that you were in a position to afford it and you're Karma'd up 🙂

Me - MSc in Environmental Planning. Now drive a black cab a couple of days a week.

I am indeed living the dream.

The best brewers these days very probably have no qualifications in brewing or chemistry.

Probably not, but if it's bigger than homebrew it'll be a batch process plant, whatever you'd like it to be 😉

Which I would hope would turn out to effectively be a Conversion Course to Chemical and Process Engineering, for that is what brewing is.

Incidentally, there was a really interesting interview with [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Palmer_(scientist) ]Professor Geoff Palmer[/url] on The Life Scientific the other week.

Leegee - drop me a line - your email rejected.

engineering/chemistry, science degrees are hard, things have to work or if they dont , you need to find out or know why.

Where as english, media studies, philosophy etc are just your interpretation of current thinking so easier to do and could be done as night classes part time.

Some subjects could be condensed into 2 years, I'm sure.
I did biochemistry at Manchester, and my week was full of lectures and lab sessions, whereas for some subjects, the students had very little in their timetables. I appreciate that the rest of the time was intended for individual study, but in practice I saw very little evidence of that.

I don't like this condence into 2 year lark. HND is 2 years, call it that. I know quite a few engineers with HNDs and it seems unfair that they would do 2 years (full time) and get a HND were as someone else would do 2 years and get a "degree".

vickypea - Member

Some subjects could be condensed into 2 years, I'm sure.

Chap on R4 yesterday, he was/is a University chancellor (or something), said '2 year degrees were offered, no-one applied to do them'.

and why would they?

(an 18yr old going off to uni isn't in a rush to get stuck into 40+ years of desk-jockey drudgery)

Well that's a fair point, but depends who is going to pay for all these students on courses that allow them to sit around drinking tea all day.

Let them. When they are sittign around drinking tea that subsidises the subjects that require more teaching and equipment.

30 (?) years ago, 5% (?) of people went to Uni, and we even [u]gave[/u] them money to do so.

how did we pay for that?

I went back to my faculty about 6 years after I'd graduated and as a result of the expansion they'd already dropped the last year of my BEng degree and now only covered years 1 & 2 of my degree course. The first year was spent covering what used to be called A level maths and physics....

I suspect they're now down to just covering the 1st year of my degree as that was 15 years ago.

30 (?) years ago, 5% (?) of people went to Uni, and we even gave them money to do so. how did we pay for that?

Yeah but life was different then; the internet and computers were stuck in the science/engineering departments. Mobile phones didn't exist and students were happy to live in halls with shared baths, 3 amp sockets and school dinner catering.

What dragon said. I lived in a flat of 8 students with 2 toilets and one bath between us. We didn't have mobile phones or laptops. Nowadays, everyone wants an ensuite bathroom.

dragon & vickypea + 1,
can I add that we lived opposite a mass murderer too
(you tell the kids of today and they don't believe you)

My student existence also bore a worryingly close resemblance to an episode of the Young Ones, and nothing remotely like [url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/student-to-get-valuable-life-experience-from-moving-to-purpose-built-luxury-apartment-20150817101164 ]this[/url] 🙂

Students don't live in luxury apartments, just the Chinese ones.

The only difference between now and 30 years ago is that a room now... that hasn't been renovated since the 70's and in a past life has been used to house room sharing/bunking smack addict prostitutes costs as much as a house if it's located near to a half decent university.

In my second year we lived in a house with no central heating and all the gas fires were condemned!

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br />
Even McDonalds have a graduate training scheme nowadays binnners which includes getting your hands dirty on the shopfloor 🙂
http://www.savethestudent.org/graduate-schemes/mcdonalds.html
And Greggs!
https://www.greggsfamily.co.uk/management-and-office/profiles/katie-management-trainee

I can assure you that student accommodation is as crap as it's always been.

In many cases, it the [i]same[/i] accommodation that you lot stayed in, unchanged, not even the beds.

Well, I will find out the truth in a few weeks' time as my son is about to go to university!