[Closed] More Religion on the Beeb

Religion sometimes seems to think it has special privilege here. It does not.

😯

So, I trust that all the logical , right thinking scientific atheists out there will be completely eschewing any trappings of Christmas, be they Christian, Pagan, Roman or otherwise this year?

Pretty much TBH, but not through choice.

For most people, I'd hazard that Christmas is Christmas simply [i]because it's Christmas.[/i] The "real meaning of Christmas" in the 21st Century is to spend quality time with family and friends and generally be nice to each other.

Much the same as the 5th of November, I doubt that many people gather round on Bonfire Night to celebrate the thwarting of a plot to blow up Parliament (frankly at the moment I'm starting to think that might not have been a bad thing), rather that it's great fun to burn shit and terrify animals.

Meanwhile, my imaginary friend is providing mince pies, Bond films and an Xbox.

Which is nice.

It really is, I had to buy mine.

Is buying Xboxes Christian or Pagan? I forget. (-:

😯

Well, you can't argue with that.

So, I trust that all the logical , right thinking scientific atheists out there will be completely eschewing any trappings of Christmas, be they Christian, Pagan, Roman or otherwise this year?

Can't let yourselves get drawn into any superstitious hocus pocus can you?

You should instead celebrate the winter solstice by lighting a single electric bulb and leaning away from it a 13 degree angle. It's the logical thing to do.

Meanwhile, my imaginary friend is providing mince pies, Bond films and an Xbox.

Which is nice

Well, you can't argue with that.

CtrlC

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Repeat.

now you have mastered that you can work on the something meaningful to say aspect of debate 😉

You know me better than that, Junky!

Happy Christmas, you miserable old fart! 🙂

Same to you, its must better when you have kids, isn't it.

there is no debate to be had. Woppit's stance and his technique is just the raw truth.

This bit suggests to me that.you still don't understand what I'm trying to say.

He may well be right about God. But there's a nice way of saying it, and a shitty way.

I'm saying don't be an arsehole about it, basically.

The other thing I am saying is that religion is not usually the reason for conflict, it's just another us/them axis.

If you want a considered discussion of this, we can have one. I'd welcome it if I felt like it'd be interesting, informative and good natured. You can refer to one of the previous threads if you like, we've done this before.

Forget Brexit and Trump the beeb has decided it needs to increase spending and coverage of old religous cults.

Proof if needed that the organisation is run by fruitcakes.

How do I opt out?

This was the opening post in case anyone’s forgotten. It’s hardly going to inspire respectful debate is it?

Seems to me it’s simple seeking confirmation and anyone in disagreement is a fruitcake who can go away jerkily

Mmmmm........fruitcake

Commitment to not believing? I’m an Aethiest and it has taken precisely zero commitment.

I was committed to a psychiatric ward in my late teens, messiah complex.

All better now though my child

who can go away jerkily

Moving in mysterious ways?

Either that or a lack of trust in the swear filter

So I open my door to my enemies
And I ask could we wipe the slate clean ?
But they tell me to please go **** myself
You know you just can't win ...

"Lost For Words" Pink Floyd.
Merry Christmas everyone !

I see the accepting of others beliefs has not got too far.

To all those 'active' atheists here;

What are you hoping to achieve by telling people their belief system is stupid and they are idiots?
Do you think that is an effective way of doing it?

Can't let yourselves get drawn into any superstitious hocus pocus can you?

What are you hoping to achieve by telling people their belief system is stupid and they are idiots?

If it weren't for the combined efforts of Cougar, Woppit and Dawkins (CWD), we would be slaughtering each others' children over the correct way to worship a non-existent flying spaghetti monster.
And for all the haters, I'm sure CWD would rather be spending time elsewhere, rather than engaging in non-stop public service on internet forums, shining the light of enlightenment rationality into the darkness of barbarian superstition.
Or maybe not.

"What are you hoping to achieve by telling people their belief system is stupid ?"
Get them to realise their private belief system is no basis for structuring public life, legislation, or education,
" and they are idiots?"
i try to avoid calling people idiots on religious topics unless they seek to suggest that equal marriage rights are wrong, or creationism or intelligent design is valid . Or that one Abrahamic belief system is inherently more evil than any other
"Do you think that is an effective way of doing it?"
Yep it creates the debate.

What are you hoping to achieve by telling people their belief system is stupid and they are idiots?
Do you think that is an effective way of doing it?

so long as their beliefs don't affect my life I don't care who they believe created the universe. As soon as religious beliefs are given air time to promote their nonsense I object.

As soon as religious beliefs are given air time to promote their nonsense I object.

Why? To ‘them’ it’s not nonsense, obviously.

Out of interest when were you last forced to watch a religious programme on tv?

Why? To ‘them’ it’s not nonsense, obviously.

Out of interest when were you last forced to watch a religious programme on tv?

doesn't matter that it isn't nonsense to them. Like I said I don't care if they believe in sky fairies. Just because billions of people believe in a deity doesn't give it any more weight than if only 1 person did.

not talking about being forced to watch a TV program.

The PM tells everyone to be proud of their Christian heritage, there are 26 bishops in the house of lords at all times. At one point that meant there were 26 white men* sitting in the house of lords purely because they were a bishop in the church of England.

*there are female bishops now obviously

Look on the bright side, newspeak comes with music today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09jr627

Tuneful propaganda - enjoy

Out of interest when were you last forced to watch a religious programme on tv?

I do hope anyone who's anti religion isn't celebrating Christmas at all. Wouldn't want to be hypocrites after all 😉

(Blah blah pagan festival blah blah)

Or married.

Or married

Indeed

I think the big takeaway here is that we should ALL be respectful of others' beliefs and ALL use respectful language when referring to the beliefs and cultures of others.

I'm not a fan of plenty of things in life that others are, but I'd never be so arrogant as to think it's ok to be rude about those things.

You can respectfully disagree, you can challenge logically, but the second you start having to try and use offensive (and remember offence is in the eye of the recipient, not the person making the statement) terms and language, you let yourself down.

In the spirit of the festive period, maybe let's all try and be more tolerant, respectful and less combative in the language we use. There's no "winners" in an internet argument, only losers.

Woppit is definitely a bit shouty but he is up against the insidiousness of organized religion with its hooks into the state and broadcasting so there's little wonder he needs to shout to be heard.

As for the BBC, that's just typical of it. Amongst the debates of whether it's right or left wing folk are losing sight of the fact that it's promoting an Establishment viewpoint.

How odd?

They will promoting constitutional monarchies next. What is it about 15:00? Bloody beeb - doesn’t Auntie know it’s place?

BoardinBob - Member

I do hope anyone who's anti religion isn't celebrating Christmas at all. Wouldn't want to be hypocrites after all

the only people that celebrate Christmas are Christians.

slackalice - Member

Or married

only if you get married in a church. Being married is just a legal contract these days

married? the link between the church and marriage is a fairly recent invention and very much on the wane now. 25th dec or there abouts, as has been said is a very logical and natural festival point regardless of its Pagan Mythraic and sun worship origins and the Christian pretence its baby jesus birthday.

It's pig out and spoil your family day.

I'm married but didn't go to a church as I'm not religious.

Of course if we ban religion people will stop killing each other!

Look at the actions of the Nazis, Stalin and the Khmer Rouge for an excellent example of humanity releasing itself from the shackles of religious dogma.

🙄

As per everyone else, Wheaton's Law applies. Season of goodwill and all.

(this is why I have no more to do with the Humanist Society, one zealot is as bad as another)

Of course if we ban religion people will stop killing each other!

no one wants to ban religion and people kill each other over a load of things other than which sky fairy* they think created the universe.

*not all deities live in the sky

andyrm - Member

I think the big takeaway here is that we should ALL be respectful of others' beliefs and ALL use respectful language when referring to the beliefs and cultures of others.

Nope. You are entitled to your beliefs, but your beliefs are not entitled to respect. If something claims to be valid it should welcome the most robust criticism possible, and we should assess it based on how it withstands that scrutiny. To presume or infer respect is to imply the idea is deserving of respect and therefore has some validity.

squirrelking - Member

Of course if we ban religion people will stop killing each other!

Look at the actions of the Nazis, Stalin and the Khmer Rouge for an excellent example of humanity releasing itself from the shackles of religious dogma.

It wasn't the absence of a belief in a celestial deity that compelled the Nazis or Communists to kill people.

Perhaps they are just irritated at the religious telling them how they should be thinking and what they should be learning?

I am 50 years old and have never, not once, had any religious people telling me what I should be thinking or learning. Are you saying atheists have and that has what made them so intolerant ?

Its curious you didnt criticise some of the 'active' religious types for their behaviour as well?

Happy to criticise their behaviour too if you can point me to the relevant thread, which one is it?

If it weren't for the combined efforts of Cougar, Woppit and Dawkins (CWD)

I'm kind of offended that you tar me with the same brush as the other two there TBH.

I've made the mistake of trying to drink a can of Red Stripe when I'm not already drunk.
(And of posting to the wrong thread).

I am 50 years old and have never, not once, had any religious people telling me what I should be thinking or learning. Are you saying atheists have and that has what made them so intolerant ?

51 year old here, and hell yes I [b]have[/b] been told what I should be thinking or learning.

I can still remember the effing apostles creed from when I was a kid. I've lost "friends" after coming out because it was "against god" and the stigma from the crap taught to me while I was younger did not help one iota. We have men in frocks in the house of lords choosing our laws and I can think of at least four churches (one or two bizarre, what is the Spritualists all about?) with messages about turning to god within walking distance.

Happy to see you managed to get away though.

no one wants to ban religion and people kill each other over a load of things other than which sky fairy* they think created the universe.

*not all deities live in the sky

It wasn't the absence of a belief in a celestial deity that compelled the Nazis or Communists to kill people.

Well done for getting my entire point. The reason I was making that point though was because of this tired old trope:

We've been there on war and the religious justifications and the part religious dogma plays in recruiting people to fight wars before - it's a chicken before the egg argument. We often say the AK47 is the most lethal weapon ever devised by man, but a man is required to use an AK47 and in most cases the man who does operate it is doing so after being whipped up to fight for religious reasons. So religion as a weapon to recruit the AK47 operators is a far more dangerous and lethal weapon.

I'd argue that fanaticism is a greater weapon than either. That can come in any flavour you like be it nationalist, political, religious or otherwise. Religion may well have been used as an excuse in many wars but without it another would have been just as easily found. Same for using it as a tool to control people. People have a herd mentality, like it or not, and blaming religion for the worlds ills is just a lazy justification for your own prejudices.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things done at institutional levels which are wide open to scrutiny and criticism but to lay that at the door of all religion is analogous to blaming the guy who owns the corner shop for the excesses and corruption of global capitalism.

Nope. You are entitled to your beliefs, but your beliefs are not entitled to respect.

So you can mock peoples beliefs without being disrespectful to those who hold them? How do you square that away exactly? Because few here seem to be interested in civilised conversation and instead just mock.

And for the record, they're not my beliefs either.

People have a herd mentality, like it or not, and blaming religion for the worlds ills is just a lazy justification for your own prejudices.

This is essentially "guns don't kill people, other people do" isn't it. Guns do make it so much easier though. But you're right, at the end of the day it's an excuse, if religion didn't exist we'd find other means of achieving the same ends.

Nope. You are entitled to your beliefs, but your beliefs are not entitled to respect.

So you can mock peoples beliefs without being disrespectful to those who hold them?

Someone's "beliefs" don't automatically demand respect, even if they really really believe them quite a lot. Someone believes that all gay people are evil and need curing, is that a belief that we should just accept and respect?

However, mocking people's beliefs can be disrespectful and thus not a particularly nice thing to do. And of course, people in turn have the right not to be very nice if they choose. This is essentially what Molgrips was getting at I think.

You know, if Christmas was more about what the birth of Jesus is supposed to mean, or even the spirit of the winter solstice it subsumed then maybe everyone would be a little less stressed and a bit happier in general.

No wonder people get depressed, if you don’t have faith then relaxing, and I mean genuinely relaxing,for a few days with friends and family surely must be better than the crap we have now. Even Christmas dinner has become an overly complicated nigellesque nightmare.

And that goes equally for both sides, I see plenty of churchgoers who attend regularly yet get swallowed up in the consumerist side, I mean it’s almost impossible not to

2 mins - R4

(Excuse the religious and elitist bit and it might be enjoyable 😉 )

So you can mock peoples beliefs without being disrespectful to those who hold them? How do you square that away exactly? Because few here seem to be interested in civilised conversation and instead just mock

I wouldn't use disrespectful as that implies there is respect in the first place. If you are going to believe in nonsense then you really shouldn't be shocked when the piss gets ripped. This is of course if the conversation is on religion. I don't go up to my relatives and randomly call them insane, stupid or ignorant.

I wouldn't use disrespectful as that implies there is respect in the first place. I

🙄

King’s College brilliant - Xmas spirit well and truly alive.

Uplifting finish. Wonderful 90 mins

I wouldn't use disrespectful as that implies there is respect in the first place. If you are going to believe in nonsense then you really shouldn't be shocked when the piss gets ripped. This is of course if the conversation is on religion. I don't go up to my relatives and randomly call them insane, stupid or ignorant.

You do know it's possible to say "I don't share your beliefs but I respect your freedom to have them" don't you? There's no need to be rude and offensive in the delivery of the message.

I think that's the issue here - you don't have to agree with or even respect a belief structure, but that doesn't make it ok to behave like a dick towards people. Just be polite. There's no need to try and shout over them or offend them into submission.

Live and let live.

^^ this

Anti-religious views are frequently pushed here and aggressively so

There was a very interesting interview with Tim Farron recently, he made it quite clear atheism was bot a neutral stance amd was often simply a front for anti-establishment views

How does Tim Farron who is neither an atheist nor a big thinker get to define what atheism is ?

"Well look, atheism is not the absence of belief, it is a belief in absence and therefore the absence of common values. It’s a belief in there being no unifying truth. But if there is no unifying truth then, by its own standard, the belief that there is no unifying truth must also be bogus. If you declare that there is no unifying truth then it stands to reason that this declaration isn’t true either. Ergo, atheism doesn’t exist. And I refuse to believe in something that doesn’t exist." Tim Farron, not exactly lucid and not even getting the basics right.

There's no need to be rude and offensive in the delivery of the message

you mean like tell them they will burn in hell for not agreeing with me and following my rules ?

Did a religious nutter tell you this? You should have chinned them.

I'd hazard a guess that 99.999999999999% of people of faith, religious belief or whatever you want to call it don't believe in or advocate that bit. It's an ancient thing, likely added in for social control in distant past times. It's got no place in faith in the modern world and saddens me if some nutcases still say shit like that in the name of faith.

But as always, one nutter's bad actions don't make it ok to be a dick to everyone else who you might think are of similar faith to said nutter.

Junkyard, when was the last time any reasonable person said anything like that to you? In all my years I have literally never heard anyone say anything like that in front of me. Maybe the odd loony on TV but isnt that where you tend to find them?

I know youre older than me (34) and my question wasn't answered the last time I asked it, is your attitude towards religion a product of some old school west coast fire and brimstone preaching or something you picked up over time? Genuinely interested as its an attitude I've seen both from posters on here from the area and people I know.

is your attitude towards religion a product of some old school west coast fire and brimstone preaching or something you picked up over time?

The Bible is a manual to save your soul whilst everyone is more skilled in the art of persuasion than to say that to you the point of the religion is to save your soul front eternal damnation.

The next bit is where folk say no its not what its about, i advise them to read the book, they say i dont get it, Molly chips in we repeat for a bit etc

* the full disclosure - religious primary school considered getting confirmed did church boys =brigade etc, dabbled in other when older- even went to a mormon church for about 6 months and found eastern ones too.Did some theology at uni. I am not a practising budhist but i do many of things a practising Buddhist would do but i dont expect enlightenment or to escape the wheel of life [ as i dont believe it]. Many religious friends including an RE teacher but they know what i think.All lovely people [ bar their taste in friends] Did pray for one recently who asked me to when diagnosed with a brain tumour. To me if it had no part in my life or wider society I would STFU , it should be a private belief, like my veganism, and not be forced on to others.
IMHO the abrhamaic faiths are detestable for the morals within are poor and the believers dont really do what it says because the morals within are so poor. I would not worship that god if it was real. YOU are free to use the information here to do a profile 😉

How does Tim Farron who is neither an atheist nor a big thinker get to define what atheism is ?

Freedom of speech. Thankfully.

I prefer the Oxford Dictionary definition:

[b]atheism[/b]

NOUN

mass noun
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Origin
Late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.

That was easy. As an atheist myself I do concur. Sorry Tim.

Christmas party on my house tonight.., plenty of food, drink & banter. Before the end we all sang Christmas carols. Christians, agnostics and atheists together. All thought it was a wonderful evening.

although, if you believe everything in here the Christians were privately condemning the atheists to eternal damnation, whilst the atheists were angsting over the poor children who believe the nativity story.

Midnight mass is on bbc1 soon. Try not to have nightmares

Happy Christmas all

Junkyard, thanks that explains things a lot. Quite a contrast with my RE which seemed to be taught by someone who was more concerned with whether we understood religions (and philosophy) than whether we believed in it or not. He was (I think) an army Chaplain so that would probably explain that one. Interesting you take your own thing from Buddhism, I think we all take from what suits or rather what aligns with our values. Most religions have fairly decent values that reflect society, where it goes wrong is when people stop treating scriptures as rough guides to being a better person and start using them to condemn others or worse, take them literally. You can agree with that or not, as I said they're not my beliefs, I just dont know why I should disrespect someone because they have difering opinions to my own.

Anyway, enjoy your excesses of tomorrow, I'll be keeping the lights on 😛

Most religions have fairly decent values that reflect society, where it goes wrong is when people stop treating scriptures as rough guides to being a better person and start using them to condemn others or worse, take them literally. You can agree with that or not, as I said they're not my beliefs, I just dont know why I should disrespect someone because they have difering opinions to my own.

Me, I’m Pantheistic Humanist,

Best wishes and peace to all on STW

Beautiful service this morning

Merry Christmas everyone

Happy birthday Jesus

(From an atheist)

Happy birthday Jesus

or not...

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/articles/when-was-jesus-really-born.aspx

There were 15 people around our Christmas table this afternoon: one practicing Catholic, four practicing Anglicans (one a priest, one licensed to preach), at least three (probably ten) atheists, two lesbians, three under 16, four over 60, four married couples, one 'spinster', two vegetarians, one chemo patient, all friends/family. (Some overlaps there, obviously.)

Plus a Labrador, a greyhound, and a border terrier.

Food, wine, laughter, a little bit of grumpiness, a lot of love. What Christmas is all about.