Pay teachers more money, reduce class sizes, decrease amount of school holidays and extend school day with extra curricular activities.
That should help solve a few social and economical issues with this country.

If I ever want to hear my sister (she's a teacher) head off on a rant that would make STWers proud, I just drop his name into a conversation. 😀

Thing is, is there anything he could do that would surprise us any more?

[img] [/img]

How will it solve social and economic problems? Reducing class sizes would be sufficient to improve education. The public schools dont seem to worry about longer holidays.

Mp's don't worry about their long summer holidays, maybe they want the beach all to themselves?

Having had kids in school for the past 6 yrs I can honestly say class size and teachers not up to the job are the two biggest problems, not the length of holidays. Daughter basically had a wasted yr last year in a class of 34 with a teacher permanently on and off sick. However this yr (her last yr at primary, so a more important year) smaller class size loads of extra work at home and a good teacher has improved her a lot. Same thing with laddo now who's 3 yrs younger and in a big class with split teaching, one teacher is great the other is rubbish!

Longer working days would make things easier for parents as would shorter holidays. I guess he's appealing to this rather than any real benefit in education. It also appeals to those who follow the idea that teachers are working short hours for the money paid.

My (private) school actually[*] had longer holidays than the state ones nearby.

What really needs to be done is nothing. If we stopped changing the education system every 5 years it might give those involved more of a chance to teach rather than implement the latest fad.

Public schools probably have a longer school day?

But does he not have a point. Teachers are a particularly whiney bunch - not dissimilar to how the miners were back in the 80s. They have to put up with the dregs of society and their spawn and it's not a job that I would want to do . And BTW I come from a family of teachers ...
They DO get long holidays, they do get good pensions. I have no idea what the salary of a teacher is but 30 K - so above average and 13 weeks vacation time?

Parenting standards in the UK are rubbish, so teachers are getting blamed for many facets of child rearing that their idle , ****less parents seems to think that it not their responsibility ( morals, discipline, cooking, washing, financial skills etc).

But with strong unions, many professional practises are back in the 70s. Ofstead are not great, granted - but pay for performance has been with me since 1986. I see very little tranparency with this in teaching. I can can be sacked easily, and I get 5 weeks holiday a year.

So Gove is trying to reform, it has to reform because UK education is not as good as everyones eems to think it is ( just like the NHS, we seem to assume we are beating the world. Trust me, we are not!. But he is preaching to a smug bunch of luddites. It will get bloody.

Teaching - you are meant to be preparing the way to the future. How about doing that with you terms and condition? Help pave the pathway forwards.

Public schools probably have a longer school day?

maybe but how much is sat down lessons? State schools dont have the resources to provide all the extra curricular stuff they do.

those who follow the idea that teachers are working short hours for the money paid.

Imagine that.

I have no idea what the salary of a teacher is but 30 K - so above average and 13 weeks vacation time?

Even accpepting that figure, which by your own admission is pulled from nowhere, is that actually a high salary for a graduate profession?

...granted - but pay for performance has been with me since 1986. I see very little tranparency with this in teaching

Well if you can come up with a good metric that actually measures the teachers (and not the pupils!) performance I'd like to here it

They might be on 30K+ but every week Mrs Ming works 60+ hours, she gets maybe one day off at the weekend. She is not alone, every other teacher in her school does the same. So on a £/hr basis it sucks.

She has to put up with lazy and aggressive parents and continual changes to working practices that they struggle to implement before the next government changes tack completely.

I get my wife back for 2 weeks over Xmas, Easter and 5 weeks over the Summer Holiday.

Gove is nasty piece of work, never a compliment to teachers, it's all bash, bash, bash, he wants a confrontation.

I would not recommend teaching as a profession or career path.

Education needs to start at home.

I agree with the idea of shorter holidays (jeebus I agree with Gove).

From what I can see, the PGCE just isn't very good. I work as a peripatetic guitar teacher in ten schools per week and have done whole class teaching too. Some of the teachers that I see are absolutely dire.

Malcolm Gladwell's book "outliers" contains quite a powerful section describing how longer teaching hours and shorter holidays has helped to raise educational attainment in some of the poorest communities of New York to that of the most well off - worth a read for anyone genuinely interested in this subject.

maybe but how much is sat down lessons? State schools dont have the resources to provide all the extra curricular stuff they do.

Exrta curricular activity used to be called 'play time'

I don't think its the time in lessons that matter or needs to change - the school day is an hour and half shorter than when I was a kid. Thats not because theres less lesson time, its all the breathing space between lessons thats gone. Nothing needs to be structured or provided in those times - just a break. In my childhood the teachers got to spend that time turning the air of the staff room opaque with fag smoke and kids spent it running around, and talking about whether we saw Mr Reid the music teacher on Thats Life playing the piano standing on his head last night, and having a childhood.

If I was a truck driver my tachograph wouldn't allow me to work with so little break time as school children get. I'm going to be working in a school today in fact and a 6hr day there feels like a 12hr day of any of the other work I do, part of that is the school thermostat is set to stun, but the other is working without any let up, your performing to a heckling audience - three matinees a day, without intervals. That's brain deadening for the teachers but the most 'challenging' kids (which in my experience are the ones that just 'get it' faster than their class mates) are just crawling up with wall being pinned down for that long

Not that I have any reason to side with Gove, he's a meddling prick. And not for economic reasons or education reasons but for the simply because the current school day is unreasonable. If you started to design a school day and a school year from scratch you couldn't invent a reason for 1.45hr lessons and 45min lunches for 5 year olds, just so you can finish your day two hours earlier. As we no longer require children to bring in the harvest it wouldn't occur to anyone to create a 6 week void in calendar either.

Both my wife and my daughter teach in secondary schools.

Unless you are a teacher or have one as a close friend, partner or relative, you cannot possibly know how hard teachers have to work.

How many of you get to work at 8.00am (or earlier) in order to prepare resources for the days work? How many of you then work a full day and how many of you then take home at least two hours worth of work to do each evening? Not many I suspect. That is standard practice for all the decent teachers I know.

The best comment I have read above was the one about just leaving things alone for a few years, to let the teachers actually get one with educating their pupils. It would also help if the Govt. would drop the 'one size fits all' approach, both to teachers, some of whom are crap but most of whom do an excellent job under huge amounts of performance related pressure, and also to pupils, most of whom are not going to get a 1st class Honours Degree at Oxbridge before moving on to get their Masters and PhD, but who are going to grow up to be ordinary people like us.

Can't help but think this will steal a lot of time from kids childhoods.

Parenting standards in the UK are rubbish

Are they?

Extra curricular activities I think are vital to help let young people develope, gain confidence and choose something they like doing. The resources that modern schools have near me are amazing and were not available to me growing up.
I dread when my kids go to school because of the short days they have, I really would prefer to have my kids to be at school longer but doing things they want to do.

Parenting standards with some in the UK are rubbish

FTFY

Can't help but think this will steal a lot of time from kids childhoods.

Maybe in the 70s and 80s when I was growing up, but I can't help thinking that all it will do is steal their Xbox time.

When I was their age the holidays were spent just heading out on my own from age 7-8, playing unsupervised with mates in the street or parks, exploring woods and fields or just blasting around the estate on my bike. We're a paranoid, frightened society now and that joy has already been denied to most kids.

Gove has a point (gags silently), but I'm not convinced that extra teacher-delivered curriculum time is particularly needed. I'd favour far more emphasis on organised sport and other activities.

I think he's just doing it to p*** off the teaching fraternity though, as they tend to go entertainingly apoplectic at the slightest hint of change.

has mr gove ever been a teacher ......

if not why the **** has he got that job he has no idea

if those plans go through i guarantee all that will happen is a mass exodus of teachers.

mrs T-r is a teacher and you couldnt pay me to do the hours she has to put in - she regularly gets no lunch or break due to doing your "extra curricular" activitys for little timmy , working till 8/9 at night marking their homeworks/tests and planning lessons.

Fack that.

"They DO get long holidays, they do get good pensions. I have no idea what the salary of a teacher is but 30 K - so above average and 13 weeks vacation time?"

over the course of the year i bet they work the same number of hours as someone with statuatory holidays. and its not 30k unless they are reaching the top of the pay scale or have taken on management duties

"Longer working days would make things easier for parents as would shorter holidays. I guess he's appealing to this rather than any real benefit in education. It also appeals to those who follow the idea that teachers are working short hours for the money paid."

this is the only concievable reasoning i can come up with for his retarded idea - turn schools into creiches for the great unwashed to send their kids to in the hope they might get jobs now that their kids are no longer a burden to their working hours.

the man needs a shake and a slap with a stick !

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-scales.aspx

mrs T-r is a teacher and you couldnt pay me to do the hours she has to put in - she regularly gets no lunch or break due to doing your "extra curricular" activitys for little timmy , working till 8/9 at night marking their homeworks/tests and planning lessons.

Like most other people in work do? I work for myself, do similar hours and get paid less.

Like most other people in work do?

They need to get themselves a good strong union if that's the case.

They need to get themselves a good strong union if that's the case.

Unfortunately, the previous generation voting Thatcher in persistently put paid to that. 🙁

[quote=fuzzhead said]They need to get themselves a good strong union if that's the case.
Unfortunately, the previous generation voting Thatcher in persistently put paid to that.

How come ? Unions can still withdraw labour if their members agree that course of action can't they ?

Would you rather return to strikes without ballot ?

[quote> http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-scales.aspx

That is the basic - so waht else is there. TBH - it seems pretty good

The arguement that "Mrs T is a teacher and I bet she works just as hard as you do over a year"
I bet she doesn't !! How many 4 am starts does she have, how mant 11.00pm finishes does she have , w/e lost to travelling etc. Teachesr are very sactamonious about their position.

Just as "we" don't appreciate how difficult being a teacher is, teachers have no idea what it is like to work in "business". Other than those who have made the jump.

When have teachers ever embraced a minister of education? When have they ever suggested ways of moving their careers forwards positively for better efficiently and results?
If you only craw about how badly paid it is , and how it is awful, people stop listing on the "cry wolf" basis

"Like most other people in work do? I work for myself, do similar hours and get paid less. "

You choose to work for your self - employ someone to share your work load. Cant afford that - maybe look at your business plan.

i work for someone and i work my hours and thats that - no unions involved. I do the odd late night / early morning when required but never 5 days a week etc etc .....oh and unlike teaching - when i do work extra OR travel OR start at 4am i get paid extra.

How come ? Unions can still withdraw labour if their members agree that course of action can't they ?

erm, there are a lot fewer unions represented in workplaces, healthcare and teaching and a few others excepted.

[quote=fuzzhead said]
erm, there are a lot fewer unions represented in workplaces, healthcare and [b]teaching and a few others excepted[/b].

I thought you were making a point about the teachers unions not being strong ?

National main payscale is, i belive, 25k-32k. A decent salary at first glance.

But, bearing in mind the skillset required, the pressure to achieve results, and the low regard they are held in by the rest of society, I think that’s actually pretty rubbish.(Along with other professions that are seen as "vocations").

You could be a middle manager in a large organization, sitting on your arse all day playing with spreadsheets and powerpoint and get paid more than that.

The government has to advertize teaching as a career all the time (I don't think they do it in the same way for any other professions?). In my locality there is never a shortage of teaching vacancies and it seems a lot of schools (primary and middle) find it very hard to recruit and retain good teachers.

It seems that unless you see it as a real vocation, the remuneration isn’t worth the aggro.

I reckon if Gove keeps acting the got he’ll just make the situation worse, with more teachers leaving the profession and fewer entering.

Longer working days would make things easier for parents as would shorter holidays. I guess he's appealing to this rather than any real benefit in education. It also appeals to those who follow the idea that teachers are working short hours for the money paid.

Teachesr are very sactamonious about their position.

Just as "we" don't appreciate how difficult being a teacher is, teachers have no idea what it is like to work in "business". Other than those who have made the jump.

Good point next time a teacher with no experience of business/your job tells you how to do it remind them of this. Afterwards you could then generalise this to you lecturing folk on things you have never done 💡

If you only craw about how badly paid it is , and how it is awful, people stop listing on the "cry wolf" basis

oh and who said decent pension.....

- ill let the echos of those who have seen answer that statement.... it HAS BEEN a decent pension but like many of our goverment services its been slashed and slashed and slashed.

So if you had a clean piece of paper - would you structure the schools day and holidays in the same way as it exists today? Probably not. So Gove points out that we're are living with a structure that was designed to meet the needs of a bygone age rather then the current one. And this is controversial? Blimey!

He then follows this up with his opinion on how the current timetabling (broadly speaking) compares with those in other countries - yes, this is probably more debatable and I would expect the examples to have been chosen to suit the idea. However, I look at one group who come to the UK to benefit from our globally competitve secondary and tertiary education - namely Asian students. They are my children's competition in the global workplace and in terms of hours put in, they work much longer hours. I am about to take son #1 back to Uni today and fully expect, as last term, to see the Asian students beavering away while the Brits take their time settling in. Its the same with the Asians who compete with son #2 at the secondary level. Again what is controversial about pointing this out. Kids need to be prepared for the future that they will face and one which is more challenging than that faced by their parents and their teachers. Forewarned in forearmed.

Teachers is an honourable profession that should be valued more (difficult for many if it is perceived as a free service) but the comments from the NUT that teachers need the lengthy holiday to "recharge their batteries", whilst partially true, is hardly going to curry favour with workers in other equally taxing professions.

"- ill let the echos of those who have seen answer that statement.... it HAS BEEN a decent pension but like many of our goverment services its been slashed and slashed and slashed. "

Teachers continue to get an extremely good pension with guaranteed benefits that are paid even if contributions from teachers result in a shortfall. For people who work their whole career as a teacher and go on to collect the pension the benefit still equates to a c27% co-payment by the employer / tax payer if you compare what teachers pay in to what they get out benefits, and what anyone else would need to pay in to a money purchase scheme receive the same guaranteed benefit.

The fact the profession continues to bleat on about this at the same time as bleating about low pay (see previous posting on pay scales) and needing more time off just highlights that reform is absolutely necessary. The data shows us that teachers are well paid, get good pensions and a lot of time off.

Teachesr are very sactamonious about their position.
perhaps but they can spell [/quote)
Ok - fair point - I'ma tad dyslexic, hence if I type to quickly and don't have spel chucker, I'm buggered , really.

They are not they are sick of folk like you going it is easy or other folk have it harder. I may as well ask when were you last shot at by enemy insurgents ...it is like jobs are hard for different reasons. Saying teaching is a hard and demanding job is not saying all other jobs are easy.

So, I have hit a raw nerve? I never said your job was easy. I said it needed reforming as it hasn't moved with the times. It is teachers who are always saying how shit their vocation is, not "us" says its is a PoP

Good point next time a teacher with no experience of business/your job tells you how to do it remind them of this. Afterwards you could then generalise this to you lecturing folk on things you have never done

Well patronised. 10/10 for showing that teacher's trait. Mum was a teacher, sister is a head, neice is a teacher, sister in law is a teacher, several friends that are teachers. I'm guessing know more about teaching that you do about my business TBH.

I was never very good at cryptic crossword clues - what s your point ?

My point is , how about teachers offering up something positive about how to change the career that they all moan about so much. If you cry wolf all the time, no-body will listen

 

Oh look, more anecdotal evidence (Asian students) flying in the face of the experts (some of whom he appoints himself) which Gove chooses to ignore again and again. And then again, just a bit more. I suppose he'll be dismissing anyone who agrees with his latest lunacy as Marxists again.

It is teachers who are always saying how shit their vocation is, not "us" says its is a PoP

I'm guessing many teachers would love their jobs and do it for the money paid if they could just get on and teach without some muppet like Gove meddling with the curriculum and their working hours and children's school hours all the time.

Oh look, more anecdotal evidence (Asian students) flying in the face of the experts (some of whom he appoints himself) which Gove chooses to ignore again and again. And then again, just a bit more. I suppose he'll be dismissing anyone who agrees with his latest lunacy as Marxists again.

So what is the the strategy and plan from the teachers to improve standards?
Or is it just "pay us more?"
I am happy to pay good teachers more - let see the perfomance records.

So what is the the strategy and plan from the teachers to improve standards?

Why are you asking me? I'm not an expert on education (despite having lots of family in the teaching profession, it [i]doesn't[/i] make [i]me[/i] an expert). Gove appoints experts, some of whom must have experience in education, or must have taught in the past, who tell him stuff. He then ignores most of it and gleefully does what he wanted to do anyway. Mind you, that's par for the course with this lot. He's only taking his cue from Gideon and Ian I-Have-Suffered D. Smith.

My point is , how about teachers offering up something positive about how to change the career that they all moan about so much.

They do, don't they? They want smaller class sizes so that they can focus more on individual students’ needs, more focus on actual learning rather than memorising very specific stuff for exams, and more support when dealing with troubled students. At least, that’s the impression I get from the teacher friends I have.

I don’t see how those suggestions are any less constructive than “make kids work longer with less holidays, because that works in some other countries”.

So what is the the strategy and plan from the teachers to improve standards?

Smaller class sizes? But no we can't possibly afford that because 10 million pound funerals and tax cuts for millionaires don't fund themselves. .

Less bureaucracy/form filling and government meddling too maybe? Stop constantly slagging them off and undermining them in the press?

DD - how do you know Gove is ignoring experts?
Do you have a link to the source?
Cheers

Unfortunately both education and health service need to be reformed but unfortunately not on the 4-5 year basis that general elections allow. It needs a 10 year plan at least ...
Handing the power in the NHS to the Doctors may be a really daft idea ...and produce some very rich ex Drs

DD, well if recognising that our children's main "competition" going forward lies outside our national boundaries is mere anecdotal evidence, then so be it. I prefer to think that it is understanding the "real world" in a different sense to how that term is bandied around on here. And the students/my children will be left in no doubt where I think they need to benchmarking themselves against.

I am not sure who you consider the experts to be, but the latest comments from the NUT did not give exactly demonstrate the required expertise, more defending self interest. And there is a conflict there that most real world people can see all too clearly.

someone needs to help me out here. Why is that educational performance (numeracy, verbal reasoning, literacy amongst others) by students in Asia is so much better when they don't have smaller class sizes?

DD - how do you know Gove is ignoring experts?
Do you have a link to the source?
Cheers

Here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jun/12/michael-gove-curriculum-attacked-adviser

Or if you prefer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9941075/Academics-attack-endless-lists-of-facts-in-new-curriculum.html

robdixon - comparing American schools to Asian schools but:

Although the school day is very long, individual teachers are responsible for a much smaller part of it than their American colleagues. Indeed, when most Asian teachers were told how much an American teacher had to do during the day, and what resources were available to do it, their response was usually simple disbelief.

[b]In Asia, teachers are usually responsible for about three hours of instruction a day. [/b]In general, teachers were in charge of classes for somewhat more than half (60%) of their school day. What did they do the rest of the time? Prepare lessons, grade papers, work with individual students and confer daily with their colleagues.

http://www.tdl.com/~schafer/Asian.htm

DD, well if recognising that our children's main "competition" going forward lies outside our national boundaries is mere anecdotal evidence, then so be it

When you're finished with the impertinent patronising tone, and putting words in my mouth, then you can join back in. [insert patronising winky smiley here for effect.]

As regards Gove ignoring expert advice, including his own appointees, it's well known that he does. There are plenty of articles out there. Perhaps someone on a pooter could link for me.

EDIT: fanyuberrymuch grum.

 

The data shows us that teachers are well paid, get good pensions and a lot of time off.

If it's so great why not quit your current job and retrain as a teacher. Personally I'm no better qualified than any teacher but I earn way more and don't have to put up with unpaid overtime. Not for all the tea in china would I want to do their job.

pensions WERE good rob - you have seen what a teacher starting teaching today gets for a pension AND the age at what they get it ?

gonefishin i think he means "his interpretation of the data"

Words in my my mouth? I commented on the example of Asian students in the UK and how they compare with my children and their peers and you replied with "oh look, more anecdotal evidence."

The "impertinent" tag dies with extended, over-use BTW rather like the comments from some of the NUT.

Of course, Gove is guilty of rejecting and accepting advice. That is his job. He gets it wrong too. But the link starts specifically with the structure of terms etc. To go back to my OP, in countries that are not tied to the agrarian legacy, they have different structures which reduce the need for extended summer (and other) holidays. Experiments have already happened in the UK with different structures (eg the semester style terms etc) and IMO ( if you will permit me joining back in) there is genuine merit in debating the structure issue in the UK too.

trailrat - the pensions are still good - have you seen what the rest of the country gets?

Teachers get 50% of their salary and a lump sum equivalent to 4 x earnings.

" I commented on the example of Asian students in the UK "

My experiance with asian students i have met through studies and working with them IS

they have drive to get out of where they grew up and a good way out is education for them.

from what i hear of the kids today at schools if left to their own devices would not study but instead would just waste time adn get up to no good. There is no drive - afterall a life of benifits is just round the corner.

the rest of the country being ?

maybe mines (non teaching - but low life expectancy) is just exceptional.

My mum was a teacher for 30 odd years, middle management, excellent skills, retired on 30k or thereabouts.

That's pretty shite given that it's a demanding and, let's not forget, extremely important profession.

PS there are good asian students and bad ones, just like everywhere else.

With regards term structure, kids in the US are at school pretty much all the time between September and June. I've no idea how they manage to teach them anything at all tbh.

you only get that if you retire at 68 - you retire at 65 - which imo is even high for a teacher..... you loose out on a significant chunk of it .

work em till they die or die trying.

robdixon, so you're just going to ignore the bits where I posted the links you asked for, because you didn't like what they said? Bit rude.

If you are suggesting we follow the Asian model where teachers only average three hours a day of teaching time and get to do their planning and marking within the regular working day I imagine the teaching unions would be right there with you.

there is genuine merit in debating the structure issue in the UK too.

You might have a point if he wasn't just using this as yet another stick to beat (state school) teachers with, or if it was based on some sort of evidence.

Grum - I guess the extent to which he is seen as beating teachers or otherwise will be open to interpretation. His words from the link that "He said that the current system left pupils at a “significant handicap” compared to children in East Asian nations who benefited from extra tuition and support from teachers" could be interpreted as such I suppose - if the cap fits!

But more telling IMO is the simple message - "“In order to reach those levels of achievement a higher level of effort is expected on behalf of [b]students, parents and teachers[/b],”. In my mind that is as close to a truism as he is likely to get. And it will be those who miss that message who run the danger of resorting to future support from the government/"society" that Gove's predecessors have warned ( 😉 ) may be more of a mirage rather than a real and worthwhile prop! Now whose message was that or has it merely been "buried" in the past now? 😉

Finland has a very interesting Education system, outperforming most systems in the world since their reforms a few decades ago.

Shorter days and longer summer holidays, shorter lessons and small classses of 20 (schooling from age 7)
Teachers are picked from the top 10% of graduates and respected like Doctors.
It is very difficult to become a Teacher because of the high level of competition.

http://www.greatschools.org/students/2453-finland-education.gs

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

Unless you are a teacher or have one as a close friend, partner or relative, you cannot possibly know how hard teachers have to work.

This. Teachers more than deserve their salary and holidays.

I note that the government, so keen to talk about far eastern school systems, are less keen to talk about one much closer to home - Finland. There they don't start until the age of 7, have short working days, no homework and call teachers by their first name. They also have the best results in the world. The needs of working parents are are addressed by state funded childcare, which largely pays for itself because it allows parents to go back to work, pay tax and buy stuff.

So, some countries' schools with much better results than us work much longer, and some work less. Gove, as usual, is looking at a non-solution.

edit: I didn't see theocb's post!

. They[Asians] are my children's competition in the global workplace and in terms of hours put in, they work much longer hours

Neither you nor he commented on what age our European partners start school and now there is a rush for Early years and nursery to start even earlier and still do more hours.

Its not as simple as two brains suggests and it is pretty poor [ ie it is a cherry picking distortion] to choose Asia as a comparison when we are a western G7 EU country
He knew what he was doing and I suspect you do as well.

This is not to say that education would not benefit from some changes, nothing is perfect, but there are other models more suitable to our situation and needs IMHO.

JY, I agree that there are many model to choose from both geographically and within the UK. The model that I am know best draws on the best from the state and private system and from business. All have valuable contributions to make. The Scandies have many interesting to things to consider - including (just for fun) the Swedish idea that there is no harm in schools making a profit! 😉 FWIW, I think the notion that there is one best way that suits all children (be it Finnish, Asia, UK or otherwise) is flawed from the outset, but the debates are fun nevertheless.

The reason I comment on the Asians is that I see it every day here, not in their home nations. My observations are confirmed by my children's. Is their way better? Not necessarily, since some miss out on wider opportunities that some schools as able to offer. And lets not forget that many Asians make significant sacrifices to send their kids here - so UK education must have some merits, dont you think!?! But in the classroom and in the music school (piano and strings) their work ethic is noteworthy IMO. The other observation is indeed anecdotal, but last term when I took my older son to Uni and picked him up, the only students I saw working in their halls were all Asians. It will be interesting to see if the same is true later this afternoon.

Funny thing is, the issue about the antiquated term structure does seem to come up every few years and I get the impression that many teachers would quite welcome a reform in this area.

The trouble is teachers also have a boss that always seems to be telling them and the public in general that teachers are doing a bad job and that they need to work harder. Add to this the erosion of their terms and conditions of employment (along with other public sector workers) and the lack of esteem everyone seems to hold them in. It’s no wonder they don’t like him very much.

It’s easier to improve things through consensus rather than confrontation. I get the impression Gove is more interested in showing everyone how tough he is rather than actually reforming anything. He always comes across a bit of a bully. Perhaps he wants to go down in history as the man who smashed the teachers rather than the man who saved education.

Ok, other people must also be at fault (the leaders of the NUT might be spoiling for a 1970s style fight perhaps?), but its Gove’s job to lead and he doesn’t seem to be doing it very well.

I don’t know much about Gove, was he ever a teacher (or had any proper job) or is he a career politician?

last term when I took my older son to Uni and picked him up, the only students I saw working in their halls were all Asians

There's a bit of selection bias going on here. The ones you see whose parents have the cash to send them here probably had a good work ethic instilled in them by said parents (or inherited it from them) and are probably under great pressure to do well because of said money.

There are probably a lot of loafers lazing around in Mumbai somewhere who you'll never meet.

Gove's idea of reform is pile more and more work on teachers, increase the audit trail and take away Teaching Assistants. More workload, less staff = poorer quality. The cretin is all stick and no carrot, a bit like some of the comments on here.

goves a ****-
state funded childcare would do more to benefit working parents and kids from all backgrounds, than any of his high handed empty headed right wing pandering bollox

and the pension thing also pisses me off, the private sector used to have good pensions too but successive thatcherite chancellors; lawson, lamont, brown have fuct over pensions with taxes, contribution holidays and raids
so now the politics of envy means that public sector pensions need to be destroyed too

State funded child care ! - why ?
You had them - you pay for them. It's not up to the rest of the taxpayers. If you can't afford childcare , don't have kids.

Nobody is trying to "destroy" teachers pensions - they are just too generous to be afforded at a time when the country is skint. Or have you missed noticing that?

You play the "Thatcher" card ... fair enough. Now go an research how Blair and Brown pissed money down the drain, allowed banks to de-regulate, sold of the gold etc ....

UK PLC is horribly skint because the last succession of CEOs have not done a very good job .. . so there is no money for free child care, smaller classrooms.

The questions to the teaching fraternity is how do you give a better service with what you have ?
That is what many businesses are faced with ....

mrmoofo - Member

State funded child care ! - why ?
You had them - you pay for them. It's not up to the rest of the taxpayers.

Children are an integral and vital part of society - hadn't you noticed ?

Also they do not create any wealth whilst they are still children.

There's two good reasons to be getting on with.

The questions to the teaching fraternity is how do you give a better service with what you have ?
That is what many businesses are faced with ....

Better service ? This is children's education we're talking about - not a business, do you understand there are differences ?

And Mr Gove isn't interested in putting "questions to the teaching fraternity", apparently he thinks that as a qualified reporter he knows all the answers.

Here’s another perspective: 404,600 fully trained teachers under the age of 60 are no longer teaching, compared to around half a million still actively working in English and Welsh schools. So that’s almost half of the qualified teachers in the country not actually teaching. And it’s getting worse: some 47,700 teachers left their jobs in the year 2010-11, up from 40,070 in 2009-10. That’s a lot of teachers.

if its such a good job,well paid, country crippling pension sizes and massive economy destroying hilidays why does this happen. If standards are seriously to be addressed class sizes need reducing as well as workload. Any more negative changes to my terms and conditions and I'll bugger off to the private sector which friends who have made the jump say has better pay and less shit. Pensions the same too. Maybe that is exactly what Gove wants.

Mrmoofo; I would love to apply your business model to teaching,but since it is a vocation l refuse to as as it would affect the quality of the service l provide if l was only to work,say 15-20 unpaid hours a week,take a lunch break etc. Oh;and l was a self employed plasterer for best part of 20 years,so spare me your crap about everybody doing more hours than teachers. Hardest,most time consuming job l have ever had is teaching.When,not if,sections of the profession work to rule,(after all Gove has stated he wants us all to do 35hrs)...You will get an insight into what teachers provide,and you may be surprised.

this is not the most stupid/annoying thing gove has said/introduced (see ebac, performance pay, gcse English results etc. )
As a teacher I would have no problem with a change to the terms or working day, as long as it was done in CONSULTATION nationally, he is suggesting that individual schools do it ad hoc.

What I mainly hate gove for is his constant degradation of the teaching profession, his insinuation through this statement is that teachers are lazy.

If he really wanted to improve education in this country he would need to work with teachers rather than constantly picking fights.

I find it rather sad to read some of the daily fail type comments from some people on here, I sometimes cringe when I hear comments from some of the Union leaders and it does sound like teachers whinge and moan, but if someone is constantly having a go at you it's difficult to not have a go back on occasion.

Duckman - FFS read what I have written. Not what you think I have written. As a teacher, I would have thought you would know better than that. I don't think everyone works harder than teachers - but I think teachers are a tad patronising when they say the "need their long holidays". Everyone else would like to nee them, as well. I do think teachers work just as hard as many others in society.

Ernie - wow, I never realised that . Is that the case. Have as many children as you want , buster. But it is up to you to make sure they a become an addition to society - not the rest of the taxpayers , who maybe have chosen not to have them, to pay for child care. If you can't afford it, don't do it. That is life

By the "society" also need businesses to generate wealth and jobs. Taxes on those jobs to pay for the public sector ... it's not an empty pot.

Sure teaching is a vocation - but it has to be paid for by public money. That is tax money raised by every who is suffering from pension downgrades , no salary increases and regular redundancies, and inflation. So whilst it is a vocation , it also need fiscal responsibility.

The starting point is always " how do you do a better job with the resources you have". Someone earlier mentioned class size - yup - but the only way to have smaller classes with the resources you have, is to use those resources more effectively - i.e in the holiday times. The government is actually still paying you for 52 weeks a year.

The UK is skint - the pot is not endless - we all have to make sacrifices.

Can you explain how working in the holidays would make class sizes smaller. I did revision sessions in the easter holidays, havent noticed the class sizes reduce.

Can you explain how working in the holidays would make class sizes smaller.

Yeah, I was wondering that too. I'd also be eager to hear your reasoning on that one.

The UK is skint - the pot is not endless - we all have to make sacrifices.

Please explain what sacrifices the millionaires who've just received a massive tax cut have had to make.

And skimping on education is only going to make the UK more skint in the long run.

Interestingly enough, Gove seems to mean that "family friendly" means children spending less time with their parents. 😕

There's only one way that I can think of to even hope to achieve it and that is to have children in the schools for 52 weeks a year, but with each individual child only there for say 38 weeks a year.

I should point out that I think this is a massively dumb idea as it would only result in average class sizes being reduced by 25% (1-38/52), but the make up of said classes would be constantly changing making consitant teaching an impossiblity. It has other problems with how teachers holidays would work, I'm assuming that teachers would be permitted some time off in such a scheme.

mrmofoo, you seem to have a basic misunderstanding of how society works

todays children will be in work and paying tax when you are claiming your pension, its in your interest to ensure that these children have the best possible start in life as they will grow up to be better educated and more productive and thus paying more tax

-weve got 2 kids once the 2nd is in childcare it no longer becomes worthwile both my wife and I working, how does that help the economy?

state funded childcare would also allow more parents back into work, claiming less benefits and being more productive

investing in children is investing in the country, but it seems youve bought into the daily fail/ tory rhetoric nicely so turn it into a business, pay the lowest possible for teachers and get a head start in the race to the bottom