[Closed] Ministry of Defence Cuts (Prince Harry)

Give the guy a break - I quite like him, and it's not like he chose to be Spare Prince. At least he's doing something more useful than pontificating on architecture, talking to plants, sticking his fingers down his throat and crying on panorama. Respect !

(although getting his willy out and wondering why he got papped was a bit dumb)

And he's killed Taliban terrorists so now he's a real man of the people.

While they're binning off half the front line, will they be getting rid of any of the highly efficient mandarins making such a fine job of things like procurement at the MOD?

I hope not! They're doing a great job!!

As for Harry... he's done a damn site more to defend this country than I have. Fair play to him. He didn't have too. He [i]wanted[/i] too.

Depends which option the army and royal family think they can get most media miles out of.

Wonder what happened about this injustice :
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soldier-sacked-by-army-72-hours-1389909

We're not as bad at procurement as the press would have you believe. Believe it or not, it's quite difficult given the lead-in times, constraints and changing requirements procurement staff work under. "Mandarins", a classic bit of tabloid stereotyping; most of the folk you're talking about aren't public school educated Sir Humphrey types in a chesterfield at the Garrick Club, they are hard workers on about 30k a year.

And I don't think prince H will get made redundant, because I don't think any Apache pilots will.

As for Harry... he's done a damn site more to defend this country than I have. Fair play to him. He didn't have too. He wanted too.

^^^ That.

With the addition that he had to fight his own family to go back a 2nd time whilst knowing that he was a major target for some very unfriendly people.

We're not as bad at procurement as the press would have you believe.

Erm... [url= http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/how-the-mod-wastes-our-billions-reporter-feature ]ok then[/url]

I work with the MOD - we are one of their major suppliers - they are bad at procurement.

I work with the MOD - we are one of their major suppliers - they are bad at procurement.

The MoD would fare better if it didnt have to sustain half of the UK Engineering industry.... 😉

BAE have a major issue regarding a 2-3 year gap between the QEC build completion and the start of the T26 builds, they have already been touting a few new OPVs for the RN which the RN neither want nor need but political whim and the power of the company could well see them built regardless.... so dont assume that the procurement failings are the fault of the MoD and not also as a result of UK Industry trying to sustain its workforce and weak politicians unable to stand up to them for fear of losing voters....

How do we compare to other major nations for cost and time overruns then? The US, Brazil, India? Investing in top line capability is an uncertain game, and it costs a lot of money. But recent history shows that a better trained and equipped force will defeat a much larger one.

That article is so riddled with inaccuracies that I can't be bothered to correct them. The media like things simple, but some topics are not simple. You can put a number on soldiers, aircraft, ships or whatever, but it's harder for them to quantify capabilities, training and skill levels. So they don't, they bang on about the Falklands or something instead.

Also, what BristolPablo said; the fault is not all on the MoD side!

MOD BAE QEC T26 OPV RN BINGO!

Aren't we in the process of building 2 mahoosive aircraft carriers that won't actually have any planes to fly off them?

classic-- playing war games for real--harry the hero ! i would say he has a slight advantage, on his attack helicopter bristling with hi tec weapons against people with not much more than rifles and home made bombs, if they had effective surface to air missiles , he would not be there !

ah, yeah, sorry about that... I missed POW and LPDs.....

Brazil and India dont have much of an new equipment procurement programme to be honest, they buy old capability from various countries. I think up till recently they both had old RN carriers for example. I think Brazil recently bought some of our old Type 22 Frigates too.

Dont get me wrong, Companies like BAE are developing and delivering cutting edge technology to cope with our modern warfare requirements but the big stuff like Ships, Planes and tanks, I'll confess we are all pretty poor at but the "blame" can be attributed to many sources.

No he wont. Been on active service so is exempt.

Er, yes they will (have aircraft to fly off them). F35B should arrive a couple of years after the carriers, which have a 40 year (I think) projected service life. You can hardly blame the UK for the delays in that programme, we are very much the junior partner to the USA. And again, it's cutting edge technology. Lots of stuff that we look on as indispensable now had a troubled development, sometimes you need to keep the faith!

How would you have balanced all the planning factors?

... and keep writing the cheques? 😉

On the procurement issue - if it was just a case of buying the equipment to meet a given set of requirements at the best price and availability then it'd be a piece of cake and we'd be using lots of cheap American commodity kit like FA18s. What complicates it is the massive lobbying interests and the requirement to prop up a load of UK suppliers (or nominally former UK like BAE) as a political sop because the local MP would be out on his ear at the next election if the contract went elsewhere.

Rudebwoy, perhaps we should equip them so it's fairer? Or maybe we should run around in flip flops with AK47s?
Crewing an Apache is still rather braver than typing about it. And I think it would do fine against most SAMs actually, due to the British procurement system ensuring we have some of the best defensive aids suites in the world.

An F18 is hardly cheap. And another trick the media enjoy is comparing the bare bones price of a foreign price of kit with the home grown alternative, ignoring development, through life costs, training, parts etc etc. See the recent reports of the RAF paying £1bn each for new tankers. I've also seen it bandied around that the exchequer recovers a lot of UK programme costs as tax, which Uncle Sam won't be giving you.

Pretty sure the first of the UK F35Bs has been delivered and is racking up the hours in UK hands too...

And all govt procurement has to be done via the limited choice of approved suppliers who, by virtue of being on the list, have something close to a licence to print money.

Instead of killing and maiming people with superior weaponry, how about saving lives-- start by abdicating , and all that ill gotten wealth could re distributed to help people !

The people he's shooting at aren't very nice, you know. Some of them have even killed and maimed people themselves. Come to think of it, that's probably why he's shooting at them!

Civil list is about £15m/year. 60m people means 25p each. Party on!

Instead of killing and maiming people with superior weaponry, how about saving lives-- start by abdicating , and all that ill gotten wealth could re distributed to help people !

He need to be a King to abdicate.

You might argue that he is killing people to stop them killing more people. I doubt he could use Royal Family wealth to get the taliban to 'calm down'

🙄

The people he's shooting at aren't very nice, you know. Some of them have even killed and maimed people themselves. Come to think of it, that's probably why he's shooting at them!

He need to be a King to abdicate.

ab·di·cate
/?abdi?k?t/
Verb
- (of a monarch) Renounce one's throne: "in 1918 Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated as German emperor".
[b]- Fail to fulfill or undertake (a responsibility or duty)[/b]: "the government was accused of abdicating its responsibility".
Synonyms
renounce - resign - relinquish - waive - give up

there are other ways to 'serve your country' that don't involve blowing people up. I don't think Harry is the type to think about things like that very deeply though.

So glad someone believes all of that laser-guided clean kill propaganda.

And the humane but effective alternative is......?

And the humane but effective alternative is......?

Scented candles and a cuddle.

Yossarian: True enough. With that handle, you should know all about it. But let's not belittle his achievements.

I never said anything about laser guidance, clean kills etc. I said the people he was shooting at. Collateral damage can happen. But I know the lengths we go to to avoid it, including threat to property as well as human life. Do you?

rudebwoy - Member
classic-- playing war games for real--harry the hero ! i would say he has a slight advantage, on his attack helicopter bristling with hi tec weapons against people with not much more than rifles and home made bombs, if they had effective surface to air missiles , he would not be there !

' serve your country'-- is that some deeply unpleasant task, like going down on the queen ?

' serve your country'-- is that some deeply unpleasant task, like going down on the queen ?

double trouble-- once would be enough for a medal

And another trick the media enjoy is comparing the bare bones price of a foreign price of kit with the home grown alternative, ignoring development, through life costs, training, parts etc etc.

This, absolutely.

We do it all over the place, not just the military. Witness trains being bought from Germany for a fraction less than the price of British built alternatives, because the rules mean there is way too much focus on that single balance sheet, not on the wider economic picture. £1bn spent in German factories is seen as better than £1.1bn spent in UK factories, despite the fact that the latter is far better for the overall UK economy.

there are other ways to 'serve your country' that don't involve blowing people up. I don't think Harry is the type to think about things like that very deeply though.

Well, his brother is busy 'serving the country' doing a similar job while rescuing people who decided that crib goch looked like a fun route to traverse in high heels - but both have to go and do what their Nan tells them to don't they.

But let's not belittle his achievements.

He's a dilettante. He left school with middling-to-poor A levels in Art and Geography, and went straight into Sandhurst.

It beggars belief that he's in that cockpit through merit or talent. His pilot must have drawn a very short straw.

but both have to go and do what their Nan tells them to don't they.

i don't think so, they choose to. I don't doubt that they have been schooled, educated and groomed to take on these roles but let's not pretend it isn't a choice. Its a great shame that they haven't chosen a different path, particularly Harry. A serving royal in an illegal war? tsk tsk.

these people have the very best education, health care, and advantage that is possible, yet look how they turn out !

Inbreeding has been made illegal for most people....

If he hadn't made the grade, he wouldn't be in the cockpit. I've got friends in the helicopter flying training system and I seriously believe this. Academic results have little bearing on flying ability.

Look how they turn out? Most parents would be quite proud to have their kids make the grade as helicopter pilots.

A serving royal in an illegal war? tsk tsk.

To be fair, a quick look through history suggests the royals have never been the greatest believers in the rulings of international institutions. Why start at this stage in the game?

Illegal war? Aren't we here at the invitation of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan under a UN Security Council resolution?

illegal war?

I think you're getting Afghanistan mixed up with Iraq

I think you're getting Afghanistan mixed up with Iraq

Let's not let fact's get in the way of a good rudebwoy rant.

Ed Macy's book "Apache" is a pretty good read, as an Apache gunner (The Army let the NCOs drive!), Harry has my full respect.

I think you're getting Afghanistan mixed up with Iraq

i don't think I am actually. When did the US invade Afghanistan? What conditions need to apply for one nation to invade another? Where those conditions met in 2001 when the bombardment & invasion of Afghanistan began?

konabunny - Member

So glad someone believes all of that laser-guided clean kill propaganda.

Hi, defence engineer working on lasers here, can I help?

Prince Harry is so annoying! He shouldn't be such a flaunt, he carries on with a gaggle of open mouthed brown nosers around him, spending tax payers money, wide eyed and as if his actions have no consequences. William, to his credit has more decorum. Harry strikes me a callous and insensitive.

It beggars belief that he's in that cockpit through merit or talent.

Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

He's a dilettante. He left school with middling-to-poor A levels in Art and Geography, and went straight into Sandhurst.

It beggars belief that he's in that cockpit through merit or talent. His pilot must have drawn a very short straw.

Right on. Why are people celebrating the fact that he might have killed someone? This is another life we're talking about.

... followed by another...

Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

its a bit early to be calling that

Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

I dunno - that thread on religious nutjobs has come contenders

[img] [/img]

This book is a few years old but gives an interesting overview of UK defense spending. Not sure that I agree with all the authors conclusions but it is thought provoking stuff.

[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lions-Donkeys-And-Dinosaurs-Blundering/dp/0099484420/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358851373&sr=8-1 ]Amazon link to book[/url]

Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

Thank you very much!

I'm guessing it's beyond you to explain why you think that, but you could start by looking at the more usual entry requirements for Sandhurst if you like.

As for Harry... he's done a damn site more to defend this country than I have. Fair play to him. He didn't have too. He wanted too.

Whilst not questioning the courage of people doing a difficult job under fire - he isn't defending our country. He is furthering the commercial and political agenda of another country entirely. In my view, without the American drive to commercially, culturally and politically dominate the rest of the world since the end of the Second World War, we wouldn't be in the position of facing terror threats from other regions.

I'm guessing it's beyond you to explain why you think that, but you could start by looking at the more usual entry requirements for Sandhurst if you like.

Have you had your belief in our socially mobile meritocracy shattered? 😆

johnners - Member

Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

Thank you very much!

I'm guessing it's beyond you to explain why you think that, but you could start by looking at the more usual entry requirements for Sandhurst if you like.

I take it you do know the entry requirements to Sandhurst yourself then...?

Harry met the minimum requirements for entry to Officer training - 2 A Levels...

Anyway, he could have been in scope for redundancy - just had the notification myself - the eligibility criteria have been cut right down, in terms of ops, only those on or about to go are exempt. Those who've just returned would be eligible for the chop, so by that token he'd be in the frame if he weren't a pilot.

Jamj1974: you are well within your rights to believe that. I think you may have a point re American foreign policy, in the past certainly.

My point is that we retain the moral high ground. We use lethal force as a last resort, we only use it against the "bad guys", and we take great pains to ensure nobody else is hurt. We don't go around shooting schoolgirls in the face. So all this talk of "somebody's life", you are talking about somebody who will have been responsible for a few deaths himself.

I think some people genuinely believe our lot fly round the countryside mowing down farmers like in Apocalypse Now.

Illegal war? What's a legal war, one where the other side agrees to be attacked.

Or is it where you and your buddies create a organisation and give it the power to legitimise your actions. What a con.

My point is that we retain the moral high ground

😯

*waves from the moral high ground*

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I like the bloke, as others said the middle east is a barbaric hole and the prospects if shot down and captured aren't great.
I approached the army a few years ago to see if they required my skillset (paramedic) out there, at the time the press was full of reports of hideous injuries from IEDs and I felt I could help as a medic....they politely declined my offer, I was 35 at the time so understandable I suppose.
My sister dated a paratrooper for a while, he crossed the border into Iraq with the yanks in 2003 (I think?) and seemed to enjoy army life.
I also like his hard partying attitude and couldn't give two hoots that it's done on my taxes!

Much easier to post some funnies than answer the argument with proof to the contrary. If you'd read it properly you'd have seen I was talking about our conduct of the counter insurgency, not the political level decisions to go in in the first place.

I don't doubt that they have been schooled, educated and groomed to take on these roles but let's not pretend it isn't a choice

Can you recall the last time a Prince choose to not do this - serve in the military - they even let theatre loving fan of the musicals Edward have a crack at being a marine as an example of how much it is expected of them.

Even the queen served during the war

No idea when the last Royal did not serve so I am not sure it is in any sense a choice

As for suggesting the royals get where they are due to merit I find it hard to believe, even on stw , that anyone can be that naive.

Phil: a legal war is one supported by the UN Security Council. Of the five permanent members, who can each veto an action, china and Russia are hardly Uncle Sam's "buddies". France is arguably not either!

He would not be flying the Apache if he hadn't been up to it. I know this because I know and understand the military flying training system, having worked in and around it for 10 years or so. What's your expertise, junkyard? Or is it just prejudice? You said yourself Prince Edward didn't make it as a marine.

Love him or hate him he's out there and doing a job.

My question is how much is his additional security costing while he's there, wouldnt it be better to keep him in the UK and spend that money elsewhere i.e. keeping other soliders safe and in jobs?

Mr Woppit - Member
It beggars belief that he's in that cockpit through merit or talent.
Possibly the most idiotic comment on STW today.

This and this...

airtragic - Member
He would not be flying the Apache if he hadn't been up to it.

+1 to both

He probably has less security in Afg than he does in the UK, so it's a taxpayer saving (sort of)!

Yes, thanks airtragic, I'm well aware of this.

The whole idea that the UN have the power to make something like war 'legal' is just ridiculous since the only ones with any real power in the UN are the 5 permanent members.

They may not be best buddies but they do a lot of business and trade. This is always going to be the number one priority so vetoing an invasion is never going to happen.

Much easier to post some funnies than answer the argument with proof to the contrary. If you'd read it properly you'd have seen I was talking about our conduct of the counter insurgency, not the political level decisions to go in in the first place.

well, we could start here if you like:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/29/afghanistan-british-army-crimes

The whole idea that the UN have the power to make something like war 'legal' is just ridiculous since the only ones with any real power in the UN are the 5 permanent members.

They may not be best buddies but they do a lot of business and trade. This is always going to be the number one priority [u]so vetoing an invasion is never going to happen[/u].

That would be why they didn't sanction the war in Iraq then?

He would not be flying the Apache if he hadn't been up to it. I know this because I know and understand the military flying training system, having worked in and around it for 10 years or so. What's your expertise, junkyard? Or is it just prejudice? You said yourself Prince Edward didn't make it as a marine

As for suggesting the royals get where they are due to merit I find it hard to believe, even on stw , that anyone can be that naive.

Not sure i have made any comment on his ability to fly a helicopter or to command a unit or to join the SAS. I simply made the point that being HRH and called Windsor opens some doors for you such as getting there in the first place to be trained - do you really think he had just as much chance as anyone else in being recruited?

What standard he can fly to I have no idea and made no comment on it.

Hilarious so many of you think the Royals dont get special treatment How can anyone think that being HRH does not open doors for you 😕