I do a bit of travelling for work, normally if it's more than a couple of hours away they'll book me a hotel - new company owners now state that a destination has to be more than 2.5 hours away before they'll book a hotel. Are there regulations around this? Theoretically I could now have a week with up to 25 hours of driving on top of me 37.5 - seems a bit dangerous to me...
Theoretically I could now have a week with up to 25 hours of driving on top of me 37.5
If you are driving for work then that surely comes out of your 37.5 hours - otherwise you are being forced to work 62.5 hours per week.
Drive slower, then it's 2.5hrs away
F that. I'd imagine there has to be something around the work/time directive? ie 8 hours work, combined with driving is excessive?
I think it depends on where your "normal" place of work is. Have a look here..
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1373
I would have that that any employer expecting one of their employees to drive nearly 5 hours a day as well as carrying out a full days work would have difficulty in defending that policy in the event of said employee being in involved in any form of work related accident. That including the driving just under 2.5 hours on the way home.
Many of the businesses that I work with/ for do not allow this kind of behaviour.
If you are driving for work then that surely comes out of your 37.5 hours – otherwise you are being forced to work 62.5 hours per week.
This. Travel in work time only. When they realise that after travelling for 5 hours you can only work for 2.5 hours, I'm pretty sure they will change their policy.
Some of my mates will drive 3 or 4 hours each-way for work, but they'll usually work a shorter day AND more importantly they're paid for the travel time (barring the first 30 mins each-way I believe).
I wouldn't personally commute to a single place of work for 5 hours a day for anything, but if it was a one-off day I'd rather do that than stay over, my days of living the Partridge life are long gone.
Travel time = work tine. Simple.
Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.
Granted some end up walking in at 10, but don’t normally leave till 5’ish.
Try that.
Be the first.
See what happens.
Stuff that. Travel in their time. That's the way I've been expected to do it for the last 20+ years.
Is this travel to and from the same destination every day? And work pays for your travel expenses? 4 nights in a travel lodge and 5 hours driving surely is cheaper that 25 hours driving. And that's before the time taken is factored in.
I suspect we need more information about where your normal place of work is, full time or a suby etc etc.
One off vs sequential days for me, it generally comes down to common sense and where you are travelling and how often. though I do like using the google maps arrive at or leave by calcs which give a more realistic travel time.
Also driving time and breaks so every 2 hrs you need to take a break from driving.
travelling in their time is ok but if the course you are on starts at 8.30 am til 5pm..computer still says no.
thats why no one attends at ours any more.
Idiotbastids.
I don't have a normal place of work as such, been here a year and only seen head office three times - I'm a trainer so travelling around to sites training folks on a daily basis.
Also driving time and breaks so every 2 hrs you need to take a break from driving.
Interesting - a half hour break? There's my 2.5 hours! 🙂 The frustrating thing is, traffic can easily and frequently push a two hour journey over their abitrary limit, but bit late to book anything then.
The frustrating thing is, traffic can easily and frequently push a two hour journey over their abitrary limit, but bit late to book anything then.
Hence using the google maps estimates for the travel time. Or just book into the next travel lodge you see on the motorway when your sat nav says it's going over.
We have a policy that over 2hrs or a long day but closer, it becomes an option.
We have clear "don't be a d*ck" expectations over too long days, managers will hold us to account.
We also have clear time of in lieu allowance, so when we do put in a long day, we get time back within a fortnight usually. As example, I am away down south next week with 5am start Wednesday and return at 10pm on Firday - same again for next three weeks. I have already booked off half days and some Fridays end of Nov/Dec.
It is a small organisation, and easier to manage this side of things.
ECJ ruled 3 years ago that for those workers without a fixed place of work, travel time is working time. So they can't tell you to drive 5 hour round trip and work more than a few hours.
Is it not more complicated than that? If your were say an area trainer for the SE of England in a random firm with no fixed place of work and decided during your employment to move house out of the SE to say Plymouth your employer could not be expected to count the time whilst you drove back to your area from Devon as work time just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.
Last I checked, hours are not units of distance and motorways do not have a minimum speed limit.
just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.
In which your contract would include your current location as your home base and have a clause in there out that.
Last I checked, hours are not units of distance and motorways do not have a minimum speed limit.
Exactly, it is a measure of duration which is the key aspect to fatigue. Hence the right unit of measurement for this situation,.
I think he's trying to say in a slightly obtuse way.... drive slower and make sure it is over 2.5 hours.
do you check the estimated time on google using the time of travel? it accounts for jammed motorways and roadworks
When I was doing that sort of work I kept an informal travel "budget" of 10 hours a week (1 hour each way x 5 days) which I think is reasonable on top of full days - it's as far as I'd ever be willing to commute daily. If they wanted me to go somewhere 4 hours away then that's fine but it pretty much wipes out travel for the rest of the week unless I eat into the working day. The odd week over was OK as long as I balanced it out around it, if it got too regular I'd raise it.
Is it not more complicated than that? If your were say an area trainer for the SE of England in a random firm with no fixed place of work and decided during your employment to move house out of the SE to say Plymouth your employer could not be expected to count the time whilst you drove back to your area from Devon as work time just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.
Fair enough but it's not what's happened in my case, I'm still in the same house, work are still sending me round the Wrekin.
do you check the estimated time on google using the time of travel? it accounts for jammed motorways and roadworks
I didn't until this week - you better believe I do now!
I think what's being suggested is a 10mile trip at the appropriate speed could trigger 2.5hour journey time if you wanted to try it.
I don't think any company would mandate a minimum speed someone should be driving to achieve a set distance within that time frame, or a expectation that you should drive at the speed LIMIT for any duration?
Yeah, I understand, just not sure how practical that is - got a week in Bristol soon, they'll decline a hotel request because it's only a couple of hours away, not sure how likely it is to be overturned if I tell them I'll be doing 55 and therefore will be over 2.5 hours.
I'd be asking what happens when you have worked your full hours by Wednesday?
Then give them the travel time with traffic considered.
I’d be asking what happens when you have worked your full hours by Wednesday
Time off in lieu.
That month I spent traveling China, Singapore and Myanmar for work last year = muchos time in lieu.
got a week in Bristol soon, they’ll decline a hotel request because it’s only a couple of hours away, not sure how likely it is to be overturned if I tell them I’ll be doing 55 and therefore will be over 2.5 hours.
I can understand not wanting to pay for hotels for day trips (though I'd be a bit cross about it), but if you're there for the entire week that's absolutely ludicrous. If they won't budge on that I'd be seriously job-hunting.
For what it's worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am. I've just got home around 30 minutes ago. Not a wink of sleep between us. And we're back in at 4 am tomorrow.
For what it’s worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am. I’ve just got home around 30 minutes ago. Not a wink of sleep between us. And we’re back in at 4 am tomorrow.
FWIW your a bunch of ****ing idiots and probably a danger to others on the roads. There is some serious liability there if something goes wrong. What does your company policy on travel and working hours say?
Have you discussed this with the person that approves hotel bookings/your expenses? Call me crazy, but it's worth a shot if you haven't.
Exactly, it is a measure of duration which is the key aspect to fatigue.
This. Any company that expects you to drive around should have a fatigue policy. There will be total daily limits etc. Also if I remember correctly there is a restriction on the time between shifts of 11 hours. You may also fall under this.
If you are conducting training then I assume being on time in the morning is pretty important for company reputation.
Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.
As others have said it depends if this is your / there usual place of work. If you take a job 2hr away or move 2hr away from work that is up to you but if you are traveling on behalf of work it's work time. I travel abroad about 12 times a year but even if it was still in the UK it would make no difference. Travel for work is work.
Following the ECJ reference above, if travel time counts as work time for staff with no fixed work place, could the work & travel time aggregated for that Bristol trip push your hourly pay for that week under the minimum pay rate?
For what it’s worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am.
Was it a sec18 search? I’d be very reticent about those sort of hours nowadays as anything goes wrong you’ll get hung out to dry. I’ve also been coming home after similar on the m1 and woken to see that the driver was asleep, which pretty much brought to an end my working ridiculous / dangerous hours
75miles and/or "at management's discretion" here. Lots of good advice on here already re: working time directive and time taken driving to/from your place of work.
What you state in your original post seems unreasonable to me.
Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.
As others have said it depends if this is your / there usual place of work. If you take a job 2hr away or move 2hr away from work that is up to you but if you are traveling on behalf of work it’s work time. I travel abroad about 12 times a year but even if it was still in the UK it would make no difference. Travel for work is work.
Its the “usual” place of work in this particular situation.
Its accepted that coming in late/early then apply some sense of reasoning to the time you are in, then buggering owf is all accepted.
In the OP’s case I too would count travelling time into “working hours”
I think we're not allowed to drive more than 200 miles and do a day of work.
I'm not sure because they always offer a hotel even if it's less, if the customer is paying. I've had regular hotels 75 miles from home.
"Yeah, I understand, just not sure how practical that is – got a week in Bristol soon, they’ll decline a hotel request because it’s only a couple of hours away, "
Used to do training at a satellite branch 2 hours away.
Used to leave at regular work time and get to plant about 9.30 and leave again about 2..30 in afternoon so we were back in home location at lousing time.
Worked out well .
Working time directive is pretty clear on this
Driving time counts as working time. YOu must have and cannot opt out of having 11 hours rest between working shifts ( except in very rare circumstances) You cannot be made to work more than 48 hours a week unless you sign the opt out
There are also regulations about driving times
Join a union!
OP, IT training? New(ish, about a year) owners a VC company?