We have oaid enough.in that if it had been ivested it wlll would cover cliability many times over given interst on the investment
Givernment stole the fund then use that as an excuse ti cut iur oensions
Can we have that in English?
Ranso.
Its only unfunded by your defintion because governments spent the fund.
Its only unfunded by your defintion because governments spent the fund.
It's not my definition: it's what it is.
Underwritten by the exchequer means they get the surplus or cover the deficit. Simple.
Typing on a phone in a tent with fat fingers is tricky
Where does our contributions go?
@ransos. Rule 1, eh? It's fairly clear what TJ's saying. Even in his chosen medium of hieroglyphics.
There is no deficit. Its in surplus and has been ever year.
So you want to cut our pensions because the government spent the money wr putbin
Nice
They cover the cost of pensions in payment
Lolz @ stabiliser
Where does our contributions go?
To the government.
And year 1 when no pensions were paid?
The annual srplus?
But then again, I'm not sure as I'm a clown ant ItS aLL tORy liEZ
And year 1 when no pensions were paid?
The annual srplus?
I have no idea what this means. I also don't know why you keep talking about a surplus. Perhaps a review of employee vs employer contributions would be illuminating.
We pay in more each year than is taken out in pensions. Thats the surplus. Its been like that every year of the nhs.
How would you feel if yku paid into a pension and when you come to collect it you are told you are not getting what you paid for sirry. We spent the money.
Thats whats what you are giving cover to.
There is no separate fund because its been spent
We pay in more each year than is taken out in pensions
Your contributions are vastly outweighed by your employer's contributions.
There is no separate fund because its been spent
There's no fund because it's unfunded. It isn't hard to understand.
Additionally in the early days of the NHS there was no contribution. Pension contributions are a relatively recent thing, starting in the 70s or 80s.
TJ you do realise that the guaranteed and index linked pension you get is worth significantly more than the contributions you paid in (even with high levels of growth)?..... thought not.
Your contributions are vastly outweighed by your employer’s contributions.
How's that different from any funded pension?
How’s that different from any funded pension?
Where did I argue that it is? The point is that for the NHS, it's government spending whether it's employer contributions or the exchequer covering a deficit.
Civil service pension is not invested either - it would be illegal if it was a private scheme..
It'd be government spending if they were paying it into a fund
Calm down, calm down! This thread is getting side-tracked.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think TJ thinks the contributions are ring-fenced (which I thought they were as well) whereas they are treated just as part of a (not large enough) single pot...
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think TJ thinks the contributions are ring-fenced (which I thought they were as well) whereas they are treated just as part of a (not large enough) single pot…
He seems to think that the government is stealing his pension. In fact, the government is paying for most of it.
Employee contributions cover the scheme liabilities, the Treasury covers the rest. Its unbelievably simple to grasp.
How’s that different from any funded pension?
Because in most pensions the employee pays more or a similar amount to the employee. Easy to forget that employers pension contributions are part of your overall salary package.
I get why TJ is angry, however it is the way the NHS and many other pension schemes are funded, it's wrong but to argue it's a Tory scam ignores the years Labour were in power and failed to address this. It's a government scam however at some point it may become a government liability if they keep driving down the number of NHS employees (paying in) vs the numbers retiring early due ironically to ill health.
Anyway… IMF have had their say on this insane “mini” budget…
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/imf-kwarteng-truss-tax-cuts-b2176757.html
IMF urges Kwarteng and Truss to rethink tax cuts in rare intervention
Mini-Budget measures will likely increase inequality, says global lender
thestabiliser how is it different?? Well my private pension is funded entirely by me (plus tax relief). My workplace pension is 5% by me 3% by my employer.
NHS pension scheme (plus I imagine Civil Service and Teachers pensions are similar) you’re looking at around 20% of your salary, most of which is funded by your employer - and therefore funded by the government.
The reason why my brother in law (doctor) goes on expensive holidays all the time - he earns a very good salary and also doesn’t need to throw half of his disposable income into a private pension because he has a guaranteed pension to come.
whilst I think the budget seems crazy I can't see why it's all of sudden being blamed for crashing the pound and needing emergency rate rises
conspiracy theory is *someone* out there playing the markets and shorting the pound to collapse the economy....?
what with mystery accidents happening to pipelines surely its not as daft as it sounds
all of sudden being blamed
It isn’t. It is exactly what everyone expects given everything that is going on right now. A crazy time to announce unforgivable policies.
Mini-Budget measures will likely increase inequality, says global lender
Bleedin-ell, even the purveyors of global austerity who traditionally couldn't give a toss about the devastating consequences of their brutal policies which they impose on struggling governments doesn't approve of Kwertang's mini budget because it "will likely increase inequality". That says it all really.
Although presumably the IMF would have been happier with a "balance budget" in which tax cuts were funded by cuts in government spending.
Hasn't someone told them that will come later?
conspiracy theory is *someone* out there playing the markets and shorting the pound to collapse the economy….?
No, it really is that the country has been run by utter ****-wits for the last 12 years, but since it took total leave of its senses in June 2016, where we are today was surely an inevitability?
It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just good, old-fashioned stupidity
And it’s going to get waaay worse than this too. Have you seen who the prime minister is?
We’re facing an absolutely enormous crisis and we’ve got someone nominally in charge who is out of her depth on a wet pavement
DT78
Free Member
whilst I think the budget seems crazy I can’t see why it’s all of sudden being blamed for crashing the pound and needing emergency rate risesconspiracy theory is *someone* out there playing the markets and shorting the pound to collapse the economy….?
There's a lot of people online making some compelling arguments that this is deliberate disaster economics that has made a lot of money for some Tory donors. With Truss though, I do believe it's mostly/entirely ideologically driven. Which is scary.
These days, its entirely possible I suppose. The party is riddled with corruption and a quick phone call could have made hundreds of millions for the "lucky".
@DT78 two things at play. 1. the international currency investment markets don't trust the British governments ability to pay down its debts, so it then doesn't trust the pound and buys dollars instead.
2. City speculators bet against the pound, in turn weakening it further whilst they made a boatload. No conspiracy, they're just bastards who will damage the economy in the long term to make a short term gain. They now also don't get their bonuses capped for doing this so win win for them
Although presumably the IMF would have been happier with a “balance budget” in which tax cuts were funded by cuts in government spending.
They have been clear that they think that the tax cuts for high earners should be ”reconsidered”.
Any sign of George Soros yet?
This, from 2012, is the roadmap for what they seem to be attempting now. The young guns of aggressive neoliberalism are now running the joint.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right
The basic premise is to pursue economic conditions which set the scene for a severe contraction of the state, including its welfare protections. Check out the Mark Littlewood (IEA) quote.
These think tanks stopped mincing their words some years ago - you had the likes of the Taxpayers Alliance, a kind of Daily Mail version of the IEA, suggesting a few years back that winter fuel allowances should be scrapped because the old folks weren't going to live long anyway.
It is extreme free market economics, and while a neutral onlooker might view this week's events as a disaster, it's actually possible that they are terraforming the economy to justify their next move on November 23.
Civil service pension is not invested either – it would be illegal if it was a private scheme..
It wouldn't be illegal if the liability is backed by the entity thats prints the currency, the safest thing a defined benefit pension fund can be invested in is gilts.
City speculators bet against the pound, in turn weakening it further whilst they made a boatload. No conspiracy, they’re just bastards who will damage the economy in the long term to make a short term gain.
This is so ironic, given its been the tories at the heart of this problem. Thats pretty much what their party stands for.
So when does Truss come out of hiding & fire her ex lover?
My brother has an appointment with mortgage brokers tomorrow as they were planning to move in the spring, his current deal runs out in January
The damage done by the Tories/IEA with austerity/brexit/mini budget ought to rule them out of office for a generation
https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1574879376801497089?t=OW9_1cvRYl3q6ExkPMd1fA&s=19
So it's going to be a brutal 5 year plan for austerity....
Yeah just what the country needs 😳
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1574864665481551875?t=78MQ1bGB1207qFB29gGTKA&s=19
kimbers
Full Member
So it’s going to be a brutal 5 year plan for austerity….
My son joined the fuzz a while back.... I've been telling him that he is likely to be facing large scale civil unrest over this governments policies.
He's still in training but been told that riot control is now treated as a higher priority than it was in the past.
Frankly the country is sick of austerity to put it politely. Particularly as it will be "necessary" to pay for the tax break for the wealthy.
This won't and well.
TBF, if you ever doubt that the tories are incompetent, it's the running down of the police that should seal it. Not just because it's a stupid idea, but because they've deliberately put the country on a course where mass disorder is more likely than it's been since the 70s, and also criminalised much more of the outlets of frustration. When you look at most right wingers, they reinforce this sort of power structure- not just in numbers but with glowing support. But even a force as shitty as the Met now can't be relied on as a private army as it once was.
Forget the pound, interest rates, bonds etc. This is all about setting the scene for a massive reduction in public services, freezing spend in the NHS,Police, Fire, Education etc.
This is not an unfunded bung, they just haven't given us the bad news yet.
This is a small state project. These ****s have a very big ambitions.
