Men are still in charge of 90% of our businesses or organisations, governments and the rest
Did you see this?
[url= https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/10/economist-explains-12 ]The Economist on the gender pay gap[/url]
It helps partly explain why that is the case. I am not saying that there isn't truth in what you're saying, I think there is something in it, but how things are and why they are that way is probably not what you would expect.
The fact that there are more men in very senior positions in comapnies and government (it's very high, I don't think it's 90% anymore but I accept it's still very high) does not by defgault mean we live in unfair, discriminatory patriarchial society. It 'might' but that's only a hypoethesis. Just as likely is that we live in a world where men and women make very different choices about the lives they lead.
Porbably the reality is a bit of both. There is undoubtedly discrimination and there is undoubtedly a lot difference in choices that men and women make.
The fact that there are more men in very senior positions in comapnies and government (it's very high, I don't think it's 90% anymore but I accept it's still very high) does not by defgault mean we live in unfair, discriminatory patriarchial society. It 'might' but that's only a hypoethesis. Just as likely is that we live in a world where men and women make very different choices about the lives they lead.
Come back with proof....
To some extent, geetee, you have to acknowledge that though you may like to think it's not true if a large number of individuals happen to hold that opinion about one single person, there's a reason
Yes I do, and the comments made here really bothered me, which is why I spent the weekend checking this out with as many people who really know me as possible and they all told me the same thing.
I know what I am and how I am. I know what my neuroses are, my character flaws and failings and I am open enough to be able to tell you what they are.
In the context of this thread, they are a predisposition to be beligerant with my arguments, to be very dogmatic, to find it hard to see the other person's point of view. I accept that but for as long as those as the only things I'm being accused of, then every response here (that isn't a personal attack, and there have been a lot of those) has the potential to change my mind.
But the one thing I am not, is a mysogninist.
geetee1972, there is something genuinely disturbing in the lengths which you have gone to on this thread to justify your statements and by implication your own attitudes to women. Normal self-doubt means that most people, when they find they are so out of step with what people around them are saying, will usually stop and think and ask themselves whether they are wrong, and there will be a period of reflection and introspection. They might ask questions to clarify what others are saying, but they are otherwise fairly quiet.
Your response to being told by pretty much every other person on this thread that you are wrong, has been to seek evidence and and construct arguments to justify your views, going to quite obsessive lengths with some of your 'analysis', statistical and otherwise.
But, and I mean this sincerely since I almost certainly have a blind spot somewhere, can we do this.
Your desire to keep this thread running and discussing you/your views and beliefs, itself seems to me to be unhealthy. Rather than persisting in posting on this thread, I suggest you read the Mumsnet thread linked to earlier on, and then read it again. There are probably other similar threads on Mumsnet that you can find detailing women's experience of rape and sexual abuse - read them. While you are reading, try to imagine what it must be like for them. Take some time to think about that. Until you have done so, I would suggest you don't post any more on this thread.
Put it this way geetee. If I were a woman reading this thread, I'd probably thinking.
"Great, just when we thought we were making progress, along comes someone trying to diminish/dismiss/derail it".
Every post comes across as
"I accept that there may be a problem, but..."
Do you understand why that might be a problem?
Come back with proof....
OK but you're not going to agree with the proof so is there any point?
The article by The Economist proves beyond doubt that there is no statisticallty significant difference in what men and women earn when they do the same jobs.
Further the difference in choice women and men make is discussed here:
[url= http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Men-and-things-women-and-people-A-meta-analysis-of-sex-differences-in-interests.pdf ]Men and Things, Women and People[/url]
Now what is interesting is why the roles that women tend to choose are paid less than the ones that men tend to choose. THAT'S a question.
It also needs to be cited that the way society regards fathers (with great disparity and discrimination) is a big part of this problem.
Your response to being told by pretty much every other person on this thread
Hardly a representative sample. If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I'd be crazy. As I said before, I've checked out my ideas with a lot of other people I know personally and I get a very different response.
I suspect that the people arguing with me on this thread are doing so because they vehemently disagree with me.
Your desire to keep this thread running and discussing you/your views and beliefs, itself seems to me to be unhealthy.
I've always believed that debate is very healthy and besides, there are a lot of other people on this thread as well so if you're right, then we all need help.
OK but you're not going to agree with the proof so is there any point?The article by The Economist proves beyond doubt that there is no statisticallty significant difference in what men and women earn when they do the same jobs.
Point missed, people with the same jobs and pay has nothing to do with the disparity of people in those positions.
Now what is interesting is why the roles that women tend to choose are paid less than the ones that men tend to choose. THAT'S a question.
How about the other questions raised?
It also needs to be cited that the way society regards fathers (with great disparity and discrimination) is a big part of this problem.
It does but how does that impact the problems of habitual sexual abuse that id factually going on.
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As usual, amongst all the personal abuse - both sides have some valid points although geetee clearly has less of them, but it's all lost in increasing polarisation and ridiculous shrieking.
As for the Guardian article, I agree with most of it except...
If a woman tells you that you ****ed up, and you feel like shit, don’t put it on that woman to make you feel better. Apologize without qualification and then go away.
If I as a man, tell another male that he ****ed up - I do not expect him to make an unreserved apology and go away. I expect him to defend himself if he feels he did not **** up, the "my way of the highway" attitude creates hugely dysfunctional teams. That attitude does nothing to counter the stereotyped view of how females approach arguments (ie you can't win, so dont listen).
I'd also add that I fear that Guardian may just turn off more males to the issues that women face, than it will convince.
It does but how does that impact the problems of habitual sexual abuse that id factually going on.
Well it doesn't but I thought we'd moved on from that and were now talking about the work place and the decisions men and women make regarding their career.
people with the same jobs and pay has nothing to do with the disparity of people in those positions.
If you're doing the same job and you're being paid the same amount for it, where is the disparity?
never mind.
You're going to be needing this before long. The one you're using must be worn out by now...
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If I as a man, tell another male that he * up - I do not expect him to make an unreserved apology and go away. I expect him to defend himself if he feels he did not * up, the "my way of the highway" attitude creates hugely dysfunctionl teams. I feel that this is why workplace spats amongst males end more quickly than they do betwern female colleagues.... but hey.
If only men and women were equal in society and we didn't have to pass laws to try and make it happen.
If you're doing the same job and you're being paid the same amount for it, where is the disparity?
If you chances of getting that job are lower,
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If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I'd be crazy
Third wave feminism promotes ownership of reproductive rights, better employment rights, and opposition to physical/ sexual abuse.
It's often just because mothers get longer/better paid maternity leave.
It goes way beyond that; it pervades all kinds of societeal attitudes and norms not to mention the legal system which has been utterly flacid in addressing the huge number of wrongs that women (as mothers) have done to the fathers of their children regarding access.
If only men and women were equal in society and we didn't have to pass laws to try and make it happen.
Like I said before, the wrongs are on both sides and if you think women dont have power in society, then you've clearly not got children.
Third wave feminism promotes ownership of reproductive rights, better employment rights, and opposition to physical/ sexual abuse.
All positive and laudible things.
It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of 'white male privilege', which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.
Like I said before, the wrongs are on both sides and if you think women dont have power in society, then you've clearly not got children.
If you think that then I expect you have not had a serious conversation with a woman. You need to get out of your bubble and see the real world.
You're going to be needing this before long. The one you're using must be worn out by now...
I thought he was using one of those machines they built the Channel Tunnel with
If only men and women were equal in society and we didn't have to pass laws to try and make it happen.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here, I disagree with little in that article other than that line - and perhaps the one where we are also then asked to protect women in all situations (isnt this a bit patriarchal and infantalizing??? ). The whole tone of the article was pleasantly patronising as well, like I said, I don't feel it will do anything to actually bring more men on board.
It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of 'white male privilege', which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.
It says that power in society is held mostly by white men. Which is so obviously true that anyone objecting to it must have a very large chip on their shoulder.
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It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of 'white male privilege', which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.
You really aren't getting this are you? Please. Get help. You really do need it.
Which article Tom?
Guardian article... first page.
Right, nice and caught up then....
as I said before it's a good step for those who have no idea how to behave in a modern world
phwor, crikey look at the baps on that etc.
It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of 'white male privilege', which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.
It just isn't though is it?
I don't think you can convince those men anyway Mike, they already understand the morality of their actions and choose to carry on.
Instead what the Guardian appears to be doing, is winding up their own male readership.
Great idea.
Instead what the Guardian appears to be doing, is winding up their own male readership.
As a male, Guardian reader, I can assure you that the article didn't wind me up at all.
geetee1972 - Member
If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I'd be crazy.
And yet when you get that same response from a forum of wood-burning-coffee-drinking-Skoda-driving men then they are still the ones in the wrong?
Ah yes the give up approach, find the video I posted about racism and see what you think of that approach.
FWIW I will spend November beardless campaigning for Men's Health issues, none are forgotten
.
As a male, Guardian reader, I can assure you that the article didn't wind me up at all.
Maybe that is the case then, the comments section seems more frothing than usual though.
+1 ransos
As we appear to have gone full circle back to page 1, it might be worth revisiting what women feel about the situation: https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3059623-to-ask-for-a-diary-of-sexual-harassment?pg=1&order=
It just isn't though is it?
Of course it is and lots of people agree that idea.
You really aren't getting this are you? Please. Get help. You really do need it.
But with what exactly? Help me understand specifically what it is I am saying that is so morally transgressive you think I need psychiatric help?
I asked this two pages back and all I could see that was causing a problem was the suggestion that the proble wasn't asymmetric, which I explained having acknowledged the error of trying to use the term metaphotically and the idea that women score higher on neuroticism (which might lead some of them to experience the otherwise innocent approach to them as harassment) and men score lower on agreeableness (which might make them more likely to be confrontational, rude or even aggressive).
Why does that lead you to think I need help?
And yet when you get that same response from a forum of wood-burning-coffee-drinking-Skoda-driving men then they are still the ones in the wrong?
Oh the irony! I drive a Skoda, have a wood burning stove and I love coffee! 😀 Seriously that did make me smile. Perhaps we're not so different afterall.
Maybe, the comments section seems more frothing than usual though.
In doesn't take very much for BTL to work itself into a froth of self-righteous indignation. Mostly by people who spend their days looking for stuff to be annoyed about.
Quick check
G20 leaders
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UK cabinet
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[/img]Equality rules
Well Zokes, perhaps the Guardian should post those horrific stories.
Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?
Equality rules
25% of them are women including the PM. Does it have to be 50/50 and if so why?
Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?
Advocating the violent overthrow of the patriarchy would be extreme. Wanting men to stop harassing women? Not so much.
Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?
How have both sides gone extreme there? One holds all the power and the other doesn't.
But with what exactly? Help me understand specifically what it is I am saying that is so morally transgressive you think I need psychiatric help?
The way you dismiss facts, try and move a discussion to what you want to talk about and dismiss facts, plus the massive whataboutery of your latest post.
As I said before, I've checked out my ideas with a lot of other people I know personally and I get a very different response.
That might just be because you personally selected the members of that group. There's another group made up of people who just happened upon your obsessive sense of grievance while browsing the OT forum.
Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?
We should look at what happens in those countries that are the most progressive in their approach to gender equality. Maybe that would help solve the argument.
Well Zokes, perhaps the Guardian should post those horrific stories.
Perhaps it should. I assume you can use email. Perhaps you could furnish the editor with the link.
25% of them are women including the PM. Does it have to be 50/50 and if so why?
close to 50/50 would show that equal opportunities were a real thing, you have a point when it's 75/25 to women based on history. Until then keep digging
Advocating the violent overthrow of the patriarchy would be extreme. Wanting men to stop harassing women? Not so much.
It's not that, it's the derisory and combatitive language and techniques used by both sides to make their points.
You are't going to convince alt righters to stop harrassing women with articles like that, they are probably going to **** themselves to death in their basements out of amusement and link and laugh about the article on various MGTOW boards.
