[Closed] #MeToo

i think someone said "never say anything that you wouldn't want to hear in prison"

^^^^Call it out when you see/hear it ^^^

Hmmm, I read [url= https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture ]that Guardian list[/url] with interest and most of it seems reasonable. Obvious even.

But... and I realise this probably places me firmly under the [i]"Don’t get defensive when you get called out"[/i] rule, but some of it seems to go well beyond treating women as equals and into giving them special privileges, which seems a bit condescending to me:

[b]"Don’t talk over women"[/b] - well that needs a caveat for a start. Talking over anyone is rude, but occasionally it might be necessary. Only doing it to men seems wrong. How about "Don't talk over people [i]because[/i] they are women"?

[b]"Don’t call women “crazy” in a professional setting."[/b] - so again I'm okay to keep calling men crazy, just not women? What about honest meritocracy? If someone does something I think is crazy then why can't I call them crazy regardless of their apparent gender?

[b]"Don’t touch women you don’t know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general."[/b] - huh? That seems a bit overly general and impractical. Should there be a no-go zone around every woman in a crowd? Should I shake men by the hand but not women? If one of those funny European-types is introduced to me and makes to kiss my cheek should I back away if they are female? If I need to get past a woman can I touch her arm near the elbow like I would a man?

[b]"Learn to read a f*****g room."[/b] - not sure how my lack of social skills makes me a misogynist?

[b]"Don’t make assumptions about a woman’s intelligence, capabilities or desires based on how she dresses."[/b] - in an ideal world sure. But again, I do that with men, so why not women? Other women certainly do it!

"Don’t call women “crazy” in a professional setting." - so again I'm okay to keep calling men crazy, just not women? What about honest meritocracy? If someone does something I think is crazy then why can't I call them crazy regardless of their apparent gender?

I take your point, but there are some adjectives that usually seem to be used when describing a woman or a girl. For example, you don't tend to hear men or boys described as "bossy" or "dizzy".

and Little Madam or Dopey Mare have no male equivalent.

"Don’t call women “crazy” in a professional setting." - so again I'm okay to keep calling men crazy, just not women? What about honest meritocracy? If someone does something I think is crazy then why can't I call them crazy regardless of their apparent gender?

it's loaded because it can be a bit of a dog-whistle term. It's used by many to imply that women are erratic, hormonal, emotional types who can't do logic or reason. Which is a popular contention among prats, but if it seeps into popular consciousness it can be one of the many, tiny reasons that women are less likely to get into senior positions etc

and Little Madam or Dopey Mare have no male equivalent

Little sh1t

Dopey Tuesday?

Also from the Guardian list:
[b]If a woman says no to a date, don’t ask her again.[/b]
If I'd followed that one I would not have been married for the last 20 years. List is way too simplistic on the whole.

There is an interesting/scary Instagram account called @dearcatcallers Basically, whenever the young lady is cat called, she takes a selfie with the "gentlemen" in question. She looks mightily pissed off, and the guys seem oblivious.
Who brought these people up? Where did they learn that this was acceptable? I was taught by both my parents, that you don't treat other people like this.

As with most things in life, it can be summed up by Adam Hills usual expression

"Don't be a Dick!"

Pretty simple, yet so many fall at the first hurdle

<see above>

Or, just imagine she's the Rock

[url= https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-for-men-who-dont-want-to-be-accused-of-sexual-harassment-73c45e0b49af ]the-rock-test-a-hack-for-men-who-dont-want-to-be-accused-of-sexual-harassment[/url]

The bit that grates with me is the inevitability of the comment "men have to own this problem and deal with it".

No, I don't. In the same way I don't collectively blame women for all being desperate cheapskates every time I get asked "so do you want to buy me a drink?"

That's just as likely to be the result of neuroticism (which women score higher on) than actual threat though.

Just as likely, eh?

Got the stats for that, you colossal bell end?

@dearcatcallers

I bet secretly they love it.... Boosts their self-esteem no end.

But by the same token I used to get wolf whistled by women when working on a roof topless in summer* (admittedly this was a few years ago when I was young and lean). When up London one time this middle aged lady flashed her tits at me with any provocation!

#metoo

* I was topless, not the wolf whistling women.

Just as likely, eh?

Got the stats for that, you colossal bell end?

What that women score higher on neuroticism than men? Yes. Plenty.

The reaction to that comment is unsurprising. It's certainly contentious and It might be true in some instances, that is, it might be that a person scoring high on neuroticism might well interpret someone forced to stand close to them on a crowded tube as 'rubbing up against me' (which was my specific point). That's bound to happen and I'm not remotely saying that someone who was actually assualted should blame anyone other than the perpetrato. But that wasn't really my point.

My point is this.

ITS NOT AN ASYMMETRIC PROBLEM!

Stop making out like it is. Plenty of men, myself included, have been victims of assault and harassment by women, many times. It happens but we all conveniently don't talk about it and we're all blythly letting certain parts of society create a narative that this problem is only something that men do to women and that's a complete falsehood and motivated far less by exposing injustice and far more by power and politics.

Reading through that Guardian list left me a bit drop jawed. Corporate cultures and office politics vary but that's a pretty depressing read if represenative of the journalist's personnal experience. Trust women but assume all men are manipulating, sexist, sex-starved perverts is the sub text. But nearly all the people I meet (men and women) are so close to 'normal, reasonable, polite, diplomatic, sensitive, thoughtful, caring, honest, trustworthy' that if someone is pointed out as a pest then the last thing to do is immediatley take sides.

As mentionned before I dance rock and roll. This involves contact and being careful with what you do with your hands. One of the youngest women, 18 I think, complained of one guy leering and being more touchy than the moves required (he's three times her age and my 19-year-old descibes his lady friend as "bien foutue"). So should I have created a fuss, called him out, or just observed discretely - and engaged my brain. The guy was in a music group with the girl's divorcing wife, the girl didn't seem keen on the guy being around her mother. So if I'd said/done anything would I have been manipulated into giving a good guy a bad reputation or addressed a genuine problem? Nothing said, nothing done, a few years later I'm sure doing nothing was for the best.

Plenty of men, myself included, have been victims of assault and harassment by women, many times.

As you love statistics, go and find out how many men make up "plenty" and how many women make up the quantity of "plenty" that they experience. It's obviously a nuanced situation but, in broad brush strokes, more women than men are victims of this sort of behaviour. Admitting there is a problem with the way women are treated doesn't diminish anything for anyone else. It's just bullshit to suggest that you're somehow lesser because people are rightly pointing out that women get a lot of shit from men.

it's loaded because it can be a bit of a dog-whistle term. It's used by many to imply that women are erratic, hormonal, emotional types who can't do logic or reason

"Can".

But likewise it can just be used to say you think someone's actions are irrational - with no particular reference to their gender.

Trawl through the Trump thread and I'm sure you'll find dozens of instances of him being called crazy. (In a "professional setting" he was recently called a moron. 😆 ).

Perhaps that rule should be more like "Don’t call women “crazy” just [i]because[/i] they are women"?
Or maybe "Don't insult people based on their gender?"

ITS NOT AN ASYMMETRIC PROBLEM!

I think it is actually, I think more women are victims than men.

#metoo

I suspect everyone has had unwanted attention of that kind at some point. Just the power dynamic means men shrug it off more easily, as it's unlikely that it'll go beyond being groped/jumped on in a nightclub without the person trying it on getting thumped in the chops, it's somewhat different if you're a girl and it's a 6ft+ bloke getting a bit too forward.

Why not just carry a shitty stick to beat them off with geetee?

It must grow tiresome, I'm sure...

What that women score higher on neuroticism than men? Yes. Plenty.

The reaction to that comment is unsurprising. It's certainly contentious and It might be true in some instances, that is, it might be that a person scoring high on neuroticism might well interpret someone forced to stand close to them on a crowded tube as 'rubbing up against me' (which was my specific point). That's bound to happen and I'm not remotely saying that someone who was actually assualted should blame anyone other than the perpetrato. But that wasn't really my point.

Either you're dumber than you usually seem or you think we are.

I want the stats that show at least 50% of sexual harrassment against women is actually down to them being neurotic and getting the wrong idea. That's what you claimed in your absurdly offensive post up there.

ITS NOT AN ASYMMETRIC PROBLEM!

It literally ****ing is, get your head out of the sand. I sincerely hope you don't have children.

For geetee
[img] [/img]

imnotverygood - Member

Also from the Guardian list:
[b]If a woman says no to a date, don’t ask her again.[/b]
If I'd followed that one I would not have been married for the last 20 years. List is way too simplistic on the whole.

Last month there was a story on the BBC about a woman who was raped, as she tried to get help the first person she approached for help also raped her. This week there was a story about a young woman who was victim to 3 separate serious sexual assaults, separate incidents by different attackers within a minute time period.

I think I am (maybe we all are) starting to realise the scale of the problem is much much much bigger than I could have comprehended. I don't know what the solution is though, but with the scale of the problem there has got to be a big revision in the way the legal system looks "sexual consent".

I want the stats that show at least 50% of sexual harrassment against women is actually down to them being neurotic and getting the wrong idea.

I don’t need to since the data that suggests the acts themselves were anything other than innocent but misinterpreted is similarly vague and lacking in robustness. But that’s not the point. Everyone here is arguing that because one side of the problem might be bigger than the other, therefore the smaller side is unimportant. This isn’t a dick swinging contest.

As for all the other **** face remarks about my comment of being a victim of abuse (binnners Ethan al) go **** yourselves but thanks for proving my point that when a guy stands up and says he’s been the victim of abuse, all you do is throw shit at him. Well done boys well done.

Perhaps you're just being over-sensitive and simply imagined the unwanted attention from the opposite sex, through your own nuerosis?

Apparently thats more common than you think

I don’t need to since the data that suggests the acts themselves were anything other than innocent but misinterpreted is similarly vague and lacking in robustness. But that’s not the point. Everyone here is arguing that because one side of the problem might be bigger than the other, therefore the smaller side is unimportant. This isn’t a dick swinging contest.

The thing is, if men suffered from sexual harassment to such an extent, why is it only brought up as a counter to women raising awareness about their situation.

Fine, if you believe that sexual harassment of men is a serious issue then bring it up, but in its own time, not when women are making the point.

Perhaps you're just being over sensitive and just imagined the unwanted attention, through your own nuerosis?

Well that quite common among victims of abuse. So that explains me Binners. What’s your excuse for making shitty comments?

Could you just clear something up and define this 'abuse' you're constantly subjected to by the female population for me please?

What level are we talking here? And by whom?

Everyone here is arguing that because one side of the problem might be bigger than the other, therefore the smaller side is unimportant.

You are literally imagining this, I think you must be neurotic.

You are literally imagining this, I think you must be neurotic.

That's not fair. All we can say is that it is "just as likely" he is imagining it.

Bit double standards innit to start demanding that a self proclaimed victim of sexual abuse should describe their level of abuse so that you can judge whether to take them seriously or not! Wth!? You can’t discount a person’s abuse claims just cos they said something you don’t like up the thread a bit. Or this is some classic “made you think trolling”, bravo

You can’t discount a person’s abuse claims just cos they said something you don’t like up the thread a bit.

Even if the thing they said up the thread a bit was that we [i]should[/i] discount 50% of abuse claims by women because they are neurotic and imagine it?

Hmmmmmmmm....... double standards eh?

You've read his posts about all these women who are just neurotic, and the abuse is inagined, right?

Though when asked what level this 'abuse' that he's constantly subjected too, he's suddenly gone all coy

I'm calling BS in an attempt to mitigate the dismissive misogynistic and made-up claptrap he's been spouting

EDIT: Tell you what.... let's forget about his own abuse then,and the obvious hypocrisy involved in bringing it up, and let's just get him to supply any evidence to justify the total nonsense he's claiming about equal levels of abuse against men as women. Or that women's 'abuse' is imagined due to their neurosis (tsk..... women, eh?). Something he's repeatedly failed to do when asked.

Is that better?

Your questions are getting close to abuse, Binners. I'm not about to defend GT's comments but equally I don't want to know the details of what's behind them. You're doing exactly what #MeToo denounces and whether your target is a man or a woman you're going to far. The parody you did was as far as you needed to go to make your point, going further is abuse.

This forum isn't exactly women friendly but it isn't hostile either. On BikeMagic new female contributors were assumed to be trolls and abused. Two women got throught the initial abuse and became regulars - one then recieved abusive communications of a sexual nature off line.

GT is socially aware, asks questions of himself and us. I read his contributions with interest, deabte with him on his photography threads, sometimes agree, sometimes disagree. If he says he's abused by women that's good enough for me on this thread, no-one is going to suffer from me making a bad call so I'm not going to call him a liar, and don't believe he is - go back to that Guardian list. He's being frank, a risky strategy.

[s]Binners [/s]and Alpin unless you have someting useful to contribute to the thead I suggest you leave before you are given a forced break.

Actually I’ve read more of the thread and Binners is calling out GT not bullying him.

Much better after the edit, Binners. I reported the thread before you edited then reported a second time after your edit to edit my report. still following? 😕 I don't often report threads becuase I reckon people can look after themselves - this time, and in the context of a thread on victim blaming and victims being called liars, I reported.

GT is socially aware, asks questions of himself and us.

I'd question the first assertion.

And he does ask questions, oh god does he ask questions. He never ****ing learns anything from the answers though.

In fact can we just retitle this thread #aboutmetoo

Geetee, I'm sorry to hear that you've been a victim of abuse. I've spent years working with both victims and perpetrators of abuse and the main thing I've learned is that trauma expresses itself in so many different ways. Despite that, trauma is still trauma and you have my sympathy.
That being said, your comments regarding the numbers of women dealing with harassment and abuse are unfair, you don't get to judge others' experiences, just as others don't have the right to judge yours.
For some of you having a go at geetee, he's said enough questionable shit that you can challenge without resorting to bullying.

He never **** learns anything from the answers though.

I reckon he does, check out his contributions to the photography thread in the light of debates on the ethics of photographing strangers and what constitutes voyeurism. I used to feel uncomfortable with the way he portrayed some of his subjects (and the choice of subject), his recent pics on here are more sympathetic to the subject and there's a bit more information about them so they are people not objects. He's the artist, I'm the spectator, I still feel provoked sometimes but that's part of his art, I think.

So, to summarise....

My abuse is real! Yours? You probably imagined it? Time of the month, luv?

I don’t think I owe anyone an explanation, but in the interests of a cause I believe very strongly in (which is that the instance of abuse of all forms experienced by men is both massively under-reported and not taken remotely seriously) I will share some of my story. And yes it will be about me but hey, screw you, this happened to me. If you don’t like to read it, fine.

My experiences fall into two broad categories. The first relates to the long term, sustained and deeply traumatic (mostly) emotional abuse I was subject to at primary school. This was not sexual in nature or indeed in the category of sexual harassment or assault on which the #MeToo campaign is focused, though it did involve actual physical assault by teachers.

The second set of experiences are the subsequent struggles I’ve generally experienced in life as a result of being pretty screwed up by what happened to me as a child. I confess I found it very difficult to integrate within the world of work and I’m fully aware of the failings I have been guilty of that made me a challenging person to be or work with. I’m not on a spectrum; ironically and perhaps thankfully, I’ve always been incredibly self aware but the scars you carry with you make you very predisposed in other social interactions, to being a bit of a mess. As someone else pointed out, trauma stays with you and expresses itself in any number of odd ways. The primary school element then is relevant but only indirectly. It would take a book to explain the full extent of the abuse but suffice to say in summary, that from the age of five to 11 when I left the school, I was sat on my own (by the teachers) the entire time. On many occasions the teachers organised to send me to Coventry, I was locked in cupboards, I was made to copy out the dictionary while everyone else watched cartoons for a Christmas treat. Of course it wasn’t all entirely without provocation on my part, but what can a five year old do that would warrant you threatening them with violence?

I was able to leave behind a large part of the problem in primary school, but my experiences at secondary school were in parts also pretty bad though this was confined now to issues with just other pupils rather than also teachers. In addition to the legacy nickname of ‘Alien’ or ‘Psycho’ following me around (a hangover from primary school and something which everyone, including the teachers, had called me), I had a period of about two years where a particular group of girls decided to make me a project. It started with simple sexualised name-calling that was incredibly upsetting and very embarrassing given that I was 14 and really struggling with my confidence and puberty. It progressed to violent attacks where they would approach me and kick me repeatedly in the shins, banking on the fact that I wouldn’t hit a girl. When that didn’t provoke a reaction they started targeting my genitals. Shortly after that my tolerance ran out and I warned them that if they didn’t stop, I was going to retaliate. Of course when I finally did snap, it did not turn out well for me.

Most of the experience since then I’ve sort of just taken for granted. I have ended up being OK in general; well adjusted, married with two fabulous boys and reasonably successful at work (though I’ve been fired from four different jobs to get to this point), but on whole all has worked out well. Recently however the barrage of media reporting on the experiences of women (and the subsequent emergent idea that there is something in opposition called ‘white male privilege’ which I detest and am on record on here for doing so), has really started to bother me. Coupled with a marital relationship that has been very challenging and has on many occasions been emotional abuse (because my wife has had prolonged periods of PND that have made me the punching bag) and challenges at work this year in particular, have made me reflect that my experiences, while relatively normal in adult life, still border on harassment and abuse. I’ve explored this with other men and have not been entirely surprised to learn that my experiences are not remotely unique.

So, this includes things like being bullied by my first boss (who was female) to the point that she openly said to me, in front of the four other female team members I worked with (I was the only man), that while I was good at my job she thoroughly detested me as a person and only put up with me because I was good at what I did. There was also the subtle kind of joking designed to emasculate you. I’ve had another female boss routinely call me ‘babe’ in the office, frequent placing her hand on my knee during both one to one meetings and while in the general open plan office. I’ve had women denigrate me to my face and in front of others about my importance and role as a father at home, saying that ‘it’s different for men, you’re not as important when it comes to bringing up children’. And yes, I’ve been groped in the street quite a bit, not routinely but certainly enough to know I’m not imagining it.

Does any of this bother me? Yes and no. I learnt to be pretty resilient so while right now, I confess, my demons are making me struggle, I know I can engage with them and get myself over it. What bothers me is the fact that it’s generally ignored, overlooked or derided and made fun of as has been very ably demonstrated on this thread. That boils my urine more than anything else. My examples may be relatively low level (I’ve not been raped for instance, which is a transgression that horrifies me), but that they aren’t unique. They are quite common. I have at least half a dozen other similar stories from close male friends that are as bad and in many cases even worse than this.

Do I think that more women than men experience this issue? Yes, but so what. This isn’t a, pardon the deliberate phrase, dick-swinging contest. You don’t get to erase one half of the narrative just because more of your gender has had a bad experience (and that is precisely what is happening in some circles and you’re a fool if you can’t see it).

As I already said, a lot of this has nothing to do with challenge injustice and equality and everything to do with power, which is always what harassment is actually about.

Now, regarding my comments on neuroticism, yes, they were trolling remarks, I’ll admit. But there is also something in them that needs to be considered. In general women are far more pre-disposed to neuroticism than men and that does change the way that people experience and perceive things. It can absolutely lead to paranoia and misinterpretation. This is something I am sure I am also guilty of and I know for a fact that I score higher than the average man on neuroticism, perhaps not surprisingly. But really that debate has to be for another post.....

Yes, but so what.

Oh, ok. So the whole Harvey Weistein thing shouldve been ignored? Cos there are men that get abused too?
I clearly don't understand what you're trying to say, because to me, its like you can't speak out about any issue, cos hey, there's another issue over here. Whataboutery, I believe it's called.
I hope I'm wrong and someone explains what you are actually trying to say.

Yes, but so what

And why is this only brought out when women raise the issue if not to undermine their case.

If you have an issue with abuse, raise it in a way which does not appear to diminish someone else's case