Nice.
Just a question for the parents on here. I am currently based in the USA and it surprised me to find out that they expect the kids to do what seems like 3-4 hours of homework each night including interactive stuff on the internet and most of the parents expect to tutor the kids for 1-2 hours.
It might be the aspirations of the guys I work with but just wondered how this compares as I certainly did not have that level of work to do outside of school
You're on a bike forum. Do you ever read any of the other threads? Everyone on here is an expert bike mechanic and shopkeeper (apparently).mattrgee - Member
I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!
I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!
Possibly because we all have thousands of hours of watching teachers doing their jobs?
I can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.
... that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.
That's the point. It's bloody hard with little reward, and getting harder.
In an offshore environment, a 84 hour working week is normal and you also get meal breaks, so probably more like 77, however, this is normally for a 2 week or max 4 week period and you don't have anything else to do, no cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. It's also followed by a matching leave period.
A good friend of mine works offshore, welding rigs back together. He has a pretty dangerous job as he's often dangling over the North Sea with a load of heavy and highly explosive kit. He's trained - high ropes courses, various welding tickets - but he's not got a three year degree and a one year PGCE (equivalent of a Masters) plus a year of NQT to do his job. He also does 12 hour days for his shift. That said, he does 12 hour days that are very, very broken up by breaks that are legally enforceable - I don't believe he'll do much more than an hour and a half in one hit. If the weather's foul he doesn't go out, bearing in mind he's in the middle of the North Sea.
For every week he's on the rig he also gets that off - strikes me as a better deal than a teacher's holiday. He also gets paid a damn sight more.
This isn't intended as a dig: what I am saying is the two are not particularly comparable.
I can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.
But you don't have first hand experience of it. You have second hand experience of it; you have first hand experience of being a student.
You'd be quicker listing the jobs that DON'T need doing.
What I meant was that in some jobs, if you refuse to do more work your employer's bottom line is all that's affected - and they will (or should) eventually hire more people or reorganise the workload. But that starts with you saying no.
In other jobs, if you say no to extra tasks then third parties are directly affected. People would die, houses would burn down and so on. You simply can't say no. And in this modern austerity world the employers (often the government) know this and take advantage of it.
I didn't particularly like my current job (local authority children's homes, very long hours, increasingly poor pay, bullying management and high staff turnover). My wife suggested I give teaching a go, so I looked into it.
**** that, I said.
Yup. In a sane world, the most critical jobs would be treated the best and valued the most. Instead, we get "It should be a vocation not a job" "You're just greedy if you put yourself before kids", "Oh so now I'm supposed to look after my own kids am I?" "you're putting lives at risk", "they should be banned from striking". The more essential the job is, the more dickish we are when dealing with the people that do it.
The reason I call BS on teachers routinely working 60 hrs per week, is that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.
Which is why my wife (who is also a teacher) has recently given up her job to look after our daughter, she is also going to be doing some child minding to bring in a bit of money. If I was a single parent I doubt I'd manage the job as it currently stands.
Most teachers spend the first part of the holidays recovering - literally! Almost every year I reach the summer holidays and as soon as relax I develop a nasty cold or cough 😐
Stop the clock. Going home...do I win anything?
Get on with the marking... 😉
Km79. You're right if teachers said enough en masse then things would change. Exactly what's been done in Scotland. To cut a long story short. Assessments used to be marked externally and payments were made, these moved to internal marking no payment. Lots of other encroachments on time. eis members worked to rule. Now things are set to change according to the politicians.
The more essential the job is,
Who defines what an essential job is?
Guardian now have an article up by a teacher emphasising Scotroutes point about learning to say 'No'
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/burnout-teachers-teaching-extra-work ]Guardian linky[/url]
You're right if teachers said enough en masse then things would change
What, like striking? Its not helping imo. Scotland has a somewhat different political context.
dragon your point is valid but suggesting that all teachers in england are too wet to say no whilst those in scotland can manage it doesnt wash.
That article is also shit in that it says **** all about what corners to cut. The interesting but was about teachers with 10+ years experience ate as rare as hens teeth may help explain much of the issue. I have that level of experience and can keep things on an even keel by knowing where to cut. Most havent learnt that yet. I also have the advantage that management leave me alone whilstvthe less experienced are checked and pushed to death.
PE Teacher here, Im in around 7.30, leave around 5.30 each day. Friday leave at 3.30. Fixture will mean I get back to school around 6ish, sometimes later. Cricket in the summer might be 8, but im being paid to umpire a cricket game (hopefully in the sunshine).
I feel like I work hard, im exhausted by the time the holidays come around. I don't do any work in the holidays or weekend. Rarely take work home.
I love my job, I think there are definately harder jobs and I wouldn't teach a different subject, they are heroes, When I think how long my marking etc... takes for my few classroom lessons there is no way I would be a teacher of anything else. They work really hard.
But I don't think teachers are heroes, the pay is good, we get lots of time off, I don't think we are under the crazy pressure and targets of some private sector people. Maybe our pay reflects that?! I am under no intention of retiring early....35 years to go! 😀
Just to state the obvious, it's not the job of teachers to resist unreasonable demands from institution and management; it's the job of management to avoid making unreasonable demands.
gobuchul - MemberI can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.
Professional gobshite?
PE Teacher here,
No one gives a shit what you think 😆
Scotland has a somewhat different political context.
and weaker educational attainment despite the SNP's rhetoric - no surprise there though
Literacy and numeracy standards
Educational equality
PISA scores (FWTW)
Student grants
Transparency of performance
Good old SNP - you're safe in their slippery hands
How are you comparing thm. If you compared scottish to similar socio economic areas of england and wales how does it look?
Partially and where relevant
Northwind management are people also, they make mistakes or don't have the whole picture. In the best places I've worked management push everyone hard but also listen and take on board issues. A them and us attitude never leads to good performance.
dragon - MemberNorthwind management are people also, they make mistakes or don't have the whole picture.
If 1/5 teachers are working a 60 hour week, it's not because managers are making mistakes or don't have the whole picture.
Is it because they are inefficient? 😉
Partially and where relevant
Eh?
Is it because they are inefficient?
Yes, because OFSTED and therefore SLT dont look at outcomes enough they look at the process too much and this is whats fed down.
Teamhurtmore - I know there are a few ways that I could be more efficient. But there are some where I definitely can't. I'm still working pretty much 60 hours a week.
Matt_SS_xc - I'm not sure I agree that teachers get paid well. Certainly someone who has been teaching for a good few years will get paid a reasonable amount. But someone in their first three years of teaching will be working as many or more hours than an experienced teacher. They will be under the same or similar pressure as any other class teacher (excluding those with TLRs or in SLT) but will be getting paid £22-26k per year - with no guarantee any more that they will achieve a pay award. In your second year of teaching in a Primary school you are likely to be made subject leader but are unlikely to get extra money for being one even though it means more work. It's the same at many Primary schools.
The school I am at is changing to a Primary school in the next year. I was having a discussion today with the head about some of the things we will have to begin to offer in Y5 and 6. We know we desperately need to start offering more after school clubs and sports teams. I'd love to run an after school sports club and a team. Coaching is one of the things that pushed me toward teaching in the first place. Given the time I have to spend on the rest of the job I'm not likely to put myself forward unless I'm given time out of the classroom to organise and plan the club. If I'm not given time the club/team would be a shambles or I'd be letting down my class by cutting corners elsewhere.
Teamhurtmore - I know there are a few ways that I could be more efficient. But there are some where I definitely can't. I'm still working pretty much 60 hours a week.
I was joking !!
I have a great respect for teachers. But what nobody seems to be able to tell me, is what do their contracts say? Are they contracted 9-5 Mon-Fri ?
If so then why aren't the teachers going to their heads and saying "if you want this marking/planning done then you need to allocate me time to do it, because come 5pm I am out of here and going home without a bundle of books."
Where do the teachers unions stand on this? Has anyone been sacked for not doing work in their own time ?
Still great respect for teachers and I think you guys should be paid double for what you do.
At work, start the clock...
is what do their contracts say? Are they contracted 9-5 Mon-Fri ?
Doesnt mention hours as I recall.
Still great respect for teachers and I think you guys should be paid double for what
Agreed, if not quite double but key question, are you prepared to pay for it? If not then these are empty words in the same way as nurses etc are underpaid.
Agreed, if not quite double but key question, are you prepared to pay for it? If not then these are empty words in the same way as nurses etc are underpaid.
yes, and nurses/NHS generally.
edit, and i don't have kids, and nor am i likely to have them. i'm also single on a (IMO) decent wage, so am probably receiving less benefit from state services than most, FWIW.
better education and better health is fundamental to improving society. not investing in these areas does the biggest dis-service to those who come after we could possibly do.
If so then why aren't the teachers going to their heads and saying "if you want this marking/planning done then you need to allocate me time to do it, because come 5pm I am out of here and going home without a bundle of books."
I think the problem is that the outcome from that would be that education and therefore results suffer, and the teacher then gets their behind handed to them for not meeting their targets (which Mrs Pondo intimates are not particularly grounded in reality anyway).
If so then why aren't the teachers going to their heads and saying "yada yada yada."
victim blaming?
Who defines what an essential job is?
Collins dictionary, for a start: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/key-worker
"(in Britain) a worker in any of a number of public sector professions [b]considered by the government to be essential to society[/b], for example [b]teachers[/b], police officers, NHS health workers, etc"
When people are asked to make an additional "investment" - ie fees - there is uproar.
Are they contracted 9-5 Mon-Fri ?
Some years ago there were notional hours per year presented in a contract I had but effectively they were meaningless as there were 'additional hours as reasonably directed by the principal to fulfil requirements' or some such wording. As it all rested on the definition of 'reasonable' it was a potential minefield.
I never spent time adding my hours up with the intention of stopping when the hours were up. I just got on with the job as well as I could which I did enjoy for almost all of the 30 years I did it.
aa nope we didn't strike the union just instigated a work to contract. 37.5hrs and keeping a note of all activities so they could be checked against locally negotiated working time agreements. The threat was enough.
When people are asked to make an additional "investment" - ie fees - there is uproar.
was this directed at me?
pay for it from general taxation, for the benefit of society at large.
ah that old chestnut
anagallis_arvensis - MemberHow are you comparing thm. If you compared scottish to similar socio economic areas of england and wales how does it look?
Being able to correctly list what the SNP have actually introduced would be a start,but SNPBAD n'kay?
A bit of digging shows the gap has fluctuated under SNP government. Down South the BBC said that pupils at "excellent" OFSTED schools do twice as well as those at "inadequate" Up here it is difficult to quantify as the SNP have based their policy on the OCED report of 2007 that suggests tackling Socio-economic factors is the key. PISA's report suggested it had improved between 2009-12, but slipped 2012-15, the most recent figures available and remains comparable to England and Wales.
ah that old chestnut
again, is this aimed at me?
um?
Going home...stop the clock!!
