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I dread to think what the other two things are.
Movies I expect.
Tragedy all round.
Recently read up on the exploits of and the issues leading up to Vasco Da Gama getting himself round the cape to India. Seems like "the west" have a lot to answer for in the state of things as they are now within the world. Great shame that as a result the extremists on both sides seem to hold sway over the passive majorities, whom I'm sure left to their own devices could find a civilised way forward.
So the photo of the attacker dominated the fron pages of all papers this morning.....
You are a miserable loner, haven't made anything of your life, dabbled in petty crime, smoked weed. Found something to make you feel good about yourself (Religion) and want to be remembered for something.
All the papers are waiting for you're deluded mix of mumbo-jumbo rammbling for your 1 minute of fame.
Grim
I don't see how it's terrorism, unless there is a new definition?
Terrorism - Noun. The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Of course it's an act of terrorism. I fail to see by what definition it could be seen as anything else, given the explicit threats and political ramblings spouted by the lunatic. It doesn't have to be organised and coordinated by some shady group, merely inspired by a common cause. Militant Islamist publications have been attempting to encourage 'lone wolf' attacks for several years now.
Seems like "the west" have a lot to answer for in the state of things as they are now within the world.
🙄
Because the Islamic religion is the common denominator in a couple of decades worth of terrorist attacks. With the terrorists quoting their religion as the reason.
Why not say "not in the name of this religion, it's peaceful and violence is wrong" ?
So the Muslim Council of Britain comes out and says exactly that (and receives very little media coverage for doing so), but that's not good enough for you? 🙄
All the coverage of this is once again an example of all the [s]worst[/s] best things you can possibly do encourage future incidents like this. Horrific as this is it's pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things - on average probably 8 people died yesterday in road traffic accidents. Meanwhile in Iraq:
KIRKUK, Iraq, May 21 (Reuters) - Several bomb blasts killed at least 12 people in Iraq on Tuesday, police said, a day after more than 70 died in attacks on majority Shi'ites, stoking fears of all-out sectarian war with minority Sunnis.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for having a sense of perspective though.
Isn't there a theory that its best not to splash the killers face/name all over the papers quite so much? He obviously wanted to be seen and heard as he was walking up to the cameras.
Isn't there a theory that its best not to splash the killers face/name all over the papers quite so much?
But unfortunately that theory is tempered by the other theory that if you don't sell papers or get viewing figures, you don't get paid.
The public gets the media it deserves. Which unfortunately is quite a damning indictment on the general public...
Isn't there a theory that its best not to splash the killers face/name all over the papers quite so much?
With regards to the guy ranting at the camera. I think they should do what they used to do to the IRA and have an actor speak their words. But it has to be the same actor that they used then. The one that did Gerry Adams. Or maybe Jimmy Krankie
It might lose some of its desired impact then
I expect I'll get flamed for this, but as sad and awful and horrific yesterdays incident was I can't help thinking the way that this has been dealt with is only going to incite hatred, and justify the continuation of unjust wars in Iraq etc... How must the soldiers family feel seeing his bloodstained killer ranting on TV every five minutes? Shocking....
These two idiots are clearly just taking a muslim slant to justify their barbaric behaviour, they insult any God they claim to represent. Can't help thinking that they way they hung around encouraging people to take pictures and giving interviews smacks of the celebrity culture that exists, albeit in an evil sadistic way. They wanted to be famous/notorious and they were disillusioned with playing xbox all day so decided to carry out this horrific act. Would be very interested to learn if they were under instruction or in communication with any terrorist/hard line muslim teachers/units or wether they were acting alone, I highly suspect the latter.
Given his accent, and his constant reference to 'our lands', I was really disappointed that he didn't finish his statement with 'ya get me blud?'
The attack was truly disgusting and the EDL's response an indication of the nasty horrible ignorant pieces of scum they really are.
In my opinion something also needs to be done about the tabloids that churn this scaremongering out relentlessly in an effort to sell papers. Thats right, give them the column inches they wanted - that'll learn them! Or how about stating that Muslims are at the root of this, that won't exacerbate the current racial tension that already exists.
You are a miserable loner, haven't made anything of your life, dabbled in petty crime, smoked weed. Found something to make you feel good about yourself (Religion) and want to be remembered for something.All the papers are waiting for you're deluded mix of mumbo-jumbo rammbling for your 1 minute of fame
Same with every mass killing, terrorist attack etc.
I wonder if the newspapers couldn't all be persuaded to show the faces of the victims in these circumstances rather than the perpetrators. Show them in photos when convicted and only on the inside pages even then. It would at least deprive them of their moment of fame.
Same with the TV news. Unless they're still at large, don't show any photos, cover their "manifesto" in any detail etc.
Seems like "the west" have a lot to answer for in the state of things as they are now within the world.
The own goal that is the oxygen of publicity being just one of those!
Basically, Terrorism, is on a par with Judo, it is the art of using your opponents strength against him. Whilst I don't subscribe to any religious view there is a lot of sense in the teaching, "turn the other cheek". Worth remembering that while we are collectively handing these loons their nasty little victory.
i'm a muslim and have been left totally aghast at the barbaric acts of these two animals...
that fact that they have tried to use religion as an excuse for their actions is completely wrong...their barbaric actions and the actions of any other muslim be it here or anywhere else in the world no not represent Islam in any way whatsoever...the same as the actions of pedophile priests do not represtent christianity or catholicism...
the fact that they were encouraging passers by to record their deeds and seemed like they were intent on getting their 15 minutes of fame and by bringing religion into it would further stoke it up...do we even know if these guys were in fact muslims?
the media has certainly not helped by labelling this as an act of terrorism...once again sensationalising the incident to sell column space...all this is doing is fueling more hatred and allowing the EDL/BNP to jump on the bandwagon...
the actions of these idiots had nothing to do with Islam and their actions will/should never be accepted by any muslim...
RIP to the poor soldier who sadly lost his life and our thoughts and prayers go out to his family and loved ones...
I wonder what the EDL think of the IRA or Catholic priests? Bet they think thats OK, they seem like a load of dense nazi thugs and nothing more to me.
well said Gonzy. They were apparently heard to be shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Great). I guess this is why it's being presumed they are muslims.
[i]Eyewitnesses say the victim was hacked to death by two men shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Great).[/i]
from BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/men-in-balaclavas-offer-soothing-prospect-of-war-2013052369728 ]Daily Mash synopsis[/url]
More credible than some of the reporting I've seen............
yes the one thing this situation does not need is a bunch of thugs showing "white Power" on the streets.
I wonder what the EDL think of the IRA or Catholic priests? Bet they think thats OK
Really? 😯
The first song in their repertoire is usually "no surrender". It's normally the second, third and fourth as well. The EDL are not renowned for complicated compositions.
Aren't they tied up with the UDL? That famous pro-catholic mens club?
Mincing around in funny masks shouldn't be much of a concern. It's not like they're blowing stuff up and kneecapping people. Extremest fail.
Probably not 🙄I wonder what the EDL think of the IRA or Catholic priests? Bet they think thats OK
Enlighten me?
The EDL in action...
"Fat Ninjas"
very good.
This is a brief synopsis of me learning a lesson.
Sas shoot ira in Gibraltar. Me jumping around like we had won the world cup.
Ira people get buried. Idiot throws hand grenade at the funeral.
People killed at funeral have a a procession.
2 squaddies end up stuck in procession.
Squaddies dragged from car and beaten to death.
A very clear line of events all linked.
You have to break the circle of violence.
As much as I'd like the 2 idiots from yesterday flayed alive ultimately it does no good.
Peace.
As much as I'd like the 2 idiots from yesterday flayed alive ultimately it does no good.
Indeed. The best thing we could do is collectively shrug, put them down as the lunatics they clearly are, and then studiously ignore them. No security crackdowns. No using it to further political agendas
I notice the security forces were straight on the bandwagon last night. Wasting no time in telling us that this demonstrates the essential need to monitor everyone's emails, mobile phones and social media use.
Erm... why exactly? I must have missed something but how would that have prevented what happened yesterday?
well said Gonzy. They were apparently heard to be shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Great). I guess this is why it's being presumed they are muslims.
i read that as well....however as sad and horrific as their actions may be the root cause of their actions need to found and stopped before more follow in their footsteps...it is all too easy nowadays for young muslims and non-muslims who convert to the religion to be radicalised with extremist views that have been twisted out of proportion and in no way whatsoever represent the tenets of Islam....
i have argued this with many learned muslims that what they preach is always their interpretation of the Quran and that it could easily be manipulated to represent the ideology of the individual rather that what is actually scripted in the Quran....hence what we are seeing today with the increase in extremism in our religion...
Indeed. The best thing we could do is collectively shrug, put them down as the lunatics they clearly are, and then studiously ignore them. No security crackdowns. No using it for your own political agendas
i agree binners...
highlighting what they have done only give more fuel to their cause...
however not highlighting their actions only leads us to think we are safe when we are clearly not...
the main reason is because the vast majority of muslims can read the Quran in arabic but would struggle to translate what they have read into their own language...they therefore rely on scholars to translate the scriptures, who are free to translate this into whatever context they please...yes you can buy a translated copy of the Quran nowadays...but who has translated this and what spin have they put on it?
as a mulsim it makes me sad to say this but this is the main reason we have these extremists in Islam...because they are left to preach about the religion as they see it and the rest of the muslim population blindly follow....
as a mulsim it makes me sad to say this but this is the main reason we have these extremists in Islam...because they are left to preach about the religion as they see it and the rest of the muslim population blindly follow....
I read a book ([url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Al-Qaeda-True-Story-Radical-Islam/dp/0141031360 ]think it was this one[/url] ) about Al Qaeda and I seem to remember it echoed some of what you said, but also that the most extreme forms of Islam were massively funded and promoted by rich Saudis/the Saudi regime as a way of proving their Islamic credentials, despite being closely allied to the west and probably not very good Muslims.
They funded hundreds of schools, scholars, teaching materials, preachers etc all espousing a very extreme, violent form of Islam basically. And that certainly at the time this was the fastest-growing form of Islam and becoming quite dominant in many areas.
Dunno how true it is but the author seems to be generally well respected.
Whether they are representative of the Islamic faith or not is neither here nor there, most of the public understand that these extremist morons are in the minority and are not a true example of what ordinary muslims believe.
However, they did what they did in the name of Islam...albeit their twisted extreme version of Islam but Islam nonetheless.
This is the problem i have with all religions....it attracts scum like this who carry out their actions in the name of an outdated faith which has no place in a modern society.
I'm staggered that in the 21st century religion still causes such friction....people are feeble and disappointing, i'd hoped in these enlightened times this kind of thing wouldnt happen....the Westboro extreme christians in the US are an example also....
....i'd section them all under the mental health act and throw away the keys.
This is the problem i have with all religions....it attracts scum like this who carry out their actions in the name of an outdated faith which has no place in a modern society.
The trouble is; scum are scum and will behave as such. If it wasn't in the name of religion, they'd just find something else to misbehave under the banner of.
The two in question are likely not intelligent and have been indoctrinated by some pervert somewhere. It's these people we need to grip, and we need the help of non-radical muslims to do it. There will never be a shortage of feeble minds to convince.
If it wasn't in the name of religion, they'd just find something else to misbehave under the banner of.
Maybe they will, maybe they wont however a reading of the Koran hardly leaves them short of justification.
This is interesting: one of the men has been named as Michael Adebolajo. Michael is a Christian name and Adebolajo is Yoruba, from western Nigeria. Most Yorubas are Christians.
I think your playing fast and loose with the term "interesting"
It's interesting to me because he is either a deranged Christian or he is a deranged Christian who recently converted to Islam. If the latter, whoever influenced him has done a particularly effective job. Maybe they recognised that he was deranged and recruited him as cannon-fodder to the cause?
I didn't think of it as being about religion directly. It's about one group (Muslims) versus another (British soldiers) not along religious grounds but as revenge for perceived injustice. That injustice being killing other members of their group in wars in the Middle East.
You could just as easily replace 'Muslim' with say.. 'white', 'american', 'aristocrat', 'communist' or any nationality, and find plenty of similar events through history.
Well, you're right, it happened in a very public place but is it any worse than two white racists stabbing Stephen Lawrence with a broken bottle?
You could just as easily replace 'Muslim' with say.. 'white', 'american', 'aristocrat', 'communist' or any nationality, and find plenty of similar events through history.
You are right however few of those you named would find specific support for their actions written in a book that dictates how they live their life.
According to the news one of them is a UK born Christian of Nigerian descent who had converted to Islam.
You are right however few of those you named would find specific support for their actions written in a book that dictates how they live their life.
I'm not sure it matters if it comes from a religious text, a political manifesto, or ideas of race and origin. My point is that there are plenty of other secular motivations for terror and generally nasty behaviour.
My point is that there are plenty of other secular motivations for terror and generally nasty behaviour.
Its very important. Can you name me a secular text that has 1.8bm adherents that includes an extensive list of sections that would be classified as hate speech.
I'm not saying for one moment that there are not a lot of nasty people around and many dont need and motivation, secular or not to commit terrible crimes.
It's a bit rich to attack the media when we have 6 pages on a cycle forum devoted to the same subject. The only thing we have in common is that we are all ignorant of the facts in the case especially the background and motivation. But the media have minutes and inches to sell and stories to make interesting and people naturally want to talk about it. Bizarrely, googling the EDL and Woolwich last night led me to the Ipswich Town supporters club website!!
But nothing is really gained from is it terrorist or is it religion debates IMO apart from (potentially interesting) speculation. So it is reported that witnesses heard "Allah Akbar" - perhaps they misheard, perhaps the criminals were religiously motivated, perhaps they and the witnesses had simply watched too many episodes of Homeland? We simply don't know anything other than one person has been killed and his family and friends must be suffering greatly. Shouldn't it just be left there?
@ Grum - there may be an element of truth in that...the saudi royal family is a strong influence over religious affairs and as Mecca is located there and is the focal point of every muslim's prayers...what they influence has a knock on effect to the rest of the muslim world....its a known fact that they have been funding the production of the translated Quran...but like you said what most people dont realise is that this version of the Quran promotes their ideology of Wahhabiism...a sect of islam which openly promotes a hard line approach to the religion that borders on extremism....
as for the saudi royal family....they're just a bunch of hypocritical tosspots who have been seduced by money and power....and many other things they shouldnt be getting involved in...
@ wrecker - its true...if it isnt religion it would be something else they would hide behind...but in this case it is religion and more specifically islam....we are already struggling to distance ourselves from the perception that we are all extremists who like to wage jihads on anyone and everyone...the actions of the minority always have sever repercussions to the greater many...this is my chance to lay the boot in at those culprits who tarnish my faith so wrongly...
@ globalti - if this is the case regarding the name of one of the men, then it makes for interesting reading as it would definitely point to the fact that he has been converted and radicalised by someone who needs to be caught...however the name michael is also accepted as a muslim name as it was the name of one the the archangels and is spelt Mikail...but usually it is frowned upon to take the name of one of the angels in islam...but you're correct that whoever recruited them did so for that purpose that they were two nutcases of low intelligence who could easily be manipulated...
Can you name me a secular text that has 1.8bm adherents that includes an extensive list of sections that would be classified as hate speech.
bible's gotta be a contender surely..?
Wow Camerons speech on the news wasn't sitting on the fence, it was quite stern IMO. Well done.
bible's gotta be a contender surely..?
I was going to say that there's a lot of stuffs in the "good" book which must qualify....
bible's gotta be a contender surely..?
I dont think the bible could be termed "secular"
In the end let's not forget that, as somebody else posted recently on STW, this is all about whose imagined best friend is better than who else's imagined best friend.
Thought this might be of interest to some...
Too many titles handed the killers the megaphone they craved. Those who quietly reject the offer of hatred and division deserve to be heard too.
[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/after-woolwich-how-media-got-it-wrong-and-how-public-can-get-it-right ]New Statesman article[/url]
[img] 
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this is all about whose imagined best friend is better than who else's imagined best friend.
No, it's not.
Can you name me a secular text that has 1.8bm adherents that includes an extensive list of sections that would be classified as hate speech.
It is a text that can be used by some as justification for violence. There are many of those. And there is lots of justification for violence that's not written in big books.
I still think the fact that it's a religious text is a red herring.
It is a text that can be used by some as justification for violence. There are many of those. And there is lots of justification for violence that's not written in big books.
But thats just a rearrangement of some words. Can you answer the question?
[url= https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/941372_387384508046417_151942173_n.jp g" target="_blank">https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/941372_387384508046417_151942173_n.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
😆
Is that real? I'll happily submit to Aslan.
the EDL advocating the wearing of the burka...
[url= https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/164940_583482965006764_643108299_n.jp g" target="_blank">https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/164940_583482965006764_643108299_n.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
bunch of ------- (insert at your pleasure!!)
Is that real? I'll happily submit to Aslan.
looks like it been photoshopped, but its funny to think of them as a bunch of idiots....
EDIT: they are idiots!! 😯
have those fellas got their mums to sew EDL badges on or do the EDL actually produce and sell their own range of balaclavas?
But thats just a rearrangement of some words. Can you answer the question?
The answer to your question is 'no' but that doesn't help us much, because I don't think your question is a good one. Which is what I was trying to say.
It's an odd look. They must have a knitwear designer in their leadership I guess.
That Russell Howard did a brief sketch on 'em a while back.....
Unsurprisingly, most seem like that.
The really sad thing is, they seem to be getting some local support following this terrible incident by preying on the fears of gullible psychos.
preying on the fears of gullible psychos.
It happens on both sides then......
preying on the fears of gullible psychos.
Don't bring the classifieds flaming threads into this.
they're so hard and fearless they have to hide their faces or maybe it was pretty cold last night...awwwwww duddums!!! 😥
they go on about no retreat to the IRA as being one of their anthems...and they're dressed like them in their balaclavas....they ridicule the burka and with their hoods up it looks like they're wearing burkas...
because I don't think your question is a good one. Which is what I was trying to say.
It doesnt matter now as we seem to have moved on to ridiculing half wits. 🙁
Don't bring the classifieds flaming threads into this.
😆
I've just watched the footage from this. Terrible thing to happen. One thing that struck me as odd but the attackers only had blood on their hands, none on their clothes. I find this odd.
5thElefant - Member
It's an odd look. They must have a knitwear designer in their leadership I guess.
Rubbish designers, they've only got a small round mouth hole, you'd only be able to insert something long and cylindrical....oh, I see!! 😯 😳
One thing that struck me as odd but the attackers only had blood on their hands, none on their clothes.
They were wearing dark clothes, blood wouldn't show up so easily and would be soaked into the fabric. Just a theory like.....
Like most terrorist incidents, the conspiracy theories are beginning 😕
If it wasn't in the name of religion, they'd just find something else to misbehave under the banner of.Maybe they will, maybe they wont however a reading of the Koran hardly leaves them short of justification.
Just enjoying the irony as the thread has moved on the the EDL who clearly have found another banner to misbehave under
[img] 
[/img]
I've just watched the footage from this.
Why?
[i]They were wearing dark clothes[/i]
I thought one of them was wearing a beige jacket.
Why? Why would I not want to watch the footage that's been all over the news.
Confirmed as fusilier bandsman drummer Lee Rigby
[img] 
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🙁
😥
Heartrendingly sad.
The victim was married with a two year old.
Help For Heroes site crashed due to high demand for tee shirts and increased donations. Well done British public! (In a perverse kind of way.)
In support I wore my 'Army' tee shirt round Belper today. Trouble is there's no one here to offend.