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IIRC armed forces (assume this includes cadets) were required not to wear uniforms when the IRA were active back in the late 70s for fear of them being targeted
Beyond the 70's and well into the 90's. It varied between units and
the alert status at any given time.
There is a new genre of terrorist, driven by the media, focussed on generating online terror. Far more scary, far more deadly. Far harder to deal with.
have a look on the BNP and EDL facebook pages at the moment
sickening
Yunki, I'd classify them in the same pool of scary, deadly loons, and won't credit them with a click.
Hope that the focus remains on the perpetrators and not a Police witch hunt, had they sent unarmed officers in to deal with armed assailants and the officers had been shot they would be criticised, they are getting some now because they sent the appropriate officers but it took time for them to be deployed. There will probably be calls for armed police.
EDL - what a pitiful waste of oxygen, can we not put them together with nutters like the perpetrators in a secure arena and leave them to it.
No uniforms off duty went into the noughties.
My wife is stationed in birmingham off barracks and they now and again get told not to wear uniform on the way home for any varying period of time.
Unfortunately no matter how the govt/world tries to change the mind of this group of people it will fail. They are extremists that will not give an inch. It's either you or them as simple as that.
Rosss - Member
Whilst I agree with Hora's and other's views I think the biggest loosers are the victim's family and friends tonight.
+1
Lets hope that people stay calm and that no one else joins them in their grief.
Many reports of the attackers shouting Allah Akbar.
I can't help thinking of this chap when I hear that
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It would be nice if there was visible and vocal support for the Muslim Council of Great Britain and their statement this evening.
The Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the Woolwich attack. "This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly," its statement said.
The Muslim Council of Britain's statement continued: "Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. We understand the victim is a serving member of the Armed Forces. Muslims have long served in this country's Armed Forces, proudly and with honour. This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonourable, and no cause justifies this murder."
CFH's post resonates with me, but more than anything I'm just gutted.
I clicked that link to the video and that made me sad. Not wishing to be dramatic but this isn't terrorism, it's a form of disease. A horrible, unpredictable one that gathers pace when you hope it's dying down.
Like a lot of things though, if it wasn't reported, it wouldn't perpetuate, and it would stop in all likelihood as the terror they now inflict is due to the graphic way it's reported, why else film it on a mobile...but that's a different, yet totally related matter.
So very sad, RIP x
We all should spare our thoughts for the guy who has been killed and his family.
Let's hope that the MET will find answers to prevent further attacks.
R.I.P
R.I.P
20 mins for an ARV to arrive is about right . I am going to guess the 999 police line was flooded with multiple similtaneous calls about a knife and gun attack.
Any SO will not send out GP to deal with this sort of incident.
serious questions must be asked of hogan howe, police commisioner, on why such a delay, when so much money is wasted each day on armed guards for politicians, the royal family and Julian assange, when the public who pay his wages are left to the mercy of 2 nutters with sharp knives.
Apparently , local plod were there in double quick time but ordered to stand down because of the firearm risk.
There are a few worries re BNP/EDL locally, centring on a certain former BNP 'head office' just 5 minutes from this incident. I seriously hope folk don't swallow their shite or it's gonna be a long few days in SE London.
bearneccessities, not sure I agree.
A trawl through a rich and growing history of violence abroad suggests that this type of barbarity is a matter of course in many countries and takes places whether or not it's reported - in fact in many of those countries those who report for a job are often a prime target. We may not hear about children being blown up on the way to school or beheadings in every day news but it's certainly happening.
Help the Hero website shop is currently down. I imagine a fair few people had the same idea/plan to show support.
We may not hear about children being blown up on the way to school or beheadings in every day news but it's certainly happening.
And much worse
Eyewitness reports on sky news say the murderers were standing around whilst waiting for police encouraging passers by to take photos on their phones, including people on a bus that had stopped! There's gonna be a fair few mobile videos that'll have been taken.
i don't understand why it's already a 'terrorist attack'. surely for that definition it has to be linked to some sort of organisation otherwise it's just a couple of loons.
has it been linked to anyone ? i don't think so.
[i]Apparently , local plod were there in double quick time but ordered to stand down because of the firearm risk. [/i]
And indeed, a barracks full of armed soldiers only yards away.
Sickening.
And indeed, a barracks full of armed soldiers only yards away.
Eh? 😕
Squaddies can't just draw a bead mate..
Much as we'd have loved to in a fair few scuffles, you can't..
There are rules for that kinda thing.
I can't get over the bravery of the women who tried to stop them, bearing in mind that they had no idea what they were capable of, most people would have thrown up I would have thought.
I think it's worth adding the second paragraph of the statement from the the Muslim Council of Britain which was posted earlier :
[i]"This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom. We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail. It is important we allow our police authorities to do their job without speculation. We also urge the utmost vigilance and ask the police authorities to calm tensions."[/i]
It's also worth remembering that there are 1.5 million muslims in the UK, bearing in mind that most could get their hands on kitchen knives it just goes to prove how unrepresentative of muslims those two individuals are.
20 Min does seem like a long time for the armed police, I used to live about 500m from there and the barrack entrance is about a only a couple of hundred meters west of where this happened with some military police all the time I seem to remember.
As others have stated I think some of the white supremacists are going to use this as an excuse to kick off. Eirith and Thames mead are just down the road and know locally to have a fair selection of psychos.
That's what I meant Nick. I'm sure once news made it to the barracks that one of their own had been attacked right outside in suspected terrorist activity, they'd have been, right to a reasonably senior level, very keen to resolve matters but ordered not to engage.
Nicely put, Ernest.
Is there no end to the amount of arseholes this world can create?
Sickening and saddening.
Really close to home for me- i live a couple of miles from there. I have friends at the end of the road on the street that this took place.
I've always felt a bit uneasy living in a place that has an army barracks at one end of town and a really big mosque at the other end.
But this is truly sickening.
Even more sickening is peoples reaction to it right now, especially on social media. Fighting talk.
I hope it's just talk.
EDL marchers have already attacked the police and are now holed up in a pub.
[url= http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/woolwich_bn_1369240158662.html ]Link.[/url]
****ed up!
And so it begins 🙄
Question from here in the US: what is the BNP/EDL referred to in some of the posts?
BNP/EDL
British National Party and English Defence League
Basically bad news- a bit like Nazis.
TBH I reckon this could seriously backfire on both the attackers and the EDL, as bigots on all sides are marginalised by a public united in their disgust at those who thrive on hatred.
And I am truly impressed with this : [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10074586/Woolwich-attack-Women-passers-by-hailed-as-heroes-for-shielding-body-of-dead-solider.html ]Women passers-by hailed as heroes for shielding body of dead soldier[/url]
There aren't many cities across the world where that would happen imo. Maybe naive, maybe stupid, but ****ing impressive.
And I am truly impressed
I agree---saw that on a video clip--especially commendable as the 2 guys were apparently still in the area. Most people either stand around and gawk ( or get out of the area) rather than doing something positive.
I really didn't want to post as I see it as subjective, & we will all have different views, so I wouldn't feel right asking others for their views, but having watched the news all night & now we have moved on to the tomorrows papers time why oh why does virtually [u]all of the media[/u] have to make it out to be worse than it was, not trying to undermine the horror of the actual event as that is clear, but the front page of the Teleghraph makes the killers hands look redder than blood itself, why try to make the hands look worse than they were? They looked bad enough to begin with 🙁
ernie_lynch - Member
TBH I reckon this could seriously backfire on both the attackers and the EDL, as bigots on all sides are marginalised by a public united in their disgust at those who thrive on hatred.
I sincerely hope you are right.
I do wish some top dog from this religion, not the council but actual senior clerics (pope esq, forgive my ignorance) would come out and condem violence in all form, say it was un Islamic etc and the perps would be going to hell.
You know where do all these idiots get the idea doing this shit is the answer.
I find it extremely disrespectful of all the papers to have the pictures of the blood stained killers all over their front pages.
I do wish some top dog from this religion, not the council but actual senior clerics (pope esq, forgive my ignorance) would come out and condem violence in all form, say it was un Islamic etc and the perps would be going to hell.
Why?
You don't get the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope making public proclamations of disgust every time some Christian nutter in America blows up an abortion clinic or shoots a doctor. I've never heard them condemning the Westboro Baptist Church for picketing soldiers' funerals with "God Hates Fags" signs. Heck, various Popes have even seemed a bit shy about saying that paedophile priests are going to hell.
I find it extremely disrespectful of all the papers to have the pictures of the blood stained killers all over their front pages.
Upsetting to see some of the footage that the BBC feel is ok to show on the news.
I have tried to write my feelings on this and they all seem pathetic. No words can sort this.
Hug someone you love.
I find it extremely disrespectful of all the papers to have the pictures of the blood stained killers all over their front pages.
Not just disrespectful (can you imagine being a friend or relative of the lad whose blood they were covered in?) but giving the murders exactly the coverage they craved and were seeking.
Mrs Toast-
Because the Islamic religion is the common denominator in a couple of decades worth of terrorist attacks. With the terrorists quoting their religion as the reason.
Why not say "not in the name of this religion, it's peaceful and violence is wrong" ?
So whilst its individuals that are carrying out these acts, they seem to be the easily influenced disaffected types often preyed on by shit stirring groups with religious or political ideology.
Deepest condolences to the family.
No idea what to say. Easy to blame muslim community, and for all the BNP/ EDL to jump on the bandwagon.
It's never that easy though.
Difficult to preach tolerance in these circumstances.
.....giving the murders exactly the coverage they craved and were seeking.
Tomorrow's Guardian front page has excelled in that respect by obligingly including the very words, boldly, which undoubtedly convey the killers central message : [url= 
]Link[/url]
RIP and thanks to the Met Police.
Because the Islamic religion is the common denominator in a couple of decades worth of terrorist attacks. With the terrorists quoting their religion as the reason.Why not say "not in the name of this religion, it's peaceful and violence is wrong" ?
Same can be said of Christianity though - there was that business with the IRA in Northern Ireland, and a good chunk of the US's domestic terrorism is perpetrated by Christian groups. Generally you don't get the Pope to the Archbishop condemning them, not because they agree with it but because its fairly obvious that the perpetrators aren't following the mainstream religion.
Tomorrow's Guardian front page has excelled in that respect by obligingly including the very words, boldly, which undoubtedly convey the killers central message
Whilst i would have preferred the image not to be on the front page I do expect newspapers to report the known facts in as great a detail as they are able to. Why would you not want to try and understand the motivation for committing such an apparently unprovoked and barbaric crime?
just because people are killed by christians doesnt mean they do it in the name of christianity.
Why would you not want to try and understand the motivation for committing such an apparently unprovoked and barbaric crime?
I don't want "You people will never be safe" to be displayed from every newsstand in every shop, supermarket, garage, airport, etc, because it is precisely what the alleged killer wanted.
I can try to understand the motivation for committing such an apparently unprovoked and barbaric crime without the need for that.
Generally you don't get the Pope to the Archbishop condemning them
I wish they would, all of them. Any hint that the crime was committed in the name of the religion, even if it is only in the warpedmind of some deranged individual, i would like to see them standing side by side and denounce it.
there are many nutcases in the world who use religion to justify there actions, however lets not loose sight of the fact that a young man has lost his life today in a most horrific way whilst walking down the street minding his own business and to to add to this the young man served our country and desrves the respect of all of us.and likewise the murderers need to face the heaviest punishment possible.lets not turn this into a debate about what religion has done what because lets face it its not a religious issue, thats just a front that people who hate life and freedom hide behind to spread fear. R.I.P young brittish artillery man.
Popes have repeatedly condemned violence. But don't let that stop this descending into another STW anti-religion thread.
Not the intention on my part Ernie, this could be an opportunity to show their relevance and value.
IanW - MemberI do wish some top dog from this religion, not the council but actual senior clerics (pope esq, forgive my ignorance) would come out and condem violence in all form, say it was un Islamic etc and the perps would be going to hell.
There's not really "heads of church" for islam in the way there are for christianity etc- you get senior representatives but there's no pope analogue or even archbishop/similiar. Also it's not a single monolithic faith, there's sects much like with christianity so it's a bit like expecting the Pope to speak out about the church of england or similiar. Not so simple, is the short answer.
RIP 🙁
m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468
Where to complain? Do we now see pics of murders with blood on them?
What if the victim was our own Mother or Brother- would you want to see this? What next? 'Heres the body closeup'?
The BBC shouldn't be this explicit. It should show a level of restraint/Decorum. The press reporting the (graphic) video can incite violence and distress.
It reporting not entertainment
Sensationalist reporting like this is just sickening. There's a fine line between reporting the facts / truth and attempting to grab viewing numbers or sales with who can publish the most explicit material to attract morbid curiosity. There should have been a media blackout of some of the phone footage as it's only benefiting the murderers and broadcasting their wishes. The number of ignorant racist comments on fb is just sad.. no doubt fuelled by the car crash reporting. My thoughts are with the poor murdered man's family today.
The only people not allowed to wander the streets of our capital freely this weekend will be the boys and girls charged with defending it. I dispair at the state of the world we live in. The likes of the women confronting these low life's and trying to help, not just gawping and taking pictures are reall heroes and reason for hope.
R.I.P
parkesie - Member
Well said sir
"I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same," he said."You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you."
Your land being where exactly, the mean streets of Sarf Larndon?
but in our land our women have to see the same
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/20/iraq-car-bombings-kill-dozens ]Sunni and Shia Muslims murdering each other?[/url]
truely barbaric acts by two insane animals...
any irony in the fact women being praised for helping the murdered soldier and no mention of the woman who shot both murderers..
Praise for the woman who shot them aswell. The only irony is that they were sorry women had to see it and then they were shot by a woman. That my friend is irony.
It sounds like by rushing the police they were expecting to be killed and become martyrs. I for one am pleased that they failed in this part of their plan.
What an awful incident. I don't see how it's terrorism, unless there is a new definition?
Anyway, my thoughts are with anyone involved in any way (apart from the murderers obviously), what a horrible thing to witness.
I'm pleased, for once this STW thread has remained sensible. Well done folks.
So the photo of the attacker dominated the fron pages of all papers this morning.....
....except Daily Express, nice to see them lightening the mood slightly with a photo of the Dunchess of Cornwall looking fabulous in a £1,600 bespoke Emilia Wickstead coat with a Jane Corbett-designed cream hat. 🙄
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I wonder if, seeing as they wanted to be filmed, someone has immortalised for posterity the moment they came round in hospital, not to be greeted by the 72 virgins that martyrdom promised, but by a somewhat different welcoming committee
That 'oh shit!' moment. That'd be worth watching.
I don't see how it's terrorism, unless there is a new definition?
I think that if they don't label it a "terrorist" murder, it'll just be called a "muslim" or "islamic" murder which would not be fair or reflective. The fact that these sub-human creatures banged on about "their countries" etc etc, it is never going to just be labelled simple murder.
Wish the police put them away for good.
Now the NHS is going to have to fix them up, it'll get dragged through the courts for ages, and they'll end up in prison (in probably OK conditions), while the country they hate pay for all this.
RIP to the innocent victim that lost his life here.
On the face of it, it's a hate crime, whether it's an act of terrorism may depend if it was planned solely by the perpetrators or if they were following instructions and part of a bigger organisation. Too soon to call it either way yet, so should be considered potentially an act of terrorism.
That makes sense wrecker, cheers.
Looking at the Sun's headline, you can tell that EDL supporters read the Sun, a bit provocative me thinks.
any irony in the fact women being praised for helping the murdered soldier and no mention of the woman who shot both murderers..
She's had positive mentions right from the first eyewitness reports...
The first guy goes for the female fed with the machete and she not even ramping she took man out like robocop never seen nutn like it — [url= https://twitter.com/BOYADEE/status/337212426166620161 ]Boya Dee (@BOYADEE)[/url]
why do people write in that style?
parkesie - Member
The only people not allowed to wander the streets of our capital freely this weekend will be the boys and girls charged with defending it.
Unsurprisingly the directives have been waiting in inboxes and on Special Routine Orders as we've arrived for work this morning - nobody to wear uniform when entering or leaving barracks in Greater London, including anybody travelling in to London from the shires; outside London, the direction's slightly contradictory, but in essence "avoid wearing anything that readily identifies the individual as military".
Back to the days of the IRA...
RIP comrade-in-arms.
why do people write in that style?
because they have the freedom to do so.
The Tweeter is a local rapper so dat is da norm innit?
nobody to wear uniform when entering or leaving barracks in Greater London
Not limited to London either; we've had the same guidance and i'm a couple of hours away. I expect the advise across MOD is nationwide now.
The three women are fantastic. All three put themselves in real harms way. How many of us would have done that? I'd have hesitated for sure.
The eye witness said (I think, it's very hard to understand), that it was in his top 3 crazy things he's ever seen.
I dread to think what the other two things are.