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it’s genuinely a digital utopia in comparison to almost everything else out there.
This. Check pinkbike or MTBR whenever a trans girl does well in a World Cup. Vile, criminal stuff goes unmodded. Pinkbike have improved in the wake of George floyd, MTBR, not so much.
This notion crops up from time to time. Are you arguing in favour of censoring all posts from people whose views we disagree with and ban those we don't like? And yet, we're already accused in other threads of STW being an echo chamber.
Generally speaking, this place is self-policing as people with distasteful views get put back in their box pretty quickly by the rest of the userbase. (Cue accusations of bullying...) Is it not better to challenge these views rather than sweep them under the carpet and pretend they're not there? It's rare, but minds have been changed on here.
Yeh because that’s the answer rather than challenge people whos views are just wrong for 2020.
Go challenge them then.
Pro tip incidentally, if you find something that you think is inappropriate on the forum then every single post has a "report post" link under it where you can flag it for review, so a photographic memory is not required.
Take up golf?
With a broken hand?
Check pinkbike or MTBR
Pistonheads, Mumsnet...
Pistonheads, Mumsnet…
Life is too short to go there. That other places are far worse than this does not absolve those of us posting here to try much harder.
That other places are far worse than this does not absolve those of us posting here to try much harder.
No, but it kinda grates when we get compared/likened to the absolute worst of the internet.
I’ve not even opened that thread. Does it need reviewing
Not from a moderator viewpoint, it might enlighten re the op tho.
That other places are far worse than this does not absolve those of us posting here to try much harder.
This is true, but what tomhoward said.
We don't always get it right but we're trying very hard to make this a nice place. It's a balance between allowing people to share opinions, even if we don't necessarily like them, whilst keeping a lid on the more disruptive or offensive posts / posters.
When someone comes in going "IT'S ALL SHIT!!1!" with no further information or qualification, there's nothing we can do with that information and that's frustrating. What are we doing wrong? It's not constructive, it's just complaining and there's nothing here that helps us improve things. In the IT world it's like a fault report of "it doesn't work." Which is why when Joe expressed disappointment I asked the question, "which posts?" - I wasn't being confrontational, I was asking for clarification.
Not from a moderator viewpoint, it might enlighten re the op tho.
I'e since read it. Bails beat me to the only comment I'd have had on that.
I get where the OP is coming from. A bloke on the till at Forbidden Planet (who is a practising Jedi) once refused to sell me a bottle of Romulan Ale.
despite some of the extremely toxic posts from a certain individual.
When someone complains that they feel like they are being bullied can we please stop piling on?
Just understand that not everyone comes from a nice white middle class background and may have overly active reactions to perceived attacks.
IMO that thread brought out the worst in people so can we please just leave it to die.
Cougar
I was thinking more that people living local to each other might share the same mosque (church, synagogue, insert place of worship here) and so receive the same teachings.
Facilitating alcohol (or prostitution) are not a matter of teaching or interpretation in Islam.
There is no leeway through interpretation ... it is the same as taking part yourself.. serving pig isn't, it's a matter of interpretation or distaste.
I think that "local argument" is backwards.... people, especially immigrants naturally move to the place where their very specific sub-culture (in the widest sense) and extended family are.
Pennsylvania is a historic example. Notably granted by a minority (catholic) king...
I'm lucky to live in a town with a very old and established mosque (claims to be the oldest in N Europe) and that has over the years attracted a very diverse set of islamic cultures. As such there is no specific ethnicity or sub-culture.
However as integration goes this lags behind somewhere like Paris.
The central mosque has a cafe and resto...(and a Hammam) that welcomes everyone.
The alcohol issue is solved quite simply ... you are free to take a bottle of wine and get your own glasses and pick up as corkscrew and return it but not to ask. (even though I'd hazard 1/2 the serving staff wouldn't give 2c... if you did)
Take up golf?
And yet you are still here
Participation is not mandatory
Walk away.
Please, stop telling someone to go away if they feel excluded. Why do you think that is helpful?
just pause that a sec?
How did I miss this thread? I'm sorry but having not reviewed carefully just jumped page 1 to 4, we havE:
OP posts obviously fictional story guaranteed to produce a response from those who take it at face value (I won't say the slightly naive. Oh. I did).
Discussion starts.
OP does not respond.
5 pages in and still plenty of steam. It's definitely a high eight, if not a nine pointer ('prophets' probably pushes it to nine).
I am now going to check out the rivets thread hoping it's equally er, rivetting?
Carry on...
**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?
ha ha ha, yeah, who’d be that daft? (slowly puts club down and backs out of golf R us)
**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?
There are conditions that mean people take things literally. Nothing to do with being 'thick'
Also, jokingly saying “if mountain biking is too white and straight for you, go do something else”, is not helping when dropped in this thread (with its reference in the title to the closed thread). It’s an attitude that’s worse elsewhere, but even here it looks like a backlash against people saying, “hey, let’s try a bit of understating, and, you know, take ownership about our hobby looking like it excludes so many people who don’t feel like they fit”.
What is there to get offended by? Who’s getting bullied? STW is about as PC & left wing as it gets.
If we're trying to be balanced (speaking as an instinctive PC lefty hand wringer), there is such a thing and "PC & left wing" bullying. Whether or not we have a victim here I cannot say.
Personally I tend to think you've lost whatever flawed argument you were pursuing (my bias showing again) if you have to resort to the "I feel harassed/bullied" argument after claiming to see no issue with the marginalisation of certain groups of people from a different background to your own. One minute you can't stand whingers, the next you are subject to unfair censorship and bullying yourself? It's worth considering if you're just being challenged, because all ideas should get challenged...
And I've found you'll get challenged here more than many other places on the interweb.
STW ain't Facebook or twitter where you can define and refine your echo chamber till it's just other voices telling you how correct you are all the time...
Its is a pretty basic format forum (like much of the internet used to be) with just two channels where we either discuss 'bicycles' or 'everything else'. There's no demographic filtering (although you might suppose it tends towards people who like MTBs), basically anyone can have a login, the only real backstop for poor behaviour is the mods and they're pretty tolerant on the whole IMO...
Don't forget this is a commercially funded corner of the interweb still and angry shouty "debates" only works for so long when you want CRC & Co. to pay to advertise their dandyhorses on your site....
But you know what, you do have the kernel of a point.
Sometimes those of us reacting (overreacting?) to what we perceive to be Trolls, Bigots or general purpose unthinking Oafs probably could stand to tone it down... I know I have certainly gone too far and been (rightly) pulled up for it in the past.
I think these topics almost inevitably descend into circular arguments and pointless bun fights as people get wound up... knowing when to "walk away" or simply evacuate to the bike forum is a useful skill.
Maybe rather than a blanket thread closures or account bans/suspensions when stuff gets a bit aggressive/personal/heated we should have better 'timeout' options?
So Mods is there a way for you to block an individual user from posting on just one specific thread or maybe just the chat forum for say 24-48hrs?
Anyway back to the topic, and following on from the Buzzfeed article are there any other similarly minor events that people know of that have been spun out to create a disproportionate amount of Clickbait and social meeja repost material? And how much could be construed as Left wing Vs Right wing propaganda?
I'm sort of fascinated by how we are all influenced/persuaded/lied to today. It's not new but it is more refined I think.
And I have to resist the urge to think it's only targeted towards those with right of centre views... Us lefties are equally susceptible IMO.
Discuss...
Not just our government that seems destined not to learn from mistakes in recent history....🤦♂️
are there any other similarly minor events that people know of that have been spun out to create a disproportionate amount of Clickbait and social meeja repost material?
“ Winterval “ has to be the classic example.
www.snopes.com have loads
There are conditions that mean people take things literally. Nothing to do with being ‘thick’
There are conditions that mean people take things literally and other conditions where people pick and choose what to take literally and what to view as a personal attack.
I certainly am no expert but one of these requires proper medical intervention not just understanding.
NEITHER of these is anyone's fault.... there is no blame but based on personal experience of F&F if you can't see when someone is actually supporting you it's time to get help that cannot possibly be provided on a bike forum.
Just to be clear I haven't told anybody to go away. And merely asked 2 relevant questions.
^^^^ cookeaa makes some very good points
Often it's not the inciting incident that brings out people's prejudices, it's the reaction.
For what it's worth, I didn't think faerie was being bullied when she first brought it up.
However, after a dozen or so white males jumped in to explain to her why she was wrong I changed my mind. We have an autistic woman of colour saying she feels like she is being piled on. The reaction, a bunch of white males pile on.
This place may be left leaning but it is certainly not diverse. Accept that others have a completely different perspective to you and that sometimes you just have to let someone be wrong on the internet.
And no, 'At least we're not pistonheads.com' is not something to congratulate yourself on.
“if mountain biking is too white and straight for you, go do something else”, is not helping when dropped in this thread
It was more about the "being ashamed" bit as far as I recall when I posted it. Don't care enough to read back, I'm afraid.
Personally, I'm hugely grateful for kilo's absolutely brilliant comment. It does seem to me that this thread is now just continuing the other, closed, thread. My vote would go to framing kilo's comment for all the posterity it deserves and shutting this down before it gets like the other one. I don't think anything useful is going to come out of this now, and to be honest I didn't really think it would when I read the first post either, but kilo proved me wrong. I really doubt that can happen again now, though.
However, after a dozen or so white males jumped in
Pretty presumptuous.
Not for me to say who but I'm certain at least one of them doesn't fit into that description.
Blimey this has kicked off since I last dipped in at "prophets". Just poured a coffee but I'm out of biscuits.
Pretty presumptuous.
Not for me to say who but I’m certain at least one of them doesn’t fit into that description.
What, you mean a whole entire person amongst the multitude who jumped in wasn't a white male?
Well, that changes everything. All my points are invalidated. Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the forum and please feel free to continue explaining to minorities why they are wrong.
DEzB:
**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?
As the person both your golf comment and the "can't be that thick" one was aimed at... well it seems like i took what you said literally I mean how else can I take 3 or 4 words with no further justification? Am I thick or did you say something ill timed and poorly thought out? I simply said some of the views here (and within wider biking recently) make me ashamed to be associated with riding bikes, your response was well go do something else. I made a comment about being inclusive and you took that as an opportunity to be uninclusive.
If were we talking face to face I would expect an apology after those comments.
DezB:
It was more about the “being ashamed” bit as far as I recall when I posted it. Don’t care enough to read back, I’m afraid.
I fail to see how recent comments about inclusivity from here and the wider bike community cannot make you feel ashamed. Just read peoples comments about DK stopping production of the general lee frame, recent Wideopen article about our sport being inclusive or even the flack Cotic got for a post Cy made... Hell even go back a few weeks when Singletrack made their stance public. I don't want people with those view in a sport I love so much. For me its like accepting racist people in football. These views are not acceptable... but then again maybe im just "thick."
I’m sort of fascinated by how we are all influenced/persuaded/lied to today. It’s not new but it is more refined I think.
And I have to resist the urge to think it’s only targeted towards those with right of centre views… Us lefties are equally susceptible IMO.Discuss…
There are two ways you can tackle debate on pretty much anything. You either go in "high" and offer up an idea to be challenged and tested, genuinely wanting to hear alternatives to your argument. You take in feedback and refine or change your point of view based on new information or other sides to an argument. You stand as an advocate for your idea but you are prepared to move away from it. Through debating a point everyone involved in the discussion learns a little bit more and the original argument or point is improved.
It actually happens on here a fair bit, but happens more often when the topic is bike geometry than politics.
The other way you tackle a "debate" is with a fixed starting position that you "know" is correct and will never change. Debate, such as it is, basically involves shouting down anyone who disagree, such that opposing views are non-existent. Your classic echo chamber. Everyone involved ends up a little bit dumber as a result and nothing new is ever learned.
Social media and the whole "if you liked this you'll love this" algorithm driven method of showing you content guarantees that echo chambers form and are reinforced. But its also a basic human behavior to want to see content you agree with. Having your ideas constantly challenged is hard work.
I don't think there is anything inherently right versus left on any of this behavior. People that hold left wing views can just as easily fall into echo chambers on a particular topic.
What we do have though is a predominantly right wing media so this type of clickbaity shit stirring is always going to have a mainly right wing slant.
It's funny how this place is a lefty-liberal bastion as long as the people talking to each other are from the same demographic.
And yet as soon as a woman of colour says the wrong thing she gets a torrent of whitesplaing and mansplaining to correct her.
Like I said, often it's not the inciting incident you need to look at to understand if prejudice is a factor, it's the reactions.
Sometimes those of us reacting (overreacting?) to what we perceive to be Trolls, Bigots or general purpose unthinking Oafs probably could stand to tone it down… I know I have certainly gone too far and been (rightly) pulled up for it in the past.
A lot of good points in that wider post as well, but people do seem to be going in harder, or not taking a moment to think and review before pressing "submit"
And yet as soon as a woman of colour says the wrong thing she gets a torrent of whitesplaing and mansplaining to correct her.
I genuinely have not read this in either of the threads. Just really not seeing that this is what happened. I saw a viewpoint being challenged and possibly tempers flaring a bit from a couple of individuals. If genuine cyber bullying has taken place then report it to the authorities, let the experts decide.
And she’s not the only one on the spectrum but that doesn’t seem to matter.
FWIW, I'm not trying to have a go at you. I think you got drawn into an exchange where meaningful dialogue broke down and it was never going to have a good resolution.
What annoyed me was your 'supporters' who felt the need to jump in. It didn't do anything to help resolve the conflict and eventually turned into a pile on.
I don't want to get drawn into what started it all. What has disturbed me is the reaction.
If genuine cyber bullying has taken place then report it to the authorities, let the experts decide.
I think we should be aiming a bit higher than just not doing anything illegal.
Life is not like it is in the stories. Sometimes the bad guys win. Sometimes nobody wins. We won't necessarily live happy ever after. Sometimes there is literally nothing that can be done to make things better. This thread is like that. Surely it would be better to stop it now - and resist the temptation to restart it elsewhere?
FWIW, I’m not trying to have a go at you.
Yeah, I didn't think you were. My point was just a reminder that it applies to both parties in this debacle if anyone is suggesting it as a factor in anything.
What annoyed me was your ‘supporters’ who felt the need to jump in.
Some of that wasn't helpful I agree. But some of it was clearly intended to be constructive feedback yet it all got lumped together.
Twenty reported posts and counting on this thread, incidentally (not all by the same person.)
What, you mean a whole entire person amongst the multitude who jumped in wasn’t a white male?
Just one I know in person....
Whenever I meet anyone for MTB related stuff (riding, buying) I don't remember if any ever identified by race or gender except by pronouns or a first name.
Neither would I ask or care....most self identify by what they are riding or what's on the back of the car.
please feel free to continue explaining to minorities why they are wrong
Who said anyone was wrong? Except for your pre-judged view of of someones ethnicity or gender.
Yes there are bigots out there... but judging every "white male" as a bigot is wrong.
FYI:
My then 7yr old got told by his previous school female, white teacher he'd be "being sent home" after brexit.
His best friend at school got told Hinduism isn't a real religion by a minority female teacher.
Is either of these better or worse than the other?
Twenty reported posts and counting on this thread, incidentally (not all by the same person.)
I can quite believe it: Lemon shortbread, I ask you...
Oi! I resemble that comment about the shortbread!
You're both crackers.
Who said anyone was wrong?
Read the other thread. Lots of people were explaining to her why she was wrong.
The first person can justifiably say they were offering constructive criticism. Maybe even the second.
The eighth person has to really ask themselves if what they are saying is actually adding anything to the conversation or just piling on after everyone else has jumped in already.
If it's not adding anything then it's just bullying.
I blame working from home. No-one had the time to get into this level of debate when they had to flick back to an Excel workbook every time their boss came back in to the office
fin25
Well I am kind of an expert (at least where autism is concerned) and yes, sometimes autistic people do benefit from medical intervention.
As I said, I'm not an expert but I really classed autistic spectrum as the not needing medical intervention, even though that is an over generalisation.
I'm not going to jump into amateur diagnoses but being on the spectrum doesn't preclude other issues, indeed it can actually mask them.
I don’t think anything illegal has occurred. That’s my point. If it has then it should be investigated by people who know better than you or I don’t you think?
My point is that I don't think the slogan of the STW community should be, 'It may be morally dubious but it's not illegal'
I'd like to think we could be more inclusive than that 🙂