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If anyone has been to a war cemetery you will know that they are the most moving places imaginable. To see such a place desicrated in the manner shown on the youtube footed makes me think our troops bombed and shot the wrong side of the recent Lybian fiasco.
Every country has its nutters. Have we never had such things happen in our own country?
and the suprise is?
TandemJeremy - Memberand the suprise is?
It is only at one location ...
Bear in mind there are many who hate the West to the core for whatever reasons ...
For anyone who's missed the story.
It's all about which foot the shoe is on. Libya is now full of people at every level of power who are capable of acts just as reprehensible as Gaddafi was. The same is true of Syria and Assad.
It was clear to me early on that we were doing the world no great good in the long term in Libya.
If you have a shed built out of utterly rotten wood, you can't cure it by swapping pieces around and putting in the odd nail here and there. You need to tear it down, and replace it with wood that is not rotten.
That won't happen in any of our lifetimes, so in the meanwhile there will be a lot of shuffling about and political (sometimes military) manipulation to stop things imploding on themselves and taking the rest of us with them. The Islamic world ladies and gentlemen.
But don't forget... it's a loving peaceful religion! 😉
In Afghanistan, someone made a mistake and some copies of the Koran were put a bit near a fire. As a result, thousands took to the streets in riots and many innocent people have been killed. In Libya, armed men we spent millions of pounds saving from their own government, destroy the graves of our dead from World War II while decrying the 'Christian dogs'. What will happen as a result? Absolutely ...nothing. I am not suggesting there should be riots, or any kind of physical action. It would be nice though, if people could open up their minds and see past the propaganda, accept that their idiosyncratic desires for everyone to 'just get along' are not possible with the world in it's current state... and that maybe Islam is indeed afterall something that will take potentially good and peaceful people and twist their minds, drive them to violence and teach them that any number of heinous acts against their fellow man will be rewarded in the afterlife.
FWIW it wasn't just the graves of western/christian soliders that were damaged , Muslim graves were also damaged.
I'm with you there, Arcane. Look how many acts of atrocity have happened to the Iraqies by their brother Muslims since Saddam was removed
"FWIW it wasn't just the graves of western/christian soliders that were damaged , Muslim graves were also damaged. "
And in Iraq at this very moment, Muslim kills Muslim because they are not the right kind of Muslim. Actually, it's quite possible that there is far more Muslim against Muslim violence than Muslim against Christian in the world at this time.
But again... loving peaecful religion... despite what the Koran says in black and white! 🙂
Ooops. Sorry... kind of stole your point there (above poster). Honestly was not posted after reading yours. 🙂
And of course Christianity is all about love, forgiveness and turning the other cheek? Just let me go and pull out my copy of the George W Bush biography (its short with lots of pictures).
Stereotyping religions is not useful. There are nutters in all religions (though don't hear of too many Buddhist ones).
If you want more examples of Christianity and its tolerance then follow up the history of Northern Ireland.
Religion does tend to be used to excuse violence.
Christianity has very likely been responsible for more atrocities an acts of violence throughout history than Islam.
The difference is, slowly as it may be, Christianity IS being dragged out of the dark ages. Islam takes two steps back for every step forward.
Right now there are very few Christian countries in the world where a government will take military action based on religious beliefs. Alternatively... just about every single Muslim country in the world, has a government that will take military action based on religious beliefs.
The world is well on the way to recovering from the Christian disease. The muslim disease is not even under control yet.
CHB, you need to look back at the sixties when Buddist monks kept setting fire to themselves. In my book that makes you pretty effin nuts
When you overthrow a government from outside without any legitimate one to take its place nor any unifying group in the country you get a breakdown in law and order and it gives space for things such as this.
What we are seeing is on the whole tribal rivalries and settling of scores - not religious IMO.
It was so obvious this was going to be the result.
TandemJeremy - MemberWhen you overthrow a government from outside without any legitimate one to take its place nor any unifying group in the country you get a breakdown in law and order and it gives space for things such as this.
Best thing to do is let them deal with their own internal problems.
Scarily enough, I find myself agreeing with TJ.
It seems a common thread. Attack with no exit plan and little thought as to what will happen post-overthrow.
Have you ever visited a war cemetery TJ?
Maybe it's just that other countries are a bit more hysterical than us. There is always that woman in black who falls to her knees, arms up stretched and wailing on the news. In this country we try to pretend nothing has happened. I think we try and sort out a situation rather than standing around moaning and trying to blame someone else.
There was last years riots but that was nothing to do with shooting someone,more about trainers and flat screens.
Maybe apathy is a good thing.
The main problem for Islam seems to be that the countries where it is followed are often those with the oil resources. So not only are there huge inequalities internally between those who have access and those who haven't, but they attract much international attention from the likes of us who want to secure our supply.
As unpalatable as this is, it's not the worst thing that has happened in Libya since the fall of Ghaddafi. Widespread human rights abuses including torture, rape, murder and indefinite detentions without trial or family access etc.
Thank god we supported the brave freedom fighters against the evil Ghaddafi.
TJ is right, Libya's instability has less to do with Islam and more to do with a power vacuum. Look at what happened to France after the French revolution.
stavromuller - MemberHave you ever visited a war cemetery TJ?
Yes. I have visited war graves and battlefields and shed a tear or two. why do you ask?
So are the perpetrators of this wanton vandalism brave freedom fighters? Just asking because I seem to remember Mandella blew up a powerplant and he didn't do so bad in the end
Why was Ghaddafi in power? because it suited the west, why was he removed because it suited the west. If you want to look at a f***ed up country look at Saudi, but because it suits the west they house of Saud are allowed to run it how they see fit. When they are seen as a liability rather than an asset i am sure we will see a revolution in Saudi Arabia.
Right now there are very few Christian countries in the world where a government will take military action based on religious beliefs. Alternatively... just about every single Muslim country in the world, has a government that will take military action based on religious beliefs.
Really? Blair and Bush took us to war based on religion and are responsible for the deaths of millions.
I don't see malaysia starting wars, nor Iran. Turkey is not engaging in invading other countries.
i think islam is a medevil backward faith ,and they are savages , its causes most of the worlds problems !!
The reason I asked TJ, is because you seem remarkably unconcerned as to the damage caused for some obscure cause
nobbyq - Memberi think islam is a medevil backward faith ,and they are savages , its causes most of the worlds problems !!
And christianity isn't?
i think islam is a medevil backward faith ,and they are savages , its causes most of the worlds problems !!
So you think that religion is a greater evil than, let us say, the pursuit of power? or money?
The problem the world faces is intolerance, it doesn't matter what the root of it is, it is what allows people to be herded like sheep into wars thinking that it is the way forward. It prevents seemingly intelligent people actually thinking for themselves.
As unpalatable as this is, it's not the worst thing that has happened in Libya since the fall of Ghaddafi.
Yup, and it's kinda sad if some people are worked up by this particular incident but not so much bothered by the torture, murder, illegal arrests, looting, theft, etc.
Libya has fallen out of the news because the West achieved their objectives, but the torture, murder, etc, continues. All of which is mostly ignored except when a story like this occurs.
yes i do , its caused wars since time began ,intelligent people dont cut heads off others with kitchen blades on tv, or walk on trains with bombs on their backs , or fly planes into buildings!
Yup, and it's kinda sad if some people are worked up by this particular incident but not so much bothered by the torture, murder, illegal arrests, looting, theft, etc.
I was thinking this, I'd much rather they smash up graves than blow up trains or kill their neighbours! People often seem to respect the dead more than the living FFS.
Sorry mrmo but Blair didn't ask me if I minded when we attacked Iraq and callmedave didn't ask me if it was ok to bomb the crap out of Tripoli. So it hardly makes me a sheep being herded relentlessly to war just some jumped up twerp wanting to make his mark on the world
yes i do , its caused wars since time began ,intelligent people dont cut heads off others with kitchen blades on tv, or walk on trains with bombs on their backs , or fly planes into buildings!
So what do Intelligent people do? Do they plant explosives on horse guards parade? do they assassinate politicians in car boots? Do they blow up ships in New Zealand Harbours? Do they invade countries with democratically elected governments and install puppet regimes? Do they allow torture in contravention of their own laws?
To say Islam is evil or wrong is stupid, the problem is with people seeking power and using what ever approach they can. I don't remember Islam featuring in Kamikaze? Then again the west has always had this idea that they are improving the world.
Do you know where the greatest libraries on earth have been? do you know why europe was not destroyed by the Mongols? Do you know why the works of ancient greece still exist?
Sorry mrmo but Blair didn't ask me if I minded when we attacked Iraq and callmedave didn't ask me if it was ok to bomb the crap out of Tripoli. So it hardly makes me a sheep being herded relentlessly to war just some jumped up twerp wanting to make his mark on the world
So what did you do to stop it happening?
Tails, you seem like an intelligent a**hole. The war graves represent a lost generation that gave their lives to help save freedom for the entire world. Unfortunatately it gave this bunch of well armed scum the freedom to violate the memory of true heros
Tails, you seem like an intelligent a**hole. The war graves represent a lost generation that gave their lives to help save freedom for the entire world. Unfortunatately it gave this bunch of well armed scum the freedom to violate the memory of true heros
How about reading it another way, a generation who gave their lives to allow the imposition of ghadaffi on them, "scum" who have had to suffer death, torture, imprisonment, because they were "saved" by those buried in those graves?
History is written to serve the needs of the writer, History is rarely a true record of events.
What tails said is true - its worse if they kill people than if the desecrate graves.
arcane - MemberBut again... loving peaecful religion... despite what the Koran says in black and white!
Go on, tell us what you've seen in the Quran in black and white that tells you that Islam isn't a peaceful religion?
(sits back and waits for the inevitable misquoting of the verse of the sword)
So:
Team A destroys inanimate objects that they feel have no importance, except to Team B.
Team B then does the same to Team A in retaliation.
As for Islam, yes, it would be nice if it had a second significant reformation, but all the Abrahamic religions are a bit odd:
Are circumcision and transubstantiation any more illogical than the veneration of bits of paper?
A pox on them all.
The war graves represent a lost generation that gave their lives to help save freedom for the entire world.
To be fair the war in question was about a few powerful Europeans countries fighting each other and in the case of Libya they happened to be doing it on someone else's territory.
Britain and France both had empires in Africa, and Germany and Italy fancied having some too.
Yeah sure, the British soldiers who died in Libya during WW2 were fighting for the freedom of the British people, an indisputably honourable commitment, but that's not quite the same as saying that they were fighting for the sake of Libyans, which is what I presume you mean by "the entire world". Britain wasn't much bothered when Italy declared Libya to be part of the Italian empire, in fact both Britain and France gave bits of their territories to the Italian Libya.
In you're apologist rantings you all seem to be forgetting that these graves were just of the poor sods who had to do the hard work and sacrificing,not the politicians and warmongering industrialists that ultimately benefitted
Turkey is not engaging in invading other countries
Interestingly, Turkey regularly invades Northen Iraq to suppress Kurdish separatists. As for Libya...better the devil you know than the devil you don't...
stavromuller - MemberIn you're apologist rantings you all seem to be forgetting that these graves were just of the poor sods who had to do the hard work and sacrificing,not the politicians and warmongering industrialists that ultimately benefitted
You mean like the bit where I say :
[i]"the British soldiers who died in Libya during WW2 were fighting for the freedom of the British people, an indisputably honourable commitment"[/i]
?
The west is just a spin off from the Islamic world.
If it wasnt for the Islamic academics we'd still be using Roman numerals. Add to that algebra, trigonometry, geometry, chemistry, geology, calculus, the Toledo translations and "the experimental method"....
The word algorithm is derived from Al-Khwarizmi's (Baghdad mathematician) Latinized name Algorismi, and algebra, from the title of his book Hisab al-jabr w’al-muqabala, Kitab al-Jabr wa-l-Muqabala (pub' circa 800)
Who were those guys in the cemetery anyway?
Interestingly, Turkey regularly invades Northen Iraq to suppress Kurdish separatists. As for Libya...better the devil you know than the devil you don't...
And the US regularly invades any country they choose to, Israel regular assassinates who they feel like, Russia has a few issues with some regions wanting independence, It isn't many years ago when the UK imprisoned anyone they felt like in Northern Ireland.
Blimey, did I really read early on in this thread about "Korans being accidently burned in Afganistan"...maybe the same geniuses who accidently urinated on dead militants in Iraq!!
You'd have thought that after the fiasco of sending the Paras into Ulster on peacekeeping duties that no peacekeeping force would behave like that ever again.
I guess squaddies are not really selected on an intellect bassis!
FFS what does desecrating graves achieve other than inviting hostility and contempt. I utterly fail to see how it can be justified for any reason.
Maybe it's just that other countries are a bit more hysterical than us. There is always that woman in black who falls to her knees, arms up stretched and wailing on the news. In this country we try to pretend nothing has happened. I think we try and sort out a situation rather than standing around moaning and trying to blame someone else.
Hmm maybe it's something to do with the luxury we have of being at war vicariously. These 'hysterical' people stretching their arms are faced with the abject horror of living in the areas where people fight.
It's easy to moan about blaming someone else when you don't have to see your family murdered and your country destroyed.
And who has tried to justify it? No one
Maybe it's just that other countries are a bit more hysterical than us. There is always that woman in black who falls to her knees, arms up stretched and wailing on the news. In this country we try to pretend nothing has happened. I think we try and sort out a situation rather than standing around moaning and trying to blame someone else.
hmmm. i seem to remember a fair bit of gnashing of teeth when princess Di, died? wan't there a minor disturbance in London when some upstanding member of the community/drug dealer was murdered/accidentally killed whilst police attempted an arrest.
Same shit different place. People are people, Look at what the NF do to Jewish cemeteries in the UK.
Maybe it's just that other countries are a bit more hysterical than us. There is always that woman in black who falls to her knees, arms up stretched and wailing on the news. In this country we try to pretend nothing has happened.
This is an unbelievably stupid statement. Maybe people in some other countries have more to be hysterical about?
As unpalatable as this is, it's not the worst thing that has happened in Libya since the fall of Ghaddafi.
I'm curious to know what everyone imagines life was like in Libya prior to the fall of Ghaddafi. Anybody like to paint a picture of a typical day there prior to February last year?
FFS what does desecrating graves achieve other than inviting hostility and contempt. I utterly fail to see how it can be justified for any reason.
Well it seems to have wound you up nicely. So on that basis it was undoubtedly a worthwhile act as far as the perpetrators are concerned.
If they had gone out and butchered a few people instead, I hazard to guess that it wouldn't have got the same reaction from you.
As unpalatable as this is, it's not the worst thing that has happened in Libya since the fall of Ghaddafi.[b]"I'm curious to know what everyone imagines life was like in Libya prior to the fall of Ghaddafi"[/b].
Read the post again properly, he says that it's not the worst thing that has happened in Libya since the fall of Ghaddafi. He doesn't mention anything about how things were prior to the fall of Ghaddafi.
I'm curious to know what everyone imagines life was like in Libya prior to the fall of Ghaddafi. Anybody like to paint a picture of a typical day prior to February last year?
What's your point, that human rights abuses happened under Ghaddafi too? Well duh. But you don't see a problem when we intervene supposedly in the name of human rights, yet it turns out the new regime we install is just as bad?
wow some impressive ignorance on display
its a good job no ones ever done anything nasty in the name of christianity, or britain for that matter???
(btw im not apologising for terrorists, millitants or random nutters)
for the impressively thick id suggest you read the koran and the old testament together http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_narratives_and_the_Quran
our version of history is very different from the version many people in the middle east believe
eg
national hero winston churchill played his own part in creating some of the problems in iraq long before he was pm, saddam wasnt the 1st person to drop chemical weapons on the kurds
did anyone see this documentary on bbc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01b3fpw
When you overthrow a government from outside without any legitimate one to take its place nor any unifying group in the country you get a breakdown in law and order and it gives space for things such as this.
Sound like some sort of justification to me
Sound like some sort of justification to me
Justification for the desecration of graves ?
You've got an impressively vivid imagination fella.
No - thats an explanation of how and why civil society has broken down enough that allows these sort of things to happen.
Graum = ts not a new regime - its a divided country where no one group rules it and its far far worse than before in terms of safety and security of the citizens
When you overthrow a government from outside without any legitimate one to take its place nor any unifying group in the country you get a breakdown in law and order and it gives space for things such as this.
Then the choice then would have instead to have supported Ghaddafi helped him to quash the revolution. Ghaddafi spent the last 40 years or so ordering society so that there was no means to gather, discuss, oppose, protest. A unifying group could never have emerged and a unifying group isn't going to conveniently materialise now either, just to keep everything tidy.
and its far far worse than before in terms of safety and security of the citizens
really? Which Libyan told you that?
Graum = ts not a new regime - its a divided country where no one group rules it and its far far worse than before in terms of safety and security of the citizens
Perhaps we should try and re-install another dictator then. I'm sure the Americans are thinking this after what happened in Egypt.
A unifying group could never have emerged and a unifying group isn't going to conveniently materialise now either, just to keep everything tidy.
Someone mentioned what happened after the French revolution, we shall have to see what emerges from Libya.
And predictably TJ walks straight into a trap set by maccruiskeen.
Go on, the pair of you - have a mega and pointless argument about how good or bad things were, and how good or bad they are now are.
🙄
Just maybe if these Lybians could put as much effort into rebuilding their pox ridden country as they have in the obscenity they have carried out on the war graves, then maybe Lybia and the world would be a better place
So Acane and Stavomuller, How do we fix these Muslim countries, would you like to round them all up and gas them?
You rants are ill informed and xenophobic, do you know any Muslims or are you going by what the EDL and Daily Mail tell you?
There are over 1.6 billion muslims in the world and if they all wanted you dead, you probably would be.
their pox ridden country
You don't like Libyans very much do you ?
Just maybe if these Lybians could put as much effort into rebuilding their pox ridden country as they have in the obscenity they have carried out on the war graves, then maybe Lybia and the world would be a better place
Perhaps at some point in this thread you will finally understand that these graves mean nothing to the people who damaged them, and stop demonizing a country for what a minority in it did, then you would also be in a better place.
Incidentally, it was the second issue of the Sun on Sunday.
Ok eyerideit, apart from the fact you can't pronounce your Rs, without knowing me you call me xenophobic. I'll have you know that I'm racist, sexist, ageist and homophobic, just like everyone else on the planet. The only Lybian I ever knew personally, I liked very much, he was a great guy.
apart from the fact you can't pronounce your Rs
And not forgetting the fact that you can't spell.
The only Lybian I ever knew personally, I liked very much, he was a great guy.
Just not a big fan of his country ?
LIBYA!
Oh, you knew a [b]Libyan?[/b]
That changes everything I retract my riddiculous response right away.
Thanks TJ, your input is highly valued
Eyerideit, maybe if someone steals my bike and I find out who did it, I should smash their grandad's gravestone?
Stavromuller have you ever met the old man that looks after the British War graves in Kabul?
If not, STFU and stop accusing these people of being savages.
That makes sense, I'd put that whiskey down and get off to bed.
It's school tomorrow.
You can't call every Muslim evil just because of a few knobs who get into the news
Going back to the OP, yes war graves are some of the most moving places imaginable. Few years ago I went to the Kanchanaburi Cemetary and it was a very peaceful place in amongst the tourism and evidently respected by the local community. Sadly it was deserted compared to the tourist trap surrounding the Bridge which i didn't feel comfortable going close to.