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Going round and round all day on the M25 sounds like an urban myth to me.
Or an American.
The M25 is just over a hundred miles. London to York is about 200 miles. I can see that at some point on the second circuit the driver might have started noticing places that they were passing again and story changed from 'they could have been half way to York' to 'they drove all day around and around'. And, because the M25 is astonishingly boring, even among motorways, they could have been on the wrong side of London by the time they realised. (Oh look, another Chessington World Of Adventure!) And going by this thread they wouldn't have noticed going across the Thames twice. 😀
Ahh yes, a delightful bucolic vista...
anyone can select a photo looking in the wrong direction. Here's one of the highlands
http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmP8eMrxcnhuLc9c-g0TmXcO7F7g68QeGyNKUtB3dDNQ&s
It's all just urban sprawl. I love that Dartford is a Londoner's idea of 'countryside'
I agree Kent isn't exactly the Highlands and Islands, but these are the approaches to Blackwall and Dartford from the South.......
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Ahh yes, a delightful bucolic vista...
anyone can select a photo looking in the wrong direction. Here's one of the highlands
http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmP8eMrxcnhuLc9c-g0TmXcO7F7g68QeGyNKUtB3dDNQ&s
We are talking about a specific location not a large geographic area.
Are you actually trying to argue that the Dartford crossing is a nice bit of countryside?
Maybe an aerial shot is the most alluring angle.
I particularly like the Costa del gas.
Going round and round all day on the M25 sounds like an urban myth to me.
Or an American.
This isn't the York story but it's similar. It's far from the only case to have made the news.
https://www.suffolkgazette.com/lost-on-the-m25/
Are you actually trying to argue that the Dartford crossing is a nice bit of countryside?
No, I've got derailed into that, my point was and remains that to get there you would have driven through miles of countryside, which while not the sprawling vistas of Scotland, is not UNpleasant.
The photo above shows the immediate area, which is indeed less than bucolic. I'd also remark the lack of Canary Wharf right next to the road but that's not surprising because it's clearly a totally different place to Blackwall.
This isn't the York story but it's similar. It's far from the only case to have made the news.
I was agreeing with you wasn't I? 😀
I remember that story that you posted. It's sad - an old confused driver couldn't work out where to go. I've got at least one family member who could do the same sort of thing. Thankfully she doesn't drive.
Are you actually trying to argue that the Dartford crossing is a nice bit of countryside?
The crossing isn't but there's miles of open countryside south of Dartford. It's equivalent to thinking that you're crossing the Mersey via Thelwall Viaduct on the M6 and somehow not noticing that you're actually driving through Runcorn and Widnes.
that's not surprising because it's clearly a totally different place to Blackwall.
I'd take issue with the use of the word 'clearly' in that sentence. To someone who doesn't know the area a busy road in a built-up area probably looks a lot like another busy road in a built up area. And sometimes it's a tunnel and sometimes it's a bridge, he found a tunnel on a busy road in a built-up area, so seems possible not to notice he was a little bit west of something very similar where he thought he was.
I'd take issue with the use of the word 'clearly' in that sentence. To someone who doesn't know the area a busy road in a built-up area probably looks a lot like another busy road in a built up area.
The road to the Dartford crossing is a motorway, the M25, the road to the Blackwall isn't, theA2.
If you can't tell whether you're on a motorway or not you have need of some retraining.
It's easy to tell the difference. You can tell what you are on, but not what you should be on
If you don't know the area are you expecting a motorway or a big A road? Who knows🤷. If you've done a bit of research you'd have seen that the bit by the crossing isn't actually a motorway, a wee gap in the M25, so the A2 probably looks about right, it's a busy road and has a tunnel in it, pretty much what you're expecting.
... the bit by the crossing isn't actually a motorway, a wee gap in the M25, so the A2 probably looks about right....
Hence "The road to the Dartford crossing is a motorway, the M25.."
The A2 is nothing like a motorway, not least all the direction signs and count down markers on it are a different colour.
The road to Dartford crossing is A282 not A2. That's from one end of the M25 at the A2 junction until the other end with the A13 junction.
I'd argue the A2 is quite like a motorway all the way from end of M2 to M25/A282 junction (but with wrong colour signs), and A282 also. At least in comparison to the Blackwall tunnel approach. Did some of my driving lessons along there years ago. Quite handy to have "motorway driving" practice before passing driving test on a road that's legally not a motorway, but to all intents and purposes looks and feels exactly like one.
I'd say (and I know this may wind up a few) :
north of Inverness is in the north.
The midlands probably hull to Inverness
Hull to France is the south.
These days I just start up Google maps and off I go. I only roughly look at the roads.
You're not a proper northerner until you call a Sheffield accent southern.
You're not a proper Southerner until you realise the truth that the North starts at Woking not Watford.
Winchester is basically the posh bit of the Midlands.
It's easy to tell the difference. You can tell what you are on, but not what you should be on
If you don't know the area are you expecting a motorway or a big A road? Who knows
You're still missing or avoiding the point.
Which is that the two are sufficiently different that whether he knew where he actually was or not, he should be able to realise by the lack of it being a motorway practically all the way to the start of the crossing, or having different signs, or by the different name, or because it's not in the countryside, or because of the ****ing great skyscraper complex that wasn't there when he crossed in the other direction, or whatever ...... that he isn't in the same place!!
He doesn't need to know what to expect, he needs to think 'This is different to last time. I wonder why?'
Which should be sufficient to drive him to work out where he crossed this time rather than simply pay for a different crossing and wonder why he then gets a fine for not paying for the crossing he did use.
And then the OP accuses the TfL for being the robbers. He drove through their tunnel and didn't pay their toll, now they're fining him. That he paid a different toll to a different authority that they have no knowledge about is hardly for them to work out, but STILL if he gets on the phone to them and explains it they might let him off with paying the toll anyway. That's a pretty shit way to run a scam....
He doesn't need to know what to expect, he needs to think 'This is different to last time. I wonder why?
Cos they are on a bridge vs not? At which point do they diverge? They might just have been paying attention to the ****ing road vs the scenery?
Given the statement they were visiting London and "closest options to where we were staying was Sainsbury's in Chislehurst. " I assume they got sent over the bridge and then a hard right through the delights of Dartford and Erith (not twinned with anywhere but has a suicide pact with Dagenham (courtesy of Linda Smith)) on the A2 to get them to supermarket/home for the weekend heading towards all those skyscrapers.
If we flip it around and head home:
They would have gone on the A2 and gone through a tunnel before joining the M25.
Or if they had gone home the same way they would have spent time on the A2 enjoying the city that never sleeps, more a town that lies awake all night staring at the ceiling (courtesy of Linda Smith again) just before joining the M25.
Its obviously a cockup but ironically if we pay attention to what they wrote its a tad more explainable.
If they had been catching the ferry from Dover then yeah call them a muppet but they seem to have been heading into London and not have benefitted from the endless beautiful countryside the M25 offers.
Its obviously a cockup but ironically if we pay attention to what they wrote its a tad more explainable.
Yes, among the implausible explanations for how someone can drive right past Canary Wharf and think that it's the same place as the Dartford crossing where they came a few days earlier, yours is the least implausible so far 😉
This was never meant to be a serious criticism but it seems to have developed into a bit of an argument. No-one's going to stop me from facepalming at the OP not noticing, but I genuinely hope the TfL people also decide the comedy value is worth the 86.50 difference in revenue and agree to charge the toll only.
In other news, and you'll all laugh at me for this, I got home last night to find a parking ticket! Do you reckon I can appeal it?
I went into town a couple of weeks back and paid using one of the online app things. All good. I went into town last week and thought I'd paid but turns out that it wasn't the same app. I suppose in hindsight the clues were there - the first car park was a NCP surface car park on the outskirts of Woking and the second one was an APCOA multistory car park attached to a shopping centre in the centre of Camberley but I was so focused on finding a space I didn't notice the difference. And now the thieving bastards at APCOA Camberley are fining me for non-payment. Grrr....
The NORTH actually starts around Haywards Heath, or probably Burgess Hill , just Saying ;))
Yes, among the implausible explanations for how someone can drive right past Canary Wharf and think that it's the same place as the Dartford crossing where they came a few days earlier, yours is the least implausible so far
You are making the assumption that people who live 500 miles away from it have 1. any idea what Canary Wharf is, and 2. What it looks like. Could you name and identify the biggest Skyscrapers in Brussels or Amsterdam? Because if you are in the south of England, you are geographically closer to them than Inverness is to London, in fact we are closer to Norway than to London. Just having looked, in London you are closer to Stuttgart than you are to Stirling
Also the last time I was on the M25, I spent most of it sandwiched between artics, rusty transits and 10t panel vans with a BMW up my arse and half of England trying to cut in on me. I was much more concerned with staying alive, sticking to the speed limit which due to reasons seems to change every 100m, and being in the right lane than looking at the scenery. I could have been driving past the hanging Gardens of Babylon and I'd have been non the wiser.
20 years ago when on a long journey I'd make notes for navigation - "follow the M25 for 21 miles, turn off at junction 19 heading north towards Milton Keynes" type of thing. I'd have in there stuff about what to expect to make sure I was on the right route, going the right way. But now it's just put your destination into Garmin/Google Maps or whatever and follow the purple line.
To say you should expect to take note of certain geographical or architectural features and expect the previous journey in reverse is just weird these day. With dynamic routing to avoid jams, you could easily be routed to the Dartford tunnel on the A206 or A296 and not the M25 at all, and both of those routes are just urban freeways not dissimilar to the approach to the Blackwall tunnel.
Honestly, we've had southerners come up to Scotland and think the Pentland hills is Arthurs Seat, Mount Blair is Schiehallion, Stirling Castle is Edinburgh Castle and completely miss it when they drive past Nessie having her holidays in Loch Tay because they are too busy looking at Ben Nevis. Lack of local knowledge in an area unfamiliar to you isn't a crime and shouldn't be mocked.
Going round and round all day on the M25 sounds like an urban myth to me.
Or an American.
In a similar vein and genuine story, I was rigging my windsurf at my local reservoir a few years ago on a cold blustery winters day when approached by an asian family wearing extremely smart clothing who looked cold and very out of place by a muddy lake shore....the asked me where the shops were. I was a bit puzzled and told them there was a fishing shop by the changing rooms and a cafe down the track about 500m. They said, no the SHOPS, all the SHOPS. It took about 5 minutes before I twigged they had driven from Birmingham using the sat nav to Bewl Water (idyllic country park in Kent) not Bluewater (hideous purveyor of landfill, Dartford). I told them they should take a walk round the res (13 miles) but I think the 25 knot wind and horizontal rain put them off a bit......oh well its only about 50 miles away, off you go.
Well, this has been a fun little journey into why the rest of the country thinks Londoners are all hateful smug bastards.
He doesn't need to know what to expect, he needs to think 'This is different to last time. I wonder why?'
Dartford is a tunnel in one direction and a bridge in the other. I'd expect it to be "different to last time." Beyond that I've no idea what it's supposed to look like, it could be a 47-lane superhighway or cobbled singletrack for all I know.
It's very easy to go "can't you tell the difference?!" if you somehow know what the road you aren't on looks like.
In any case. My experience with the Dartford crossing, having made a late payment once because I forgot, is that if you appeal you'll likely get a deeply condescending letter telling you that you're a very naughty boy and won't be so lucky next time. Phoning them was fruitless, Computer Says No lady just told me to use the online form.
In any case. My experience with the Dartford crossing, having made a late payment once because I forgot, is that if you appeal you'll likely get a deeply condescending letter telling you that you're a very naughty boy and won't be so lucky next time. Phoning them was fruitless, Computer Says No lady just told me to use the online form.
My experience was the same - twice (in two different vehicles).
Not heard the Bewl Water / Bluewater satnag fubar.
Definitely heard of the Leeds Castle / Leeds fubar, with people finding themselves at a castle with a concert and wondering where Yorkshire is. Of trying to find where the concert is in a big city (does Leeds have a castle?) and being told they have 5 hour drive still.
Minster (Kent) vs Minster (Kent) is one I can sympathise with though. Even Royal Mail ****ed that one up often.
That reminds me of the time that Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie had tickets to watch Chelsea but their driver took them to the site of the Battle of Stamford Bridge near York.
That reminds me of the time that Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie had tickets to watch Chelsea but their driver took them to the site of the Battle of Stamford Bridge near York
Could be worse.
I know a bike racer who drove to Newport for a crit, got there, spent a while driving round then phoned the team manager asking where the circuit was.
It took everyone a little while to work out that the team were in Newport South Wales whereas the rider had gone to Newport Shropshire.
I was sitting in a cafe in Aberfoyle.
Hearse pulls up and the driver comes in asking for Aberfeldy church.
Oops.
I spent 3 years driving over / under the Dartford crossing on a weekly basis and never noticed any countryside between Bishops Stortford and the other side of Crawley.
Definitely heard of the Leeds Castle / Leeds fubar
I did have a moment of panic the first time I saw "Leeds Castle" on a sign and wondered if I had got my directions spectacularly wrong.
Definitely heard of the Leeds Castle / Leeds fubar
I did have a moment of panic the first time I saw "Leeds Castle" on a sign and wondered if I had got my directions spectacularly wrong.
I bet you felt a right kent.
I mean you did see Canary Wharf didn't you? I can walk up a hill near me and see it, particularly at night, and it's nearly 30 miles away.
Which means you’re a local, and completely familiar with the road networks around where you live.
While I’m familiar with Canary Wharf and The O2, it’s entirely through using London’s famous Underground and overground train networks; attempting to drive around there, I’d be absolutely lost, I wouldn’t have the foggiest idea about which roads/tunnels go where, and what times I should be using them, because, even if I go to the top of the highest hill anywhere around here, I wouldn’t be able to see it, because I live 130miles away on the other side of the sodding country!🙄
Which means you’re a local, and completely familiar with the road networks around where you live.
No, it means it's ****ing massive and you can't miss it.
FWIW - I drive in London once in a blue moon, precisely because of the public transport system, there's no point in driving in. The exceptions, and these are in the last year, are to where my son's hall of residence is in Clerkenwell, and maybe once or twice to Camden for gigs when the famous public transport has gone on strike. TFF satnav for those occasions.
I don't think I've ever been through the Blackwall tunnel, the only time I've been 'there' in a car was when the kids were in a show at the O2 and the cost of four of us on public transport made the car viable. One thing I remember was how impressive Canary Wharf close up at night was, incidentally. It really is, not to labour the point, huge. And lit up. No mistaking it.
And I've been over the Dartford crossing maybe half a dozen times, living in the suburb of London that is Guildford I'm on the opposite side of the M25 and to get anywhere worth going (channel ports, or the north) will only take me across the crossing in the event of a major traffic issue.
But even with that extensive experience I'm telling you, anyone that can't tell the difference sufficiently to check what crossing they'd used EVEN IF the northbound Dartford crossing is now also a tunnel, really has a worryingly low awareness level.
No, it means it's ****ing massive and you can't miss it.
As I said above, that assumes you've heard of it and know what it looks like.
Why would those of us who live 500 miles away in a different country be familiar with your local landmarks?
I've heard of Canary wharf and know it's a skyscraper but I still couldn't pick it out in a line up of other tall concrete structures.
In fact, thanks to the wonders of the internet and other people's dull lives - try this spot the difference. Remember, I'm not asking you to identify which is which particularly, or to know the detail of the roads. Just, can you see that they're different places. Here's some clues - note the greenery of the bucolic countryside poking out between the high sided vehicles. The amount of sky visible through the front windscreen uninterrupted by high buildings.
http://youtube.com/shorts/lQRxob_UK2s?si=85PsPjcjc_IkUSQM
vs this one with its high buildings next to the road, regular signage (including a helpful one right as you enter the tunnel) etc.
(Note also the excellent tunes)
As I said above, that assumes you've heard of it and know what it looks like.
Why would those of us who live 500 miles away in a different country be familiar with your local landmarks?
again, it's not to do with identifying and naming it. It's spotting a difference between the outward route and the return route sufficiently to make you think whether you have used a different crossing or should you just pay the same toll again?
While we're at it educating our cousins in the north, Canary Wharf is the name of the relatively recent development, of all the skyscrapers so beautifully shown at night in the picture on the previous page, not an individual building.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Wharf
At least your simple cousins in the north don't have to pay to cross rivers.
The exceptions, and these are in the last year, are to where my son's hall of residence is in Clerkenwell, and maybe once or twice to Camden for gigs when the famous public transport has gone on strike. TFF satnav for those occasions.
Imagine, just following a satnav because you don't know the area or what any of the landmarks look like. Did it take you on identical routes there and back? Or were there variations because of traffic, road closures, road works, etc? Did you even notice or where you concentrating on driving?
A local would have known. To the rest of us both of those places, and indeed Canary Wharf, Dartford and Blackwell, are all just 'somewhere in London'
Yes, it does, not least because of one way systems and avoiding congestion charging. I cant tell you exactly what routes but on the way in it usually takes me past Tussauds and the Planetarium, St Pancras, and King's Cross. On the way back it takes me across the river in town (for free!) where with a tilt of the head you can see St Pauls to one side and the Shard to the other. These are not hard to notice despite watching the road because they are very large.
Like I say, I can't tell you exactly what routes, but there's ample evidence with even a modicum of awareness to know they are different routes.
To the rest of us both of those places, and indeed Canary Wharf, Dartford and Blackwell, are all just 'somewhere in London
Dartford isnt. It's in Kent.
At least your simple cousins in the north don't have to pay to cross rivers
You probably want to stay away from river crossings for the sake of your wallet 😉
https://www.merseytunnels.co.uk/
https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/plan-your-trip/toll-prices/
Dartford isnt. It's in Kent.
So are Bromley and Croydon but they all look like London. And not like countryside 🤣
So are Bromley and Croydon
Not being a local I had to google that as it doesn't sound right.
Bromley WAS part of Kent but became part of Greater London when that administrative area was created in 1965. So maybe some older residents might still consider it as part of Kent but factually it isn't. Interesting you chose Bromley as it is noted as being particularly leafy with over 50% of the borough being green space. I suspect anyone switched on would not mistake driving through Bromley for driving through Blackwall which is characterized as a heavily urbanized, high-density docklands and commercial area.
Croydon has never been part of Kent - the same applies as above except read Surrey for Kent. I could possibly forgive mistaking parts of Croydon as being parts of Central London, Croydon has its share of high rise development, as well as some leafy areas in the south of the borough.
I've heard of Canary wharf and know it's a skyscraper but I still couldn't pick it out in a line up of other tall concrete structures.
Is it? I'd have been looking for boats.
In fact, thanks to the wonders of the internet and other people's dull lives - try this spot the difference. Remember, I'm not asking you to identify which is which particularly, or to know the detail of the roads. Just, can you see that they're different places.
You know Jon, you're usually a voice of reason, but this is a really peculiar hill you've chosen if not to die on then certainly sustain wounds.
I understand that it simply does not compute in the head of your average Londoner that the entire rest of the country doesn't frot itself blind about the city, but rather gives about as many ****s about it as London does about us. What may be obvious to you relies on your pre-existing knowledge, and London's landscape can change on a dime. I once took a wrong turn in the designer-suits glass-and-chrome financial district and wound up somewhere I would be very scared to be if I were on my own after dark. For all I know the different directions of the Dartford crossing could be fifty miles apart from each other.
You know Jon, you're usually a voice of reason, but this is a really peculiar hill you've chosen if not to die on then certainly sustain wounds.
My tongue was and still is very firmly in my cheek here. Maybe that's not coming across well, and some seem to be taking the rebuttals very seriously, but I assure you it is meant to be.
I specifically cut you some slack because of your tendency to take things literally and didn't respond to what is essentially the only really unpleasant comment when you called us (checks notes) 'hateful smug bastards'.
I'll say again, as a 'local' (I'll go with it although living 30 miles from London and closer to 50 miles from Dartford hardly makes me that) I find it inconceivable and funny that someone can't tell the two crossings apart sufficiently to at least want to check, but hey - there's enough evidence that Steve's not the only one that would have the same issue. So that's me taught then.
And I still hope that when the folk at TfL have got over the 'You what? Thought the Blackwall was the Dartford? HTF didn't you notice the difference?' surprise they decide to let him off.
But Dartford's still not in London, and Croydon's still not in Kent and never was, that's a hill I will die on 😉
