The size of modern cars is absolutely preposterous. I walked past an X7 and a new Defender today and they are gargantuan.
I find it incredible that people still buy the **** things. The amount of 71 plate Rangeys (not ewoks or velars but full fat vogue or often SVRs) absolutely blows my mind!
I couldn’t even nearly be arsed to park one of the things. Totally unsuitable for built up areas but they’re literally everywhere.. and the excuses for owning them! I wish people would just say “I like big cars so I bought one”
Anyway I’ll climb down off my soapbox and wind my neck in now
Edit: before I do.. also interested in why only EVs should be limited? ICE cars use a fair chunk of natural resources bouling around at above 70.
Are you and the people around you driving slower than you were ten years ago?
Yep. Plentiful info around on Google for that. Also lots of data on speeds increasing from (say) 2018 to 2020. No real surprises there as a lot of it would be down to lockdown. Much less traffic on the road = faster average speeds.
Edit: before I do.. also interested in why only EVs should be limited? ICE cars use a fair chunk of natural resources bouling around at above 70.
Oh, I just put that in for a joke.
Used to be that the vw polo and vauxhall corsa were the smallest in the ranges, but now they've grown up (bloated) manufacturers have bought in new small cars like the Up & Viva in those cases, I recon part of it will be the motoring press slating new models if they aren't seen as an "improvement" on the outgoing versions.
Having a car 1ft shorter than my old one is a godsend for parking in that there London when I have too.
The Japanese have been at it for a while
And about a foot shorter than me...
It was only once we got into the 2000's that I properly fitted into 'average' cars. I've long legs and until then in most ordinary sized cars I'd have the seat back to the stops - with consequential limited space behind me.
but if we all drove fiesta sized cars
I only want to buy one car, that suits me for 99% of what I need - and my (current) car will seat 4 adults happily, with luggage, take me and my XL 29er with only the front wheel out, it's AWD which I need as we're rural in Scotland.
But it does do 50mpg.
Oh, and anyone who thinks we ought to go back to pre-power steering is either senile or has just forgotten how crap they were.
Oh, and anyone who thinks we ought to go back to pre-power steering is either senile or has just forgotten how crap they were.
I think the idea was that yummy mummies wouldn't be capable of driving Chelsea tractors & would be forced to drive smaller cars or do more gym sessions.
Oh, and anyone who thinks we ought to go back to pre-power steering is either senile or has just forgotten how crap they were
Most but not all were crap. My 1972 105 series Alfa Giulia GT Junior had great steering that wasn’t too heavy. But then it had 165 section tyres and weighed just under a ton.
My first Mk. 1 Golf Gti had wider lower profile tyres but was fine again because it wasn’t really heavy. Modern cars have wider lower profile tyres and they are heavy which are only acceptable because of power steering. You could make a non power steering system acceptably light but it would be ridiculously low geared.
Unless you have local parking issues big cars are better in every way.
@irc - except for for the environment, the single most important thing in the world. Bigger heavier car = more materials = massively bigger environmental impact during manufacture and worse when being driven around.
Of course there should be a limit on car sizes. For safety and the environment. My wife's been wondering for years why there isn't a tax on vehicles based on dimensions as well as CO2 output. No one except for farmers and the odd construction contractor needs an SUV or pick up truck. Hardly anyone actually needs a car as big as an estate (no, your bike doesn't have to live inside. Put it on a rack and get a roofbox). And absolutely no one needs a van for their hobby.
I hope all this will become moot in the next few decades - I doubt we'll own a car once our current one dies. We take the train on most trips further afield and car sharing will be the default in urban areas soon. It'll only be people in isolated communities and prigs who will drive cars they actually own.
But all this is back to the bizarrely regular argument we have on a cycling focussed website - most people on here don't give a shit about the environment or anyone else and will keep buying SUVs so that my generation and younger burn.
Bikes go on the roof, camping equiment in the boot and rear seats.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha. Throw 2 kids and a dog into the mix and see where that gets you for a two week camping holiday.
Still stuggling to work out how they managed to flip it, Yaris didn’t seem to budge an inch!
I suppose it is one of the downsides of driving an off road vehicle with approach angles to make it good off road. A normal car with low bumpers and bad approach angle would not have done the same.
I had only owned Toyota Aygos for the last 11 years. I have carried a bike in it, have gone to the tip (a lot) with quite a lot of crap each time and I feel totally safe driving it.
I do however rarely go on motorways but for town and rural driving the small size is a benefit, the light weight can be felt when accelerating, braking and cornering and I enjoy driving it more than any big car.
If everyone had to drive an Aygo I can't really see that as a bad thing.
I’ve nonissue with big cars per se, it’s more cars that have a big footprint yet relatively small interior space that get my goat.
My Discovery is a big motor. But it’s huge inside and easily swallows a 4 man team’s worth of rope/tree kit or 2 dogs and a couple of weeks worth of camping kit. Add the 4x4 gubbins underneath and it has to be the size it is, if that makes sense?
But there seem to be lots of cars (like the lower numbered BMW ‘X’ cars) that are huge but have small cabins. Or even just things like a few years ago we had a 5 door Focus & the BIL had a Ford Kuga which was bigger on the outside but actually had less cabin/boot space than the Focus. To me it seemed to be that it was styled to be a big chunky SUV but was actually less practical than the ‘normal’ hatchback with the possible exception of being a bit taller so easier to get the kids into their seats. But was the tighter internal space worth it just to save bending over? I guess not as they did t hang on to it for long and traded out for an Octavia.
I’ve also got an R53 Cooper S which was one of the first BMW produced Minis. At the time it was massive compared to the original Mini but now on the road it seems to be tiny even compared to the newer Minis.
We've just bought a 10 year old Aygo as a 'bail out' for son (busted his Fabia Monte Carlo - don't ask) and for daughter to learn in.
I've fixed a few issues - known to leak around the boot - perished light seals, and replaced the front discs and pads and general service parts. Discs and pads were, wait for it, £38.
It's incredibly light, only has 68 bhp, but is flipping nippy. It returns really good economy - 60 plus. It's a bit noisy compared to our insulated big cars, but some additional flooring foam under the boot carpet has reduced it significantly.
We've got a 'posher' one, 6 speakers, bluetooth, electric windows and air con. They are still very basic though. It's blooming ideal for town though, narrow, short and nips into spaces. I prefer to take this to the shops and local trips than the big cars. I've done a bit of motorway driving in it, and it's happy enough at 70 - I wouldn't want to be going 90 in it though, although it will do it. It doesn't feel that small driving, until you come to reverse, and the back window is just a few inches away - my car is probably twice as long as the Aygo.
Once my son has his back working, we intend to use it for commuting - will cut fuel bills down in half, although I've gone back to cycling to work.
Other plus point, you can hand wash it in about 5 minutes, it's that small. Son's mates have commented on how much rear room there is for passengers compared to their Corsas, fiestas, Leon's etc.
I've read up on all the little issues these cars can have, but they are silly cheap to look after.
we were thinking of just keeping this for 6 months and selling on, but I think it's a keeper.
UK roads and parking spaces make driving anything past 2m wide or 5m long pretty tricky anyway, so it's a self-limiting thing.
Something like the new Defender 110 looks big but it's smaller than a T5/T6 SWB, and those occupy most of the trail centre carparks just to carry a bicycle about.
I love a kei car but they're dying out in Japan as the incentives aren't as high. The main benefit is escaping the need to prove you own or rent a suitably sized parking space, although in the cities there's nowhere to park anyway as they don't do overnight street parking.
We’re a two car house and have one car from each end of the size spectrum. I’ve got a Skoda Superb estate ands The Wife has a VW UP! (Don’t forget the !)
The UP! is brilliant round town for two people. Three if the front seat passenger likes to be intimate with the dash board. There’s almost zero leg room in the back.
My Skoda can swallow the world. Both my boys, adults now, are both well over 6 foot, I’m the same, so nearly every car we’ve had has been a compromise with cabin space. Except the Skoda and the Passat before it. We now travel in comfort, I hadn’t realised that you can get out of a car after a few hundred miles and not need a full body muscular-skeletal realignment to be able to stand up. Thank heavens for big cars.
A friend of my Wife’s came around on Saturday morning, she parked her new car on the drive to avoid the residents parking restrictions, I walked out of the gate into the drive to be confronted by a monster of an SUV. A Hyundai Tucson. It was massive. I had a look round it and the cabin and boot space is small, she admitted that it’s smaller than the Golf she had before. Me being 6’4”, I couldn’t see the whole roof or reach across the bonnet.
The reason she bought it? She didn’t feel safe in a small car like a Golf. It’s an arms race to get the feeling of safety or to be higher than all of the other big, safe, tall cars on the road. She lives on the edge of town so no snow bound country roads to navigate, no crossing the odd field with the low profile sports tyres.
The reason she bought it? She didn’t feel safe in a small car like a Golf. It’s an arms race to get the feeling of safety or to be higher than all of the other big, safe, tall cars on the road. She lives on the edge of town so no snow bound country roads to navigate, no crossing the odd field with the low profile sports tyres.
And yet the study I linked to at the start suggest that BIG car drivers have more accidents and worse accidents (note: no evidence of cause vs symptom). She statistically would be safer in the Golf...!
A Hyundai Tucson. It was massive.
They really aren't. It's 60mm wider, 200mm taller and 100mm shorter than a Golf estate
Compared to, say a Discovery - 200mm wider, 400mm taller and 300mm longer than a Golf estate
Well, it’s rather subjective about size. It filled my drive. The Skoda doesn’t and that’s similar size to an oil tanker.
The drive is enclosed on three sides with fencing, I couldn’t walk round it or see over it.
And she had a Golf hatch previously, not an estate. I had a mk4 Golf estate and that certainly was longer than the hatch and had lots more boot space.
They really aren’t. It’s 60mm wider, 200mm taller and 100mm shorter than a Golf estate
Compared to, say a Discovery – 200mm wider, 400mm taller and 300mm longer than a Golf estate
No, It's not. It's 200mm taller 60mm wider and 200mm longer than a Golf (not estate), but it's the cubic volume that really hits home. The Golf is 11.09m^3 vs. 13.7m^3. It's over 35% bigger, despite carrying no more people and little more stuff.
All SUVs basically have this slab of volume on top of which sits a normal hatchback. That's why they look so big, They're bulky, not so much big in any particular dimension.
People won't change unless they are incentivised to.
Tax cars based on emissions x weight x length or similar.
The ridiculous spectacle of Q7s and full size Range Rovers dropping a single child at school has to be priced out of existence
The ridiculous spectacle of Q7s and full size Range Rovers dropping a single child at school has to be priced out of existence
Not just that. Even if you had 6 kids a better solution would be an MPV. They should only be available based on strict need. You could ban them and only make LR Defenders available. That way people who need them to drive off-road still could, but no-one else would want one 🙂
And yet the study I linked to at the start suggest that BIG car drivers have more accidents and worse accidents (note: no evidence of cause vs symptom). She statistically would be safer in the Golf…!
My exSIL and also Cousin's wife both ended up in wheelchairs when hit by other vehicles when driving (older) Golf's.
My Brother changed to big saloons (Legacy's and the like) and my Cousin to Disco's.
I don't get this 'I don't feel safe' thing. They must be terribly anxious people. Too many people driving too big cars.
Try riding a bike...
I don’t get this ‘I don’t feel safe’ thing. They must be terribly anxious people. Too many people driving too big cars.
I agree, if all the anxious drivers and those who just dont like driving could be convinced or helped into a car free lifestyle then all our road issues would be solved.
and what we really need is anxious driver in BIGGER cars!
My Brother changed to big saloons (Legacy’s and the like) and my Cousin to Disco’s.
Do they realise they are a part of the problem and that bigger cars are not the solution.
They are the solution to carrying more people comfortably, carrying more stuff and being safer if you collide with a smaller vehicle.
Even if you had 6 kids a better solution would be an MPV. They should only be available based on strict need. You could ban them
No, not this at all. You might want a society where we are constantly told what we can and can't have, but just no
What next - you don't need a house that size, it's not environmentally friendly, you're only allowed to buy one big enough for your needs?
You're only allowed one holiday a year
You don't need any more children, you're only allowed two.
You see where it ends up?
and being safer if you collide with a smaller vehicle.
And if you don't see the irony in that ...well.
Just like in the playground - there's always someone bigger than you.
Cars have got much bigger over the last 30 years, unfortunately the streets haven’t. The main road through my village has parked cars most of the way along and while two smaller cars can pass, two SUVs certainly can’t, this regularly escalated into road rage, people mounting the pavement etc., and generally makes it a less pleasant place to live.
It would be good to have a rapidly escalating tax once cars got over a certain width, with this tax given back to owners of smaller cars. That way they are paying something back to all the people they inconvenience.
No, not this at all. You might want a society where we are constantly told what we can and can’t have, but just no
It was tongue in cheek, but ultimately someone has to tell us 'no' don't they?
You see where it ends up?
A saved planet? (Devil's advocate here)
Just scrap VED and put the tax on fuel, the more you burn, the more you pay.
Much less admin for the DVLA too, so a huge saving there.
Just scrap VED and put the tax on fuel, the more you burn, the more you pay
Thanks, you've just done over every rural place in the UK, particularly Cornwall, Wales and Scotland.
Scrapping VED and dumping it in fuel doesn’t help when yummy mummy or lifestyle dad with his T5/T6/Disco who only drives 100miles a week to and from school and shopping.
People who buy a self indulgent **** panzer need to be taxed sooo hard that their assholes literally pucker up at the thought of the monthly payment cost. It needs to be outrageous!
They are the solution to carrying more people comfortably, carrying more stuff and being safer if you collide with a smaller vehicle.
@irc Have you ever considered not treating more vulnerable road users as expendable inconveniences?
Scrapping VED and dumping it in fuel doesn’t help when yummy mummy or lifestyle dad with his T5 only drives 100miles a week to and from school and shopping.
To be honest I think the opposite. I'd rather fuel was at least £1/liter more, which would make train travel slightly cheaper than driving (by my back of an envelope maths my off-peak Newcastle-Reading return ticket costs about 30mpg).
Then make road tax a scale based on the age of the car. Say 10% of its value in year 1, down to 1% at year 10 and thereafter. That accounts for the emissions in its production and removes the ability to carry on the current bonkers status-quo where a family of 4 expects to be able to have 4 cars and park them all on the street (because 1% is still a lot unless it's a small car).
There will always be a use case where personal cars make sense, the tax system just needs to work to reflect this.
On the other hand, I commute roughly weekly from Newcastle to Reading and back. I find it utterly contemptible that I live in a society that incentivizes me to do that by car!
n.b. I split it between the car and the train depending on the time of day I finish the shift, whether there are engineering works on the day i need to travel, etc.
Thanks, you’ve just done over every rural place in the UK, particularly Cornwall, Wales and Scotland.
To be fair, the current system does over every community affected by rising sea levels and extreme weather events. Take your choice, the privately-owned T5 used as a runaround gets taxed into oblivion, or the houses get flooded.
Thanks, you’ve just done over every rural place in the UK, particularly Cornwall, Wales and Scotland.
Farm vehicles already have leeway, if you want to drive to tesco, buy a honda jazz.
Scrapping VED and dumping it in fuel doesn’t help when yummy mummy or lifestyle dad with his T5 only drives 100miles a week to and from school and shopping.
of course it does, the standing weight of a 2 tonne chelsea tractor with 20 inch rims and the aero of a small house will burn more fuel than a fiesta, especialy in stop-start traffic like the school run.
Just scrap VED and put the tax on fuel, the more you burn, the more you pay.
Much less admin for the DVLA too, so a huge saving there
The folks that that can buy a new monster sized car every few year will simply buy a monster sized electric car.
Ok, so less local pollution but all the other big car problems and waste, except you won't hear it coming.
I suppose charging points could have their own meter and heavily taxed rate, which would help make up the VED shortfall too and avoid the need for road charging.
Although you can't have Red Electricity so open to fraud. But that's not really a crime according to our government.
Your statement in itself shows how people will do what ever the frick they want unless it’s legislated against.
Two kids is one too many too IMO, but I know that's not going to be a popular one. But people should definitely be penalised for buying new cars, cars that are too big and houses that are too big.
@irc - why are you moving so much stuff all the time? Why are you thinking of sacrificing those in small cars when if everyone had a small car the danger in a collision would be the same?
I have a small house, one child and have one holiday a year. Ok, I have a couple of big motors.
My point is about freedom of choice.
I'm not moving stuff all the time. But when I am having space is good. Currently doing a bit of fencing and being able to stick 3m long loads inside the car is convenient. The car is also big enough for me to sleep in the back at 6ft3 without being cramped. Not a frequent thing but useful.
As for safety. Not a primary reason for me or I wouldn't ride a bike on road but I'm assessing safety on the roads and traffic that exist not the way it would be in someone's ideal world full of small cars.
The extra running costs of a big car are well worth it for the extra capability.
The only downside is parking in tight spaces but if we are going anywhere like that we take the other small car we have.
Two kids is one too many too IMO
Two kids for each couple is enough to reduce population over time.
My point is about freedom of choice.
That's all well and good but choices have consequences. Sometimes they have negative consequences for people other than the person making the choice. How's that fair?
I have a small house, one child and have one holiday a year. Ok, I have a couple of big motors.
But you could have a small house, one child, one holiday a year and have two smaller motors, and save energy without really impacting your life in any way.
VED is far too low on all vehicles, especially leccy ones as it's based on direct emissions not full product lifecycle/impact I say crank it up as well as the price of petrol/diesel. price heavy inefficient vehicles off of the roads (he says owning a heavy, inefficient vehicle).
The cost of leccy is going to go up the more opportunities to burn hydrocarbons in our homes are reduced and the more leccy we need to generate. by the mid-late 2030s a huge number of us will be heating our homes and charging our cars at home on top of all the other devices and data centres, surely baseload requirements are going to triple...
That's why they are building new renewable energy and a new nuclear power station.
crank it up as well as the price of petrol/diesel.
I take it you're not a business owner who HAS to drive tens of thousands of miles a year
When deciding a policy edge cases just have to be ignored.
I take it you’re not a business owner who HAS to drive tens of thousands of miles a year
If I said I was would that make my opinion more valid?
Driving is still too cheap, whatever vehicle you use and for whatever reason it is environmentally damaging and the costs do not reflect that or generally get put towards addressing it.
That's the fun think about "environmentally driven policy" finding ways to accommodate the "business community" who largely want everything to carry on as it is. The seas might be lapping at the edges of the M5, but don't you dare **** with their money!
It's irrelevant anyway, all parties are terrified of upsetting businesses, no government is ever going to enact the sort of thing I suggested above you might see a penny on fuel duty once a year... Instead politicians cling to the idea that the market will save us. That the very businesses that sell us the goods and refined hydrocarbons we burn in our horseless carriages have some sort of incentive to fix the issues their products (and our willing use of them) created...
Edit:
a new nuclear power station.
Decades late, hugely over budget, new nuclear is lagging badly. Renewables are great but only part of the energy mix, we're going to need more in the coming decades and some of it it going to end up coming for burning gas...
