[Closed] Life and 45 years for Lee Rigby killers

Captain Flasheart, I too have heard that the translation from the Koran's Arabic might be raisins, not virgins. Something to do with the value of dried fruit in desert climes back in the day. Those martyrs are going to be mighty hacked off when they're presented with a box of SunBlest!

It repulses me that one of them may be released in 45 years.

I would not wish harm on any human but I hope they spend the rest of there days, in solitary confinement with nothing but basics to survive on.

I hope they live long quite lifes with the company of nobody, and that there crimes/appeals recive as little attention as possible as they seem to feed of any kind of publicity as (marturisum) which seems to make them happy.

My thoughts are with lees family, and hope they are provided with help they may need to move on to a better place in their life. Nothing will ever replace a Son, Father, Husband, uncle, brother or Friend.

I find t hard to believe that all of the people so vociferous in their support for death penalty here are just as outraged by the murder of women by their male partners, which is by far much more common type of murder (which is itself an atypical and uncommon crime).

This and most other crimes are not "Clear Evidence" for the death penalty.

It's a method of dispensing justice from a long time ago that was based on fear and not needing to deal with prisoners. We could deport them that was a good idea a couple of hundred years ago.

Spending a lifetime reflecting on what you have done is possibly one of the toughest punishments you can hand down to somebody. For all those wishing to dispense death would you do it yourself.

For all those that think this sort of thing un heard of take a look around the world. Is it different to launching a drone strike on a village killing innocent men women and children? The case of Baha Mousa above?

On the waking up surrounded by virgins it could just mean arriving in games workshop though.

On the waking up surrounded by virgins it could just mean arriving in games workshop though.

😆

I'm firmly in the "death penalty is bad" camp.

For a start I don't really think killing someone is OK as long as they killed someone else, EG. If I watched someone kill someone else so I killed them, I could be given the death penalty for killing them but the person who killed me would not be punished...

Also in most cases (this one being an exception) you cannot be 100% sure that someone is guilty and the risk of killing innocent people is not worth it IMHO. Time spent on your own to reflect on your actions and potentially change and contribute something to society is far better.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/26/domestic-violence-risk-death-injury-police

In a stark illustration of the levels of domestic violence across the country, data from 34 out of the 44 police forces in England, Wales and Scotland reveals that at least 10,952 individuals, most of whom are women, were deemed to be at high risk of violent death in the home, or of suffering serious violence, in the year to November.

I'm glad we don't have the death penalty and wholeheartedly agree with the courts judgement.

I also congratulate the timing of the trial regarding the delivery of the whole life tariff, European court ruling.

It's almost like they planned it that way.

You only have to look at Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rouge, or any of the recent civil wars in Africa to see ordinary family people hacking their neighbours limbs off after a few months brain washing

To be honest it rarely requires brainwashing. Imagine if you'd taken the convicted chaps and given to the mob outside. I doubt it would have been catcalls and jeering in store for them.

Firmly against the death penalty, I can only guess at the hell that Lee Rigby's family must be in, my thoughts are firmly with them.

Rather than argue about what should happen to these two men, our efforts should be directed to trying to find out why they did what they did, and trying to prevent it from occurring again.

These two wanted to die, I can think of no better punishment for them to be shuffling about in their 80's in a pair of slippers while still in jail.

I'm pro capital punishment, particularly for rapists and repeat (+1) violent offenders and middle lane hoggers, but something about this pair's outlook is appropriate.

They're going to have a miserable time.

I'll add my voice to those who are against capital punishment.

I could want for nothing more in this case than for the killers to spend a comfortable time in prison contemplating their actions and hopefully over time coming to understand their mistakes and regret their actions. I hope that we can show them that in spite of their incivility, we as a nation continue to see dignity and humanity in them. I hope that In time, their experiences can even have a positive impact on future generations by their helping to reach out to those who could find themselves walking the same path.

Personally I don't think that I agree with tariffs this long, I would like to see them learn from their actions and if that happens ideally we'd be able to return them to society.

Capital punishment would have been too good for them and would have made them martyrs, which was exactly why they rushed at the armed Police in the hope of being shot dead.

I heard some protests going on in the background when I saw the news report on TV and guessed it would be the National Front crowd.

I'm wondering if they will get any support in prison from fellow Muslims; the fact that they are the spoiled and bored kids of two rich and deeply Christian Yoruba families who converted to Islam might not endear them to any Asian "lifelong" Muslims who might view them as fakes.

The death penalty is truly horrific. To kill someone because you're unhinged, brainwashed or in a violent rage is one thing, but to do it in the cold light of day as you look into their eyes and perhaps listen to them pleading or crying, that is truly frightening.

I teach my kids that revenge is not a good thing.

I approve of the sentence in this case, but I do feel sorry for the killers. They got brainwashed by some crackpots and wanted to do something they thought was for a good cause. A very sad ****ed up situation, but I don't hate them. I don't think it was personal.

I know this will get me some flaming, so please read it carefully, but there are some parallels between Rigby's death and those of Iraqi civilians in the second Gulf war.

[s]tits[/s] elaborate or gtfo

I also congratulate the timing of the trial regarding the delivery of the whole life tariff, European court ruling.
It's almost like they planned it that way.

This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
I realise this would make them martyrs but would save 45 years of jail cell cost
There is no doubt these guys are guilty and the money saved could be given to disabled children/cancer patients/whoever.

Except the death sentence costs more money as you need an appeals process to make sure the innocent don't end up getting their brains fried, then you need to convince doctors to actually be involved with the procedure (good luck with that) oh and then you need to take into account the public health costs of the death penalty. Which is that it actually reduces the publics value for life and helps to increase murder rates.

All because people like a bit of retribution with their morning coffee.

OK, he was actually innocent but at least it was quick. Neville Heath was tried on 24th September 1946 and executed on 16th October.

Oh yahhh that makes it all okay then.

I'm not a fan of the defence sentence one bit, I just think it's a shame the officers who shot them hadn't spent a bit more time down the range..

All because idiots like a bit of retribution with their morning coffee.

+1

Such people are dangerous. They also deserve whatever they get. They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.

I agree with them going away for ever but you're dehumanising them. They aren't monsters, they are humans...remember that and maybe just maybe then...humanity can one day face itself instead of labelling bad people as monsters who are somehow different from the rest of it.

Put under the right pressure and the right cirumstances you could murder someone.

footflaps

Yayyy!

Someone mentioned the idea of capital punishment 'teaching people that killing is wrong'. Hah. People who kill generally already know it's wrong.

And those that don't are sociopaths who'd carry out their murders regardless.

Tom W

You talk about dehumanising and the fact that "they are humans". Do you think we as a species have some divine right just because we're 'human'.

Bearing in mind the concept of 'human rights' is a fabrication, why shouldn't we dispose of broken and faulty members of our species?

We're too sentimental. Just get rid of trash like them. The silver lining in this case is by not disposing of them we deny them of their wish. They can't top themselves as their ideals don't allow it.....

You talk about dehumanising and the fact that "they are humans". Do you think we as a species have some divine right just because we're 'human'.

No, nothing divine. But they are still human, and that should still mean something. If it doesn't, then you're not that much better than them. You'd kill them on your principle, they killed Rigby on their principle.

You talk about dehumanising and the fact that "they are humans". Do you think we as a species have some divine right just because we're 'human'.

Bearing in minds the concept of 'human rights' is a fabrication, why shouldn't we dispose of broken and faulty members of our species?

We're too sentimental. Just get rid of trash like them. The silver lining in this case is by not disposing of them we deny them of their wish. They can't top themselves as their ideals don't allow it.

I knew it, unenlightened. Care to explain how human rights are a fabrication?

Murderers are a product of their neurobiology and their environment, there's no such thing as free will. Not that this means they shouldn't go to prison, but prison should be viewed as a sad and in a perfect world unnecesarry process to protect the public further from a deviant product of nature and society. They are to be pitied. You for example.. could have been born with the right genes to be a sociopath, I'd have hoped people understood that and had some humility and empathy for the suffering of people that have gone wrong.

I might be a raging atheist but I'm still 10 times the Christian you will ever be, even if you don't care - I do.

Bearing in mind the concept of 'human rights' is a fabrication, why shouldn't we dispose of broken and faulty members of our species?

Some would argue Jews and homosexuals are faulty members of our species. If you'd lived in Nazi Germany, you'd have been the type that would have been brainwashed into believing so.

Molgrips,

Humanity doesn't mean anything over any other species and nor should it.

I don't go round killing things other than for food. I can't see how you can criticise that.

Humanity does mean something. Your second statement shows that.

I'm not criticising the fact that you don't kill. That is patently absurd.

Molgrips

You can't rope me in the same category as those mongs just because I don't subscribe to the view that there is anything special about the human race over anything else. That was my point.

On the subject of killing, most species don't kill for the sake of it. Arguably puts us as a lower form of life than most.

Mikertroid - not sure if you're aware of it, but you're coming across a bit 'tomorrow belongs to me'. When you talk about 'disposing of broken and faulty members of our society', who exactly would you include in that process? I know I'm probably coming over a bit pc, but here's a little bit of information about me. I'm a psychiatric nurse, my eldest son's gay and my youngest has learning difficulties. So much of what you posted boils my piss, but your master stroke has to be your use of the term 'mongs'. Well done sir, well done.

Whilst being bundled downstairs after ranting about allah, Adebolago was heard to loudly complain "You're breaking my arm!"

Bless. A taste of what's to come methinks, old boy.

C Ya. Wouldn't want to B Ya.

Humanity doesn't mean anything over any other species and nor should it.

So we can eat people then?

Where's my spit and piri piri sauce.

Also using this argument, we as a society should act like animals as well. I should be able to assault the next person who looks at my food in the wrong way.

On the subject of killing, most species don't kill for the sake of it. Arguably puts us as a lower form of life than most.

Hehe, I like this one. What about cats, apes and dolphins?

I sense that you're some kind of right wing animal rights type.

You can't rope me in the same category as those mongs just because I don't subscribe to the view that there is anything special about the human race over anything else. That was my point.

Yes he can, you display about as much empathy as a psychopath.

[i]who exactly would you include in that process[/i]

Perhaps 'mongs' or those with Downs Syndrome as we tend to call them these days?

Tom,

I wouldn't have any issue about it TBH. Just it's not for sale.
Re: acting like animals-we ARE animals. Our behavioural characteristics are that of our particular species and we have our own societal code. But we're bound by the same laws of nature that all other animals are. We're not special.

Barnsley, I think you're being a bit sensitive. I don't think being gay or having learning difficulties qualifies you for the death penalty!!!

Re: the use of the word Mongs. I was being lazy in the use of a disparaging term for the Rigby Killers. But it's a colloquial term I'd use again in conversation to describe them. I don't call Down syndrome sufferers mongs.

I think I've caused accidental thread drift! But it's been engaging!

It was the post about disposing of broken members of our society that I was questioning, but using the term 'mongs' really ****ed me off. I'd rather be over sensitive than a ****.

Re: acting like animals-we ARE animals. Our behavioural characteristics are that of our particular species and we have our own societal code. But we're bound by the same laws of nature that all other animals are. We're not special.

A neuroscientist would say differently, higher order species have lots of similarities to human behaviour but in other ways we are quite different. Of course we have unconcious primal desires, but to say that we are no different in terms of behavior to a hyena is to be as blind as those who think we above the animal kingdom.

Barnsley,

I see. I think serial murderers and rapists would class as broken. Maybe I wasn't specific enough.

I also accept I have some unconventional views. Doesn't make me a psychopath however. Nor an animal rights fanatic either.

Why are they broken? I thought you said that we are no different to animals.

Rape, serial killing...it's all natural and has been encouraged by evoloution... rape and serial killing is an evoloutionary succesful pathway. Ducks gang rape each other, going by your logic...why shouldn't we?

Anyway, more importantly I need to go ride 🙂

barnsley, you really need to calm down.

[img] [/img]

I don't think Barnsley needs to calm down.

[i]I don't think Barnsley needs to calm down. [/i]

+1

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for Lee Rigby's killers, I just don't think offing them would help - I doubt they woke up one morning and just decided to kill somebody, they were more than likely groomed and coerced into it, and the arseholes responsible are still out there doing the same thing. It's not often I agree with woppit, but some terrible things are carried out in the name of religion.

Oh and woppit, I'll risk a ban for something that's important to me.

but some terrible things are carried out in the name of religion

E.g. The messiah, Tony Blair, started an illegal war in Iraq as a result of which hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Bearing in mind the concept of 'human rights' is a fabrication

Yes, few would argue that human rights are found under a rock somewhere, but they're [i]our[/i] fabrication. That's kinda the point – broadly agreed codes and norms about how we should live. This in my view makes them more special, not less, as we take onus and responsibility for what we want to be, rather than having rights and norms imposed upon us.

You can't rope me in the same category as those mongs just because I don't subscribe to the view that there is anything special about the human race over anything else. That was my point.

If you are in favour of premeditated killing on a personally held principle then yes you are in the same category. You probably wouldn't actually follow through though I suspect.

On the subject of killing, most species don't kill for the sake of it. Arguably puts us as a lower form of life than most.

What other species do is entirely irrelevant to this debate. However these two weren't killing for the sake of it. They had a cause they were pursuing, in their own heads.

I want you to understand that your reaction to this is simply down to your social conditioning - one which I share. But social conditioning is a dangerously flexible thing, because it's just 'what everyone else is doing'. See Nazi Germany, Rwanda and just about any other atrocity.

In their eyes, what they were doing was justifiable amd for a good cause.

We're not special.

We are arguing about ethics and justice on the internet. Of course we are ffs.

Well [b]I'm[/b] special. That's for certain! It's everyone else that's the problem! 8)

Yes, few would argue that human rights are found under a rock somewhere, but they're our fabrication. That's kinda the point – broadly agreed codes and norms about how we should live. This in my view makes them more special, not less, as we take onus and responsibility for what we want to be, rather than having rights and norms imposed upon us.

I saved a good quote on this from somewhere...

Nature is tyrannical, not free. The strong feast on the weak. There are no “rights”—a uniquely human concept—and the only protections are those that individual organisms or herds evolved. Indeed, outside of man, there is no mercy, there is only power.

And here’s a good quote from Hoffer:

"[b]Man is the only creature that strives to surpass himself, and yearns for the impossible.[/b]"

And that is a moral distinction that distinguishes us and makes us unique from all other known life forms in the universe.

Eric Hoffer opposed tyranny and supported human exceptionalism. That is not an accident. The two are inextricably connected.

This is how we are different, it is both a gift and a curse.

barnsleymitch - Member

It was the post about disposing of broken members of our society that I was questioning, but using the term 'mongs' really * me off. I'd rather be over sensitive than a *.

I assume you'd never use the words 'idiot', 'cretin', 'moron' or 'imbecile' either then?

I know what you're saying, but mongs is probably the term that's most recently used. And no, I'm careful about using the other terms you mentioned as well. Sickening, aren't I ? 😉

Moron is also Swedish for morning, can be used as a greeting; and Welsh for carrot.

Mong:

Material Organic Non-Gycerol.

Pretty well sums them up!

I assume you'd never use the words 'idiot', 'cretin', 'moron' or 'imbecile' either then?

It's 2014 and people still say stuff like this. Won't someone think of the PC Brigade? 🙁

Someone that wants to kill lesser people should probably pick up a history book and go easy on using the word "mong".

And be less of a dick.

Certainly not fan of the death penalty, and would not like them to see a belt or shoe laces when in prison.

Darcy - I admitted in my original post that I was probably being a bit pc. I think the point I was trying to make was that yes, all those terms were at one time used to diagnose mental disorder and learning disabilities, but 'mong' is the only one still in use (sadly) as a derogatory term for people with downs. It's as outmoded and offensive as many of the other terms that were popular in the 70's, I really don't get why people think it's ok to use it. Right, handwringing over, I'm off for a pint.

**** them Barnsley. Hope you had a good pint.

Darcy - I admitted in my original post that I was probably being a bit pc. I think the point I was trying to make was that yes, all those terms were at one time used to diagnose mental disorder and learning disabilities, but 'mong' is the only one still in use (sadly) as a derogatory term for people with downs. It's as outmoded and offensive as many of the other terms that were popular in the 70's, I really don't get why people think it's ok to use it. Right, handwringing over, I'm off for a pint.

In case my sarcasm didn't come across marnsleybitch, I'm in agreement with you dude!

Christ knows Darcy - sometimes, I don't know who I've pissed off, and I do get on my high horse (occasionally). I've just re - read that, and it doesn't even make sense to me. It was a very big pint. Night all!

You won't get this on the 6 o'clock news 😯

I'm surprised at you being taken in by a conspiracy theory, smith - unusual for you.

What a pile of shite that film is.

I don't support the death penalty, but I do find myself wondering if they could come up with an environment and/or punishment that would really scare people and act as a better deterant. The problem is that it would be legally against a criminal's human rights and be morally reprehensible.

Ideally we'd ship them off to a desperately unpleasant jail in a country that ignores such things. I can't condone physical torture though, but maybe you could work with deprivation and the mental torture side? Imprisonment is largely a mental punishment anyway.

So what would scare potential martyrs? Something in a Room 101 style where they have to endure what they fear the most? Tailored to the individual even so it's not even known what it might be. Given all the things they hate it should be easy. How about deprogramming them to be American?

I acknowledge such thoughts are fanciful though. Hopefully no offence has been caused.

That would definitely work. Everyone knows that Russia, Honduras, Brazil and South Africa have really low murder rates because their jails are so hellish.

That link is hillarious - see what a grip on reality he has .

In one of the articles Kollerstrom wrote that one million Jews had died in the Holocaust, not six million, that gas chambers had operated in Auschwitz only for the purpose of disinfection, and that "the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans ... in French and American-run concentration camps," material he said had been "erased from the history books."[13] In another he wrote that Auschwitz had had art classes and a well-stocked library for inmates, as well as an elegant swimming pool where inmates would sunbathe at weekends while watching water-polo matches.[14]

I think we wont find it anywhere because it is complete bollocks - imagine how his family feel having to hear this shit

I do find myself wondering if they could come up with an environment and/or punishment that would really scare people and act as a better deterant.

I doubt anything would deter mentally unstable jihadist or any other religious extremist tbh.
In the past we used to hang everyone for almost every offence and led to the line might as well hang for a sheep as a lamb, Ie if you are going to get bad treatment anyway do a worse crime.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins

This was the most comprehensive link I happened to look up relating to virgins for martyrs.

I thought maybe I had wrongly assumed that the virgins would be for sexual gratification. If a martyr is to receive a reward of virtuous women on the basis of their supposedly virtuous act, maybe they all just hang out being virtuous?

But no, my assumption was correct. I don't understand how it doesn't all fall down as soon as you ask some basic questions. What's in it for the virgins who've presumably saved themselves within their own lifetimes? Where would all the virgins come from? Is there a reason why they're still virgins? Do you need 72 of them because they'll no longer be virgins once you sleep with them? Isn't this all tremendously disrespectful to women?

Stop banging on about virgins then.

I still think it's raisins, or possibly some other dried fruit. Hope it's candied peel, that'll learn 'em.