Forum menu
no UN intervention in countries where this 'supposedly' killing of civilians has been reported
If countries acted on the law past precedence - your argument would be simply brilliant. The reality is they don't - which means your argument is actually very sh*t.
And having red all of Ernie's previous postings I can only imagine his whole life is governed by the apathy and fear of doing something rather than the fear of doing nothing. Man would be rubbing sticks to make fire if we evolved our thinking like this.
so sitting on the fence is a strategy
of course not every time there is a conflict anywhere in the world we should pick a side and join in.
Mudsux Assuming I can infer from your post that you agree that the UN does not intervene everywhere there is conflict. How exactly does this make the argument that they dont interfere everywhere shit ? You may explain the reason they dont do this but that hardly negates the point that they do this.
And having red all of Ernie's previous postings I can only imagine his whole life is governed by the apathy and fear of doing something rather than the fear of doing nothing
Clearly you have not read much of his stuff ernie is one of the few on here who does political stuff other than chat on here. Ad Hominem is a bit pointless better to explain why his account is wrong rather than just atatck him. I realise this will take a bit more intelectual rigour, good luck.
So are we enforcing action in Yemen where a rebellion is being put down ruthlessly? Bahrain?
steffybhoy - MemberTiananmen Square?
Fool?
Yes, how dare they protest against the power of the Dear Leaders with foreign influence.
having red all of Ernie's previous postings
I'm impressed with your commitment mudsux ....I don't expect anyone to do that. Although I have to confess that I find you conclusion rather bizarre ......I've never been called a conservative who was happy with the status quo before.
And thanks for the supportive words Junkyard, I shall indeed be leafleting in an hour or so time, to publicise next Saturday's demonstration against government policies.
So if anyone is in Croydon and wants to join us, we will be outside the Whitgift Centre (High Street side) from 12.30 pm. I'll be happy to chat about Libya and the current situation btw.
[img] 
[/img]
Ist fighter shot down over bengazi [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794589 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794589[/url]
I shall indeed be leafleting in an hour or so time, to publicise next Saturday's demonstration against government policies.
In relation to Lybia or just their current ideological policies at home ?
Just interested and pleased to hear that someone somewhere is being proactive should it be the latter.
oh very funny,though I fear i may be crediting you with more intelligence than your posting suggest
http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/
will we see you there?
there are no foreign mercenaries,
none at all? not even the odd one? absolutely zero paid foriegn combatants on the Gaddafi side?
hope you passed that analysis to MI6, might stop another farce! 😉
The rebels claimed that government war planes were relentlessly targeting civilians, and yet despite the presence of the western media in rebel controlled areas,
seems odd, the the majority of rebels are civilians, are they not getting bombed? or if you are holding a gun/ driving a pickup are you no longer a civilian? if you are a dentist but have a gun and are in your own house and it's getting shot at / bombed by Gaddafi troops are you a civilian? please clarify
[b]not one single example[/b] of an air strike which has resulted in the substantial loss of civilian lives has been reported....it is a lie.
if it's not on youtube it didn't happen? not even one?
Tripoli was gripped by anti-Gaddafi demonstrations, and yet despite the western media being in Tripoli, there is no evidence if any serious disturbances, and no evidence of the army being deployed in Tripoli at all.......it was a lie
IIRC before it started the western media were restricted/ denied access to the streets and when it kicked off Gaddafi disappeared until the infamous umbrella broadcast, this was followed by the broadcast from within the barracks. Seems odd if there no disturbances as you claim, why not do it from a restaurant, oh he did after it all calmed down due to violent repression and the imprisonment and torture of activists (or is that a lie?)
The rebels consistently claimed that they had either repelled attacks by Gaddafi forces, or recaptured towns which they had previously controlled. And yet they were in fact consistently losing ground......it was a lie.
fighting in urban areas is "fluid", control can ebb and flow, the reality is that both sides could be right at the same time
[b]I don't pretend to know everything that is happening in Libya - no one can know that[/b]
The western media has very quietly completely dropped the allegation without bothering to admit that it was false
in Tripoli at all.......it was a lie.
been reported....it is a lie
losing ground......it was a lie.
lots of "fact" debunking for someone who doesn't know whats going on
anyway I hope that your hotline to the FO and the White House has been installed so they can get your credible factual assessment of the situation 😉
The French are dropping ordnance, now.
Ist fighter shot down over bengazi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794589
looks air to air, it was high for shoulder lauched missiles and there wasn't intense ground fire
Enjoy the leafletting, ernie. Rest assured that our wicked, lying, manipulative government won't be locking you up and torturing you and your relatives to death for disagreeing with it.
oh very funny,though I fear i may be crediting you with more intelligence than your posting suggest
❓
WTF
Big and Daft - thanks once again for having gone through my post and demolishing my argue point by point. As I have already previously stated, your attention to detail to my posts is both impressive and touching - I feel humbled ........ no really, I don't deserve so much attention.
Just one thing though........I know you claim to be daft, but surely you can tell the difference between me saying [i]"I don't pretend to know everything that is happening in Libya - no one can know that"[/i] and me claiming to know nothing ?
I am of course referring to this comment :
big_n_daft - Memberlots of "fact" debunking for someone who doesn't know whats going on
Working on the premise that no one is that daft, I have assumed that you are merely twisting what I have said to satisfy your puerile desire to "point score", as you seek to comprise your inability to provide an intelligent and reasoned argument by reducing everything to the level of playground taunts. And on that basis, I can barely be arsed to read your posts, let alone treat them with any meaningful consideration.
.
trailmonkey - MemberIn relation to Lybia or just their current ideological policies at home ?
Just interested and pleased to hear that someone somewhere is being proactive should it be the latter.
I was of course referring to next Saturday's demonstration against the government's politically motivated spending cuts.
BTW, can I just mention that handing out flyers has never been my cup of tea, and today just reinforced that. Tomorrow we will leafleting door to door - a much productive activity imo. Not only will we be able to distribute far more leaflets, but they will be placed on someone's doormat rather than trying to cram them in people's hands as they rush about with their shopping bags from shop to shop. And more importantly, they might sit down to read them, instead of leaving them half screwed up in the bottom of their shopping.
Of course the one great advantage of handing out leaflets and why it tends to be done, is that unlike door to door, it gives people an opportunity to talk to you and discuss things and maybe get involved themselves. I also discovered that there appears to be a disproportionate of amount of ladies who are concerned with the government's politically motivated spending cuts 8)
Don't think he ejected in time ....
[img] 
[/img]
Just one thing though........I know you claim to be daft, but surely you can tell the difference between me saying "I don't pretend to know everything that is happening in Libya - no one can know that" and me claiming to know nothing ?I am of course referring to this comment :
[i]big_n_daft - Member
lots of "fact" debunking for someone who doesn't know whats going on[/i]
Working on the premise that no one is that daft
so you [b]know something[/b]
is your [b]knowledge[/b] giving you the ability to determine that people's points of view are based on lies?
so please enlighten us further with your [b]knowledge[/b]
anyway is that hotline in yet, you seem to have better sources than the worlds media with your black and white assertions about what is not happening there
I was of course referring to next Saturday's demonstration against the government's politically motivated spending cuts
is the entirety of the cuts politically motivated or just the additional amount to what labour would have cut?
what were the Green party going to do about the deficit? Please tell us....
or are the questions
?puerile
Gadaffi is a nutter. He'll kill loads of Libyans to protect his rule.
big n daft have you thought about giving us your view rather than just explaining to us why you think ernie is incorrect. I assume you attack him with your petty digs as your own attempts to explain your own view are laughably poor- though admittedly you are bright enough to have realised this- chapeau but a bit pathetic TBH.
Lets face it we need their oil. So since we originally backed what appears to be the losing side, we now are going in under the auspices of saving the rebels and stopping an humanitarian disaster. Like we give a monkies what happens to these people! The UN should have gone in straight away rather than dithering, this just shows that Europe and the UN have no teeth. Better fill those Petrol tanks peeps 1.50 a litre here we come.
I merely note the it's unsurprising that someone under the moniker "Ernie Lynch" defends the "revolution", I suppose he'll defend the collective trials and firing squads afterwards as well.
especially for Junkyard
The failure of the UN to be able to deal with fast evolving events is essentially due to it's very nature. In Tunisia and Egypt the strong military infrastructure maintained stability and did the essential thing which is not to shoot lots of people. This allowed the political situations to develop and the changes to date happen relatively peacefully. In Libya the military was weak as Gaddafi was keen to ensure that history didn't repeat itself. This meant that the essential stabilisation was missing and events developed to where we are now. Personally I feel there needs to be more international will to stop countries using significant military force against civilians, however the problem is how to do it.
The current intervention is arguably too late to stop a protracted end game where lots more people will die. Would a no fly zone on Day 1 or 2 have stopped it? I don't know, but it would have set a marker where military force was seen to be a step too far for Gaddafi and may have stopped events unrolling as they are
Is the current action appropriate? Arguably you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Personally I feel that 24 rolling news puts some countries on the back foot in terms of decision making as there is the constant need to respond to inane questions live to the world who are getting the latest footage. I don't think the UK government has run at this with glee, it has exposed a lot of issues with the defence review and the strategy behind it. Lots of Cdr Forisque-Smyth's will be writing to the Telegraph/ Spectator telling of their disgust at the loss in capabilities, poor decision making and the rest of the "I told you so". We also have the issue of "where" as Yemen is potentially on a similar path.
As for Bahrain, I hope that lots of diplomatic action is going on to stop the current response to the protests. The US needs to be asking all the "friendly" dictatorships what their transition plan is. Simply because they either do it now on the front foot or soon on the back foot, Jordan may be a good example of this.
As for what are the facts? Hell I don't know. Everyone manipulates what is put out on the media and there are shades of grey. The intelligent programme about the manipulation of big news media in the run up to the gulf war shows that. At the same the stories about the "cockup's" still get out. Do I have a list of "lies", no I don't. Do I have any certainties?
Yes, using the military to shoot unarmed civilians engaged in peaceful protest is wrong. We found that out the hard way.
Please feel free to use any of the following
petty digs
laughably poor
pathetic
puerile
your inability to provide an intelligent and reasoned argument
fill your boots! 😉
i would ordinarily but that post is a bit long and the washing up needs doing 😉
[teacher mode]Well reasoned and an overall cogently argued view. Keep up the good work [/teacher mode]
I dont really disagree with most of what you have said but is it not better to debate like this than just see who is the best at arguing?
it is no surprise that those who are best at arguing are often the best at reasoning as well. I prefer more of the later than the former but do clearly do both at times on here.
Cheers.
I see another medal on the way 🙁
is it not better to debate like this
yes but some debates end up with a variation of the usual rubbish and insults for those who disagree
when that starts I feel it's best to review the certainties of peoples arguments 😉
am i allowed to say told "told you so yet"? 😉
I'm sure the Navy's Tomahawks already have their targets picked 😉
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-long-until-we-start-bombing-libya-then
big_n_daft - MemberI merely note the it's unsurprising that someone under the moniker "Ernie Lynch" defends the "revolution", I suppose he'll defend the collective trials and firing squads afterwards as well.
And there lies the reason why despite your best efforts, I can't be arsed to take the bait and respond to your pathetic attempts to provoke me.
TJ might well react in a predictable way to blatant lies and false claims, but I'm someone completely different.
As it is now an established fact that you carefully trawl through all my posts with a fine tooth comb, we can be absolutely certain that you read my first post on this thread. Which of course included the following :
[i]"......in no way am I a supporter of Gaddafi, he clearly is a sandwich short of a picnic, and I remember when the first reports arrived from the opposition that he was bombing civilians, saying to my bother that they should impose an immediate no-fly zone."[/i]
I was going to elaborate and explain more fully why I am so strongly opposed to Gaddafi, including as an example, why I am so disgusted by his appalling treatment of Palestinians in Libya (I passionately support the Palestinian people as they are expelled from countries and slaughtered unarmed in their thousands - as the US stands back and does nothing - war crimes against Palestinians don't count)
I could have written a big long spiel denouncing Gaddafi's corrupt regime, but then of course I would have merely been responding to a deliberate lie which was designed to provoke a reaction. If I bother to respond to any of your posts at all big and daft, it's under my terms not yours.
I can't comment on the rest of your post as I couldn't be arsed to give it more than a cursory glance. The impression I got was that it was incoherent gobbledygook.......something about the Libyan army being weak. Still, Junkyard appears to have been reasonably impressed - let's hope he right to be so. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys what your views on Libya are.
legend - Memberam i allowed to say "told you so" yet?
Everyone should have their "told you so" moment.
And it's never too early to say it.
Thanks Ernie,
told you so.
Mark.
p.s. damn that really does feel good 😉
Yes, say it early and say it often !
Although not too often, you'll just p*ss people off..............I noticed you're saying it on another thread as well
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys what your views on Libya are
does this make my views less valid than yours?
blatant lies
where? quote me. Or is supposition lying in your world?
I, on the other, do not hide my feeling that there must be war. Big war, the mother of all wars. War!
Cancel each other out. Winner takes all ... until another winner emerges then the cycle starts again ...
Let the war begins and let the media rejoice. Look at BBC, Channel 4 etc ... All hail the media. All hail the Dear Leaders. All hail those who go to war.
😈
does this make my views less valid than yours?
No of course not. It means that whilst you are clearly very interested in my views, I am remarkably uninterested in yours.
Shame the UN did nothing about Mugabi, or any mention of Yemen or Bahrain, as there is a large uprising in Libya the have taken the opportunity to get rid of a thorn in there side. Fills me with dread though.