[Closed] Lib Dems

glad to see people have a view on this

I just find it incredible that their core manifesto promise was completely abandoned, and its when it is brought up its "like its all in the past, move on"
the thing is my eldest "child" who is in her third year on university is now saddled with a debt for most of her working life, and more embarrassingly I voted for them on this pledge.
Thank god her debt will be less than English students
Poor old Gordon B, who advised him with " I agree with Nick" on those debates. Mr Brown is a bear of aman and should have used this during his campaign
I believe that in the discussions after the election the Tories offered Mr Clegg deputies job whilst Labour offered nothing, no wonder they joined the tories
So back to a two party system, or three here in Wales

So what are the odds on a Sir Nick after the election then

I think anyone still supporting the LDs after the last five years is suffering a severe case of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

yes but tuition fees is massive

Clearly, you haven't been able to afford any.

I can't see which bits of tory excess they have curbed ?

NHS still being privatised, Grayling privatisation of the social care sector, economy still unresolved (all parties sticking fingers in ears on that one), bent over on tuition fees, nothing to show for voting reforms etc, press regulation didn't happen and murdoch still a malevolent force, teachers conditions still not improving, bedroom tax and vilification of the poor..

so where have they had meaningful input ???

Labour offered nothing

and still do 🙂

Their entire election strategy will revolve around' Yes it's been grim, but without us it would've been far worse...'

I could not vote for them though as what you get is a roll of the dice in terms of who they prop up and what they will deliver.

The one thing you do know is it will have **** all to do with their manifesto or principle.

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

They now want to play the King/Queen maker ... 😯

so where have they had meaningful input ???

If we'd have had a full blown Tory majority we'd have had slavery re-introduced, the poor house brought back and exemption from all criminal offences for anyone earning over £1m....

*possibly....

devash - Member
...responsibility for saddling the future generation with crippling debt.

the debt is far from crippling, and thanks to the Lib dems and their U-turn, it costs each graduate £50/month LESS than before.

IMO, people, are overly harsh in their judgement of the LDs. We have v little recent experience of coalition governments and two parties have had to make a fist of a difficulty task made harder by the fact that they differ widely on many policy issues. But on the whole, they have done a pretty good job. Yes they have made mistakes but on balance a 6 or 7/10. And that includes dealing with Uncle Vince in their midst - as destructive as KP but without the talent.

There is plenty to be cynical about - and they now have to ask themselves if the grab for power was worth it. But there is a massive difference between being a minority opposition party and one who had to actually make the tough decisions especially dealing with the slow emergence from recession and excessive levels of debt. In power, they have executed reasonably well given he awkward bedfellows. Perhaps they and others will learn the difference between being in government and in opposition. The latter is much easier than the former.

Dreadful ties and logos though! And they spent money on image consultants

Given that these are politicians we are talking about I really don't get why so many are so vexed about the Lib Dem "u-turns". It is a coalition govt and that tends to mean neither side gets to do all that they want. It may well be that the Lib Dems when in more detailed discussions about the tuition fees decided that on balance their preferred approach was unworkable. Who knows. But to throw your toys out of the pram over that seems rather small minded and perhaps the Lib Dems would be better off without your vote. In the same way that blanket statements such as the Tories being corrupt makes me remember that this is, of course, STW where the trolling never stops. That and the rather irrational frothing of the left leaning members. 😆

blanket statements such as the Tories being corrupt

You mean just not exclusively, other parties have dabbled as well.......

Always worth a chuckle:
http://whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com

Trying to dig an article out on politics.co.uk too that goes into a lot of the stuff the LDs have done to soften policies the Tories were pushing through.

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

<pedant> Ashdown was SBS. </pedant>

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

<pedant> Ashdown was SBS. </pedant>

😳

I really don't get why so many are so vexed about the Lib Dem "u-turns

FWIW i agree they get more grieve but I also think they sold out way more than any other

where the trolling never stops. That and the rather irrational frothing of the left leaning members

IMHO that is so much more STW; moan about something then immediately do it

I thought 4.5 years ago that they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't think it has worked out nearly as good as they hoped. Completely bodged up electoral reform, which I suspect was what they held out on at the expense of other things such as tuition fees. Now there is a situation where the Tories claim credit for any possible good news and the libs are facing big losses. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing, I suppose they can argue Clegg bent over and took one for the good of the country.

I guess we'll never know but even if they reigned in a small amount of May's authoritarian leanings or Gove's return to the 50's education policies then maybe it's worth it.

(a wavering lib dem supporter)

Gove's return to the 50's education policies

Don't make him sound like a modernist, his ideas are positively Victorian!

You are an example to us all of in how to avoid trolling

IMHO that is so much more STW; moan about something then immediately do it

I think you may have missed my smiley. I tried to use a bigger one so that it was obvious that the last part was tongue in cheek. Obviously not a big enough one. Lets try this 🙂 🙂

Labour Jack Straw Tony Blair up to their elbows in torture and military adventurism. Brown fiscal stupidity.
Conservatives privatisation of NHS assault on the liberty of the citizen, treating taxes as a cash cow for international non taxpaying corporations, total breakdown of the criminal justice system, mad authoritarian May and frankly dishonest Grayling.
UKIP racist and incompetent .
Green idealistic principled unelectable.

So still voting Lib Dem, they may well have moderated the Tories worst excesses and in an age when people are being financially penalised for having one two many rooms in the only house available for them and Dangerous offenders are being monitored by private companies cutting supervision to a minimum ,I can't get that worked up by students paying for their higher education .

I do think they blew it by not actually pulling out of the coalition and triggering an election earlier but that is the danger with modern career politicians they view it as a job not a public duty and so go for job security not points of principal .

I can't get that worked up by students paying for their higher education .

Same here. If you need a degree for your career then odds are you'll have higher lifetime earnings and be able to pay (some of it) back, if you don't need a degree for your career WTF are you going to University. The right to spend 3-4 years smoking dope and listening to The Doors for free is not one I'll be defending. Plus I hated The Doors.

Difficult to know what's trolling and what's not, on balance "the Tories are as honest as the day is long" is probably more inflammatory to more people than "the Tories are a bunch of corrupt ****s".

Either statement could perhaps be delivered with more subtility but that would require a university degree education beyond my means.
(And one statement correct).

Who do you reckon came up with the tag line "Winning here" on the LD posters? At least they have kept their sense of humour in all this.

footflaps - Member

All parties have made a U turn on something at some point......

In the case of election pledges that is simply not true.

I'm not completely certain about the Tories but I don't know of one single case in which Labour have made a firm election pledge, as the LibDems did on tuition fees, where they went on to preform a complete U-turn on the pledge, as the LibDems have.

Perhaps you can think of a few footflaps ? And btw we are talking about "pledges" ........ solemn and binding promises.

Of course not all pledges have been delivered on 100%, some despite best intentions haven't quite hit their target 100% but I cannot think of one single case where, the Labour Party at least, has made a firm election pledge and then [i]deliberately[/i] did the [i]complete[/i] opposite to what they pledged to do, as the LibDems have.

The LibDems as the result of their deliberate actions have further significantly discredited British politics.

And this btw is the party which produced this video before the last election.

footflaps - Member

Personally I think we send too many people to university to do pointless degrees which just wastes money, so it's not something I'd hold against them....

Whether the pledge was a good idea or not is completely irrelevant. It was made and some people will have voted on the basis of that pledge, that after all was the whole intention behind the high level publicity that the LibDems chose to attach to it.

All debate concerning whether the policy was a good one or not ceased at this point :

[img] [/img]

To happily accept the huge abuse of trust committed by the LibDems simply helps increase the disreputable character of British politics. It is only by people demanding higher integrity from politicians that we can expect less disreputable behaviour. Otherwise we only have ourselves blame.

If you want British politics to improve rather than deteriorate then don't reward dishonesty.

I'm not completely certain about the Tories but I don't know of one single case in which Labour have made a firm election pledge, as the LibDems did on tuition fees, where they went on to preform a complete U-turn on the pledge, as the LibDems have

10p tax rate?. Granted, it took a few years, but 'good old Gordon' brought it in, then whipped it away.

The 10p tax rate was not an election pledge.

Here are all the election pledges made by Labour 1997-2005 :

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+labours+election+pledge+cards/507807.html

Some provide a clear commitment to achieve specific targets while others are vague. I can't see a single example where Labour has deliberately done the complete opposite to what they pledged to do. As the LibDems have.

and yet, by breaking their promise, they reduced the amount graduates have to pay by £600/year.

the stinkers!

If you want British politics to improve rather than deteriorate then don't reward dishonesty.

Are you suggesting we don't vote?

To happily accept the huge abuse of trust committed by the LibDems simply helps increase the disreputable character of British politics.

Or you could just be pragmatic and vote for whichever party best fits your aims (as none will ever match them 100%) and accept that not everything goes to plan.

Although you are welcome to take this betrayal with you to the grave as that is your prerogative 😉

[img] [/img]

Does Cleggis GAF anymore? He gives all the impression of a guy who has come to terms with his position and is now in a slightly euphoric state. The LDs are going to get wiped in the next election. There is a vague idea that they could just hold the balance of power but even that looks tenuous. All this is known now.

So he has made it to a place that most LDs can only dream about, he has enjoyed (?) the trappings of power and from 2015, pastures new. He is in the acceptance phase and seemingly more relaxed as a result.

He'll do a Mandleson, and swan off back to Europe as the Commissioner for something-or-other. Brussels is his spiritual home anyway.

Of course he is unworried; he's got a seat in the Lords to look forward to.

Sure, next thing will be he won't even bother dressing up anymore. Oh, wait a sec......Cleggy in his jeans!!!!

I really don't understand why people still insist on bringing it up

and yet, by breaking their promise, they reduced the amount graduates have to pay by £600/year.

the stinkers!

you are wonga and I will see you in court for misleading financial advice 😕

Junkyard - lazarus

That is an interesting way of explaining how the debt it larger but paid back by smaller amounts over a longer time

you are wonga and I will see you in court for misleading financial advice

long, long ago, student debt had already reached the point where very few people ever paid back the full debt - they just made the monthly paye payments, waiting for the day, 25 years away, that the debt would be wiped.

nobody seemed to complain much about this system.

year later, thanks to the lib-dems and their broken promise, those monthly payments are now £50 smaller.

and the world went crazy angry.

and lets be clear on this, the savings will add up to approx £12000 over the life of the account for most people - certainly everyone on low/average/significantly more than average salaries.

i'll knock up a quick spreadsheet and come back with the numbers.

actually, balls to that, the spreadsheets already massive, i need to do some work.

but here's 'example1' (low earner)

starting salary = £15k, rising at 3%/year, over 30 years.

under the old system, they'd end up paying back approx £23700 (9% of salary over £15k).

under the new system, they end up paying back approx £0 (their salary never over-takes the threshold of £21k, which is index-linked iirc)

I did laugh at the remark that Clegg was trying to morph into Steve Jobs with the jeans and black shirt look !

Did anyone else see the 4 ladies who are standing for Lib Dem party chairman on BBC2 last night ? One decent candidate but the other three where shocking

I've skimmed through this thread and no one seems to have picked up on Vince Cable's excuse/explanation for their U-Turn; that it was FE Colleges vs Tuition fees and he went for FE Colleges (i.e. those who are more likely to be at the bottom of the wage pool) over Tuition fees (i.e. those who are more likely to be at the top of the wage pool)
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29496475 ]Here[/url]

Still not gonna vote for LD's though - as I was only interested in Proportional representation.
With that failure it looks like tactical voting will be the only way ahead.

ahwiles are you including the interest rate, based on salary, of the loan as [url= http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/feb/15/paying-for-university ]here[/url]

Still not gonna vote for LD's though - as I was only interested in Proportional representation.

They got further towards it that anyone else, there was a vote on it at least!

Plus if you did get PR, you'd have the Lib Dems in coalitions for all eternity!

They haven't a cat in hells chance of getting PR in., while the 2 main parties, cynical and ideologically bankrupt as they both are, have decided to abandon any pretence to a broad electoral appeal, and aim to limp over the line, scraping in with 35% of the vote. Its depressing 😥

Actually.... reading back through this thread, the lib dems increasingly look like the least worst option

i'll knock up a quick spreadsheet and come back with the numbers.

.....
actually, balls to that, the spreadsheets already massive, i need to do some work.

but here's 'example1' (low earner)
.....

under the new system, they end up paying back approx £0 (their salary never over-takes the threshold of £21k, which is index-linked iirc)

IMHO your argument has some merit but it is a little deceptive as it is pretty hard to argue they increased tuition fees to make it cheaper to go to University. FWIW I admire your balls for trying

@ DarcL
Not read that an intersting

IMHO fe are othing but glorified money machines trainign young people do things where we have no skills shortage and they have little change of getting employment

CSI studies being a popular one not tot mention the "trades".
Locally when I had the figures it was 10 k funding per year for a construction NVQ level 2 @ 2 years. 95% never ever worked in the industry
For motor vehicle the two local providers trained 185% of the workforce in the area each year - ie there were not enough jobs for them afterwards even if every mechanic retired- they produced this number every single year ! year on year of people with no hope of employment. they then started to tell them they should all do level 3 as this would help them get work when all it did was help the tutors get work and the college more money.

Personally I would cut what they do much of it is not progressing the student to anything . What is worse is that it builds up false hope that what they are doing will be useful and the then spend ywars afterwards trying to work in the industry to find themselevs in their mid twenties with no work experience and not able to do any other training [ for free]
A lose lose situation that we all bankrolled the training and the benefits afterwards.
training is only the answer if there are jobs to be trained for and to go to afterwards. If we paid colleges on results they would cut their vocational courses massively

Personally I would cut what they do much of it is not progressing the student to anything . What is worse is that it builds up false hope that what they are doing will be useful and the then spend ywars afterwards trying to work in the industry to find themselevs in their mid twenties with no work experience and not able to do any other training [ for free]