If the phrase "hard working taxpayer/family" was banned until June the whole campaign would be a lot more bearableWhy?
- I'm sick of low-life benefit claimants leaching from society
- I don't want to fund the future healthcare of lazy fatties
- I want to see petty crime being punished harshly, irresepective of circumstance
- I want to live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future.
- I don't want immigrants to come to UK who add no value and have no desire to learn English and integrate into UK society.
etc
Awkward and non-politically correct in UK today....but what many people actually think....not addressed head-on by UK politics....If the politicians actually debated and addressed these issues openly, it would be a good start.
Because the phrase "hard working taxpayer" is emotional blackmail fueling jealousy and hate. It's UKIPpery of the finest order.
To me all of the views you have expressed there will make Britain worse. Both collectively and for individuals.
- I'm sick of benefit claimants being blamed for the ills of society. The bill pales into insignificance when compared to the huge price of paying rich elderly people unnecessarly huge sums to live in their windfall of a house; while we punish the young and the unfortunate. Funding the odd scrounger is a price I am willing to pay to live in a tollerant society
- I don't want to discard the greatest premise of our healthcare system because of the predjudice against a few "lazy fatties"
- I don't want to see petty crime being punished harshly, irresepective of circumstance becuase it doesn't work, is a waste of money and punitaive for punishments sake. Rehab is cheaper and more effective but politically incendary in our "eye for an eye" society
- I want to live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future; and I don't want to drive people away from this by fueling jealousy about the people who aren't part of this.
- I want immigrants to want to come to UK as we are a prosperous and tollerant society, they add value and cultural diversity is a benefit to us all in comabting hate and predudice
I want an errodite compelling politcian to stand up for decent values, promot tollerance and inclusiveness, say it how it is and call out predudice and hate. I don't just want more populist headline grabbing about how much of an arsehole they can be to someone else, "obviously not you, you are a hard working tax payer and I'd never be an arsehole to [b]you[/b]"
I'm not sure whether it is a Tory or a Coalition proposal to ensure that unions can only take strike action when a majority of the people eligible to vote for that action do so.
Can we have the same requirement for forming a government?
At present parties seem to get in with fairly hefty majorities on 40-45% of the vote.
I do.
I fear a Con/UKIP coalition.
Me too& I agree ukip&snp will kick labour's bum.
Long five years coming.....
I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that theres going to be some serious horse trading going on to establish a government. And theres the serious prospect that this man, if he doesn't already, could be looking like the smuggest man in the country....
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Deputy Prime Minister Eck?
Why don't they just take turns, nicely?
Because they're not nice people.
I wonder what proportion of the electorate has actually read the various party manifestos and used them to inform their decision? Instead of voting for whom they consider the least biggest knob.
[quote=Shackleton ]If NOTA actually won then you could have a relection between 6-12 months later with a caretaker government of the 2nd place party.
Given a FPTP system, I'm not sure it's anywhere near that simple - even if you ignore the issue of how you're going to get a different result after 6 months. What you're suggesting is that you ignore the NOTA votes and elect people as if they hadn't existed? Don't get the idea I don't like the theory - the practicalities are quite difficult though.
The issue of non-elected groups dictating policies is a separate issue but one that I also think needs addressing.
It's a far bigger issue IMHO. Maybe reforming the electoral system as above would help, but I'm not convinced.
Our that we have a first past the post system.
Now if only we could have a referendum - oh wait!
- I'm sick of low-life benefit claimants leaching from society- I don't want to fund the future healthcare of lazy fatties
- I want to see petty crime being punished harshly, irresepective of circumstance
- I want to live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future.
- I don't want immigrants to come to UK who add no value and have no desire to learn English and integrate into UK society.
etc
Awkward and non-politically correct in UK today....but what many people actually think....not addressed head-on by UK politics....If the politicians actually debated and addressed these issues openly, it would be a good start.
There's a simple solution to all of your 'issues' - stop reading newspapers and watching the news. None of these things actually have any impact on your life whatsoever.
And if you want to live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future then get on with it. What are you doing in your local community?
Tory plans to bring in slave labour will no doubt attract votes.
Tory plans to bring in slave labour
That's more like it. My gardens a mess.
- I want immigrants to want to come to UK as we are a [s]prosperous and tolerant society,[/s]
a society who have promised the baby-boomers lovely pensions and then successive governments have pi***d away the pension pot and so we can't afford to pay them
a society who doesn't want to do the hard, dirty low paid labouring jobs
a society where the tabloids like to spread dissent and petty sound bite jealousies rather than their job of proper investigative in-depth reporting
Tory plans to bring in slave labourThat's more like it. My gardens a mess.
Wait until you find out who the slaves will be....
Are there any actual manifesto's as yet? As in; actually committing to anything concrete? Rather than just making vague noncommittal noises to write the Daily Mails headlines for them.
I seem to recall that at the last election, the main parties manifesto's basically said 'We'll promise to do some, you know.... stuff. Don't worry your pretty little heads over the detail. We'll fill that in later". With pretty much no commitments to anything solid at all. It was like writing a blank cheque. Seems exactly the same this time around. Especially from the simpering Millibean who seems absolutely terrified of making any statement he may be held to account for in the future
Most people I speak to agree with Skydragon but say they won't vote ukip.
I predict the Tories to take outright control.
Problem is
1) your not meant to vote for the leader but rather your local mp and you should vote for the person who will do the best job. Problem is starting with Blair we now have presidential style campaigns.
2) even if you do find a good candidate to vote for you hAve to contend with the voters who dont vote on policy but historical allegiance, manchester is a prime example, labour could out up a nodding dog and it would get elected.
3) the choice between the parties is to get pick pocketed or robbed at gun point, the general public is getting robbed either way while there is a too big to fail and austerity rhetoric.
5) the pm doesnt have any more power than an store manager, sure he can tinker with a few things but all the real decisions are made in head office in brussels by unelected bureucrats.
4) when you think about it our version of democracy isn't democratic at all, its mob rule
5) immigration and benefits are distractions from the fact that the world is in an economic mess, you wouldnt have as much immigration if there were stronger national economies. The same goes for benefits, you wouldn't have an issue if there were more full time jobs that paid a living wage. The biggest scandal that gets little attention are the benefits which subsidise low income be it working tax credits or whatever, its basically the state subsidising companies who do not pay a living wage.
I no longer identify with any party, i like some of the greens policies but there stance on climate change annoys be as science is never settled. I will most likely spoil my ballot with none of the above.
[quote=anagallis_arvensis ]Tory plans to bring in slave labour will no doubt attract votes.
and in other news, labour plans to bring in slave tory
[quoteTo me all of the views you have expressed there will make Britain worse. Both collectively and for individuals. I disagree with some of the points you make. But then it is a great thing that we can both have the freedom to express our respective points of view openly.
100% agree that benefit claimants are not the full picture when looking at unfair drains on UK society. But I do feel the current system allows too many scroungers. Those who really need help and especially the disadvantaged and vulnerable should be properly supported in all respects.I'm sick of benefit claimants being blamed for the ills of society. The bill pales into insignificance when compared to the huge price of paying rich elderly people unnecessarly huge sums to live in their windfall of a house; while we punish the young and the unfortunate. Funding the odd scrounger is a price I am willing to pay to live in a tollerant society
I believe the NHS is a great institution and should be grown and improved. However, we have an impending Tsunami of healthcare needs, from a strata of society who have been too lazy to look after their health - why should other's pay for that? It comes back to the key cultural point of making people accountable for their own actions- I don't want to discard the greatest premise of our healthcare system because of the predjudice against a few "lazy fatties"
But I don't want to see petty crime go unpunished and live in a society where significant numbers of people regularly break the law, in part because they know they will get away with it and there a few consequences. Again - back to the key cultural point of making people accountable for their own actions.- I don't want to see petty crime being punished harshly, irresepective of circumstance becuase it doesn't work, is a waste of money and punitaive for punishments sake. Rehab is cheaper and more effective but politically incendary in our "eye for an eye" society
I welcome those immigrants who genuinely add value - all others, no thanks. I live in UK and have British values which I expect an immigrant to respect and abide by. I support a tolerant and inclusive society.- I want immigrants to want to come to UK as we are a prosperous and tollerant society, they add value and cultural diversity is a benefit to us all in comabting hate and predudice
Our that we have a first past the post system.
Having lived for the past 17 years with a PR system, I prefer FPTP. Here we get a party list to vote for - and if you think the current UK system favours party workers with "no real experience in life" you ought to see what a party HQ designated list is like...
Wait until you find out who the slaves will be....
Thats the key point, who wants these people and anyone who does wont be giving them a decent bit of work experience.
jfletch said what would have said if I were more elokwent.
I wonder what proportion of the electorate has actually read the various party manifestos and used them to inform their decision?
UKIP has not got one so it is not possible to read them all
Farage signed the last one [2010] and then described it as drivel [2013 ish]
I believe the NHS is a great institution and should be grown and improved. However, we have an impending Tsunami of healthcare needs, from a strata of society who have been too lazy to look after their health - why should other's pay for that? It comes back to the key cultural point of making people accountable for their own actions
From a purely financial point of view we need more fatties and smokers, not less. They die sooner after retirement, which is a lot less expensive.
I welcome those immigrants who genuinely add value - all others, no thanks. I live in UK and have British values which I expect an immigrant to respect and abide by. I support a tolerant and inclusive society.
I'm not convinced you fully understand what "tolerant and inclusive" mean if you're expecting everyone to conform to your values...
There's a simple solution to all of your 'issues' - stop reading newspapers and watching the news. None of these things actually have any impact on your life whatsoever
The reason i make these comments is because they all do affect my daily life.
I don't really care what the UK media says, but i do care when it impacts my quality of life, or my children's life.
The crime, immigration, benefits claiming and healthcare issues I mention all adversely affect my local area.
Nothing, other than trying to support my neighbours as best I can. The only way change will come, is from the top.And if you want to live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future then get on with it. What are you doing in your local community?
[quote=skydragon ]To me all of the views you have expressed there will make Britain worse. Both collectively and for individuals. I disagree with some of the points you make.
I think your problem is that you're missing the bigger picture. You actually make some points which seem reasonable (though they do push some people's buttons and invite the instant reaction you got). But there is no solution which doesn't make things worse:
- benefit scroungers do exist, and we should try to get rid of them, however we shouldn't put so much more effort into that than into other ways of reducing the benefits bill and increasing the tax take which would have far more effect, especially given that most seemingly obvious ways of sorting out the scroungers actually affects far more legitimate claimants (I suspect you've never tried to claim JA - much discussion recently on how much of a ball ache that is for legitimate claimants). Do you think there is no effort to stop the scroungers?
- we should encourage people to look after themselves, but stopping treatment for fatties won't do that any more than making mountain bikers pay for their treatment when they injure themselves would stop people biking. Yes something should be done, but not funding healthcare for one set of self-inflicted health issues isn't good for society
- locking up the scrotes won't stop petty crime (getting bored of long replies now)
- whatever the papers say, the vast majority of immigrants do add value, we already have measures in place to stop the tiny minority who are a problem.
You have an issue regarding throwing the baby out with the bath water.
[quote=skydragon ]The reason i make these comments is because they all do affect my daily life.
Really? Give us an example for each point please...
[quote=skydragon ]Nothing, other than trying to support my neighbours as best I can. The only way change will come, is from the top.
Hmm, a good excuse for doing nothing. I have a slightly different belief - in terms of direct impact on me and my community I believe I can make a difference (I could do far more, and doubtless some on here wouldn't approve of much of what I do and would prefer me to do more to help the truly disadvantaged etc., but I suspect I do a lot more than most people).
The crime, immigration, benefits claiming and healthcare issues I mention all adversely affect my local area.
Can you give some specific, evidenced examples please?
I don't really care what the UK media says.
So where do you get your info about these things? Is it from Dave down the pub?
Nothing, other than trying to support my neighbours as best I can.
Oh, so your interest in wanting to 'live in a society where people work together and work hard for a better future' doesn't actually extend to you getting off your arse and doing something useful then. I see.
But I do feel the current system allows too many scroungers.
However, we have an impending Tsunami of healthcare needs, from a strata of society who have been too lazy to look after their health
But I don't want to see petty crime go unpunished and live in a society where significant numbers of people regularly break the law, in part because they know they will get away with it and there a few consequences
I quote these points because these are the widely held truisms that are fueling the current politcial debate. But these are mostly sideline niche issues wipped up to fuel jealousy fueled action. And also not really true.
Can anyone be bothered to go back to the pre and post 2010 election threads to see how accurate people's forecasts were? I clearly recall many people saying the coalition wouldn't last more than a year...
Well if the next 78 days are going to top 'Ed Balls has never asked for a receipt, says his window cleaner' as top political story of the day, I for one am going to be giddy with excitement.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/17/ed-balls-ask-window-cleaner-receipts-criticised
@skydragon UKIP has seen a huge surge as its the only party to actually confront one of the major issues which many voters care about.
I certainly care about the election. However the fixed term parliament means get get 100 days / many months of campaigning unlike the old days where it was much more condensed. A shorter sharper campaign was better.
@grum you and I have been round this loop before about whether people are personally impacted by the issues mentioned here. I certainly am and have posted up numerous examples before. Re: my opening sentence too many politicians and too many people yourself and @aracer included generally are denying these issues exist but that won't make them go away for the significant portion of the electorate that do care about them. Also publically denying they exist alienats those politicians who claim people are not justified in holding those views. As Tebbit said don;t insult your ex customers if they walk past your shop to buy elsewhere, that will ensure they don't return.
Cameron has quip of the day ... I paraphrase .. "After the election and a Conservative victory Ed Balls will have the free time to clean his own windows and cut his own hedge"
Jambayla its just that juvenile shite that turns me off our politicians (of all parties).
anagallis_arvensis - Member
Jambayla its just that juvenile shite that turns me off our politicians (of all parties).
You'd have hated Churchill and Disraeli, then.
Theirs were both funny and unscripted.
Theirs were both funny and unscripted.
A fair point, well made.
We seem to be missing the opportunity to be able to vote for a leader who will do great things for UK.
*puts on idealist utopian hat*
I would dare suggest that this may be the problem. Why wait for the messiah when you can change things yourself? [url= https://libcom.org/library/direct-democracy-anarchist-alternative-voting ]As usual libcom has a wealth of info on the potential alternatives[/url]
*returns to nihilistic acceptance of the status quo*
'd have hated Churchill and Disraeli, then.
I expect so, that old boys debating club bollocks just really pisses me off. Act like grown ups ffs.
Act like grown ups ffs.
Dunno, I take the piss out of my mates on a regular basis, despite being a 43yr old father of two... People complain about politicians not living in the real world, but when they act human that's also a problem???
Probably not while discussing the fate of a country though
@grum you and I have been round this loop before about whether people are personally impacted by the issues mentioned here. I certainly am and have posted up numerous examples before. Re: my opening sentence too many politicians and too many people yourself and @aracer included generally are denying these issues exist but that won't make them go away for the significant portion of the electorate that do care about them. Also publically denying they exist alienats those politicians who claim people are not justified in holding those views.
I don't deny these issues exist - but it's pretty clear from posts like yours and skydragons that for the vast majority of people getting het up about them it's largely a problem of perception, based on an over-reliance on things they've read/heard about in the media or been told about by Dave down the pub.
[i]That[/i]'s why you can't have a sensible debate about immigration, not because of PC gawn mad.
If you want to talk to me about problems with immigration and the health and benefits systems based on actual evidence and displaying some kind of critical thinking then go right ahead - I will genuinely listen.
If you're just going to come out with the usual baseless tabloid cliches and anecdotes then people will rightfully ignore/dismiss you.
Oddly I agree with you both a_a an mogrim
the debates and QT are more theatre than debate
The PM [ all hues] ignores the question says something rabble rousing to their troops then uses a scripted put down to have a dig at the opposition that the troops roar their approval
They are not in any sense debates or questions
I also agree that when politicians do or say things we all do we have a go at them as we want some sort of bland lowest common denominator and they are so scared of making a mistake they dont answer questions,
They are also aware that whatever their answer it will be cut down to a soundbite.
Probably not while discussing the fate of a country though
I don't think the odd quip or joke makes any difference, if it were all the time that'd be a different matter of course. Still, if you'd rather have a humourless robot as PM...
