[Closed] Legality of adding a door to my flat wall to go on to someone else's roof?

Get professional legal advice would be my suggestion.

Feels in the same territory as cheeky mtb trails down here in England/Wales - Something you can generally get away with if your are very nice to anyone you meet whilst on said cheeky trail, you are subtle and discreet in your use and you leave minimal evidence behind. I'd say your current use is borderline (leaving your crap unattended on their roof) and adding a door is inviting trouble and a no.

French Windows...They're windows, aren't they?

You'll need planning permission, a building warrant and permission from the owner of the shops.

You have a cat in hells chance of even getting one of these never mind all three.

Bottom line - I can't see how you have any right of access to their roof, so I doubt the risk-averse CEC/tenant would want to agree, albeit they'd need to know about it to do so*

You'd also likely need consent of all the tenement owners to cut through the wall (the outer half thickness is usually owned by all owners in common).

Is it in a conservation area?

It's certainly a building control issue, common sense (insofar as that relates to the law) suggests planning too*.

If you have been getting away with it for 20 years, I'd be inclined to carry subtly on as you have been. However, if you make an official request then you could end up being told officially not to do it which will end up losing the 'utility' of your personal roof terrace...

A quiet word with a property solicitor would be a good first shout. No connection but I have used John @ Beveridge & Kellas on Leith Walk for a few house moves and would trust his opinion.

Can you not just get a new window, ie a full sized opening one? it's pretty much a door without going through the whole legal side of it.

We have changed windows to french doors in our last 2 houses, in the last one building control wouldn't sign off if it was going onto wooden decking, it had to be a built step of a certain size, even though I explained to them that I'd be decking over afterwards. They reasoned that the wood will eventually rot and as such it's not a safe permanent landing.

I'd imagine a flat roof, that's probably not rated in any way to take any load, will be viewed similarly.

One possible way round it, would be to get french windows cut in, with one of those daft faux balconies that new houses come with, basically a wrought iron railing across the front. Then make it into a gate, once it's all signed off....

Some guy from Holland & Barrett’s estate department came and told me off for having all my stuff up there – they’d had a leak (not anywhere near my things) and had been up on the roof to have a look

Obviously, you need to build a deck so that your stuff isn't touching their roof. Might as well put a pool out there as well.

Not your roof, so no chance.

You can put a door in subject to the usual planning considerations and freeholder issues but that won't give you any legal access. It may also open you up to legal claims exactly like this leak issue - probably nothing to do with you but if you are up there regularly they may claim against you. As above, keep your head down and keep doing it sneakily and you'll likely keep the benefit. May be some scope for adverse possession but that seems pretty unlikely for a roof and opens up as many problems as it solves

tilt & turn window to meet fire escape requirements?

if i remember rightly window 'replacement' doesn't require the involvement of planning / bldg stds whereas alteration (to a door) would.

it is quite cheeky though isn't it?

This does pose an interesting question: what can the tenants do about him being on their roof?

I’ve been doing so for nearly 20 years now. The shops are owned by the council and this one is rented to Holland & Barrett

Other side of argument: Some guy from Holland & Barrett’s estate department came and told me off for having all my stuff up there

Given that you've already been challenged about your access to the area, I'd say your chance of formalising it is somewhere close to zero.

Carry on as you are.

with one of those daft faux balconies

Juliet Balcony 😉

daft faux balconies

mates used to have a first floor flat above (IIRC) McDonalds Cycles on Morristion Street (where the Macaskill original video was filmed, in part). Flat windows opened onto the shop roofs as per OP, parties would often spill out onto the shop roof, but I don't think Bardot ever thought to stake a claim on the air space above the roof 😉

Is that what they're called? suppose it's more saleable than calling it a faux balcony.

Isn't this technically trespass?

Christ, here we go.....

Probably is Cougar, but that's not a crime in Scotland, and maybe not even a delict (tort).

I’d keep quiet. If the council do find out about it I can pretty much guarantee that they’ll put an end to it sharpish. The way society is at the moment with litigation and insurance companies attitude towards health and safety have shaped the way in which organisations dictate policy.

Another reason against your use of the roof, is whether the waterproof coating on the roof is designed for regular foot traffic and the additional wear and tear, I would say probably not part of the specifications.

Probably is Cougar, but that’s not a crime in Scotland, and maybe not even a delict (tort).

It’s none residential building though you can’t claim general access.

Having a BBQ on someone else’s roof is pretty cheeky and then wanting easier access.

I bet it a bitumen roof too. What's the worst that could happen?

Oh.

If they complain about the BBQ being a fire risk, just tell them it'll be a lot easier to put any fires out with the water from the paddling pool if you've got a door you can run out of.

I agree entirely Drac.

Is this stw's "self-pwning thread-of-the-week"?

Even if you could convince the owner it was OK, and cut a doorway/opening with any necessary consents from other neighbours, you would need building control approval (building warrant) and that would require at the very least, a suitable barrier around the entire roof so that people can't accidentally fall off.

Personally I'd expect H&B to just remove and chuck your stuff out without further question, and since they probably have a full repairing lease to bill you for any future damage to the roof surface, and consequential damage below.  Whilst I accept that this is a relatively common practice in Edinburgh - it is more politely ignored than tolerated.

Now if you could find the person at CEC who saw the commercial opportunity to build proper safe terraces on their flatroofs and sell them to the affluent middle classes working in financial services then you might suddenly find it was all possible... ...albeit at an eye watering price.  Given Edinburgh property prices, a modern balcony like that would probably end up at six figures once you factor in the legal fees, the building work, the value etc.  Thats a tidy income if CEC could sell that 20x in a street!

I agree entirely Drac.

Is this stw’s “self-pwning thread-of-the-week”?

Stiff competition between the ‘My Friend’s Bike’ and this one, could be a good week as it’s still early days.

I'm surprised H&B haven't issued something legal for you to cease accessing their property's roof (I'm sure they'd at least have some sort of legal standing, whether it's just damage/fire risk or whether it is trespass etc.).

I understand why you do it, I would myself (probably) but I think I'd just take the position of I've been lucky so far and I'm not going to do anything else other than continue using it discretely, rather than push my luck and get a door fitted...

Probably is Cougar, but that’s not a crime in Scotland, and maybe not even a delict (tort).

Ah, I missed that it was in Scotlandshire.  Cheers.

Can't you just claim continuous usage/squaters' rights or some such thing?

What part of you actually thinks its OK to just 'Use' someone elses roof  that you have no entitlement to and could possibly cause damage to...if you did this and it was MY flat roofyoud find a railing 1" from your door at about the same time as you are fitting it!

We had a similar case round here and planning was surprisingly not a problem. Not sure a new door even requires planning permission - a gate doesn't unless it opens onto a highway. Christ, you could even put in and get the planning permission automatically after 4 years! Nobody's going to notice it in the meantime.

So I have no doubt there are 10,000 reasons why it's not legally possible, but I suspect planning won't be one of them.

if you did this and it was MY flat roofyoud find a railing 1″ from your door at about the same time as you are fitting it!

This. I'm in a similar situation, I have an opening onto a space I have no legal access to. I'm allowed the opening but the owner of the land I open onto could brick it up 1mm on his side if he wished. (Mind you, the owner is a building firm that kept the land as a ransom strip and ceased trading in 1965 so I'm not that worried!)

Remove all the stuff from the roof. Get permission for a Juliet balcony then in the future remove the rail so you can step out.

I take it you would be offering H&B reciprocal rights to use the door to enter your flat from their property whenever they want?

We have changed windows to french doors in our last 2 houses, in the last one building control wouldn’t sign off if it was going onto wooden decking, it had to be a built step of a certain size, even though I explained to them that I’d be decking over afterwards. They reasoned that the wood will eventually rot and as such it’s not a safe permanent landing.

How odd, NAC allowed me a wooden staircase outside my back door as it opens directly above the gas main, I wasn't allowed any permenant fixtures but that was fine!

They reasoned that the wood will eventually rot and as such it’s not a safe permanent landing.

Having fallen through a wooden deck that had rotted where the doors opened out a few weeks back.... I can concur.

looks like Renfrewshire are in agreement with NAC in that respect though- as it was one of their properties 🙂

You're perfectly at liberty to install a door but as soon as you step through it and set foot on that roof you're trespassing and as such breaking the law, moreover you're walking on a structure that wasn't designed to be walked on. When the shop tenants inform the Council they will throw the book at you and quite right as well.