[Closed] Leg strength

not sure what's the best way-just get fit by cycling

If you want to get better at cycling, cycle more.

Or do other supplementary training which could help cycling with less time commitment...

Thats my dilemna Molgrips, I have always got fit by cycling but then tried the second course of using the gymn to supplement my riding with the resultant knee pain .While my legs undoubtedy got stronger I couldn't ride for as long .Now I rely on riding three times a week and a weekly game of five a side

The gym is highly variable - if doing something in the gym gives you knee pain - do something else in the gym!

I've just started doing single leg squats due to my previously broken ankle causing poor right leg stability and thus knee problems. Before that I'd started on deadlifts which are a really great head to toe strength/power/core exercise, once the knee is happy again I shall continue.

What can you recommend to get the flexibility back to progress to a OH/Front squat?

In both cases proper heel lift weight lifting shoes make a big difference as they enable getting in to a low squat and keeping the lower back neutral much easier.

When I started weight lifting (approx 2 years ago) I couldn't do the front squat rack position as my shoulders were way too stiff, so learnt to front squat with bar on top of folded arms. I then progressed to a proper front rack position squatting to parallel. Going lower than parallel took months of lower back stretching and mobilisation (inc putting my lower back out twice), but now I can squat, snatch etc right down to the floor and have control over my lower back (that took over a year of stretching to achieve).

To get OH squat / snatch shoulder flexibility it is a case of regular (say 3x week) stretches using a broom / pipe doing 'shoulder dislocators' and moving the hands in a bit each time. I now do these 4x a week with elastic bands (massive gym ones) and work on my sticking point, flexing and unflexing the band with my hands way behind my neck.

Shoulder dislocators:

Even after all this it takes me 15mins of warm up to get the required mobility each session. I do a lot of lower back stretches / mobility work then start off with a few sets of 5xOH squats with just the empty bar trying to look at the ceiling whilst doing them. The first set is always complete rubbish, but after 3 sets I'm normally flexible enough to think about loading the bar.

Edit: here is a good stretch for the front rack position:

I can squat 1.5bw x4 at the moment
ATG?

if not, theres something to work on right away

Not ATG - I use one of those squat racks that don't let me get lower than just below parallel. But I'll definitely try stepping out and trying atg next time - be it with bw probably ....

I think my flexibility prob is in my shoulders/upper body more than my ankles or hips. After warming up I can squat flat footed. For front squats i cant get my elbows high enough to form that nice shelf that i see on youtube.

But I'll definitely try stepping out and trying atg next time - be it with bw probably ....

I'd try with a much lower weight first to check your lower back stays still (you need someone to watch you). If you change curvature of the lower back under load that's when you do damage, so better to get / check flexibility with a load that's well below your limit and work back up.

Footflaps - you worry me. You put your back out twice and dont see this as a warning and you are doing exercises to make your shoulders hypermobile. Are you mental?

Not really. I have very good coach.

In both occasions when I put my back out, I was training relatively inexperienced at home and inadvertently went too deep too soon squatting. That is no longer an issue as I now have the flexibility and know what I'm doing now.

As for shoulder mobility, if you miss a >60kg snatch behind your head, you'd be amazed the position your shoulders are forced into, so the mobility I have is nothing special by OLing standards, in fact I'm still pretty inflexible compared to someone with 5+ years training.

Sounds like a dislocation waiting to happen.

Going back to the reason the OP is putting himself through this purgatory on the bike, will having stronger muscles help you go faster? A bit, but not on their own. Sprinting up hills is all very well, but what happens during an XC race? Unless it's the first climb, you're already cabbaged at the bottom of the hill, you suffer up it and keep pushing until you can begin to recover a bit on the downs or through a wiggly bit. You wouldn't sprint in a race, except at the very beginning or very end. Typical race efforts involve riding at a steady hard pace, going into the red for a bit, then recovering while still pushing on, ready for the next effort. You may get a bit of a breather going downhill. For this sort of riding, muscular strength is not the limiting factor.

Following a lot of injury, I went to see [url= http://firepowerfitness.co.uk/ ]this guy - Paul 'Firepower' Grey[/url] - on the recommendation of my chiropractor who had to put me back together! Just doing basic bodyweight exercises I now have very very little back pain and overall am stronger with noticeable differences at the climbing wall and on the bike.

I have recently gone back to see him and now have progressed to some of the next level bodyweight exercises as well as using rings and a kettlebell for things such as weighted squats. I agree with an earlier poster that overall core fitness is just as important as powerful legs, which will get more powerful as well.

I know Paul only works if you happen to live in NE England, but he does have a [url= http://firepowerfitness.co.uk/iflow-instructionals/ ]downloadable 'iFlows' programme[/url] which is full of bodyweight and mobility training which is really great if your stuck in hotel rooms or at home when you only have a short time or the weather is rubbish. Might be worth a look for some people (ok, not every exercise is for everyone).

[url= http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/flows-new-fitness-programme-will-change-life/ ]Someone wrote a review recently on the iFlows.[/url] Its from a self defence blog, but strength in many ways is universal I guess, but gives you an idea.

You wouldn't sprint in a race

You might not, I do all the time! If it's a short hill I sprint up it to keep as much momentum as possible, it's a lot quicker. On a typical Gorrick course, it's all about blasting up short climbs. At say Margam, it's not - it's all about settling into long climbs.

On what was probably my best Mayhem I did 6 laps (it was a mixed team!) all within 1 minute of each other. Although I was tiring, I was learning the course and learning where best to sprint to get keep the momentum up. Average HR for the laps was way lower, down into my Z3 instead of at Z5, but the times were the same. All the way through to the next morning too, so not just about early traffic.

Ok molgrips, maybe we're differing on definitions of sprinting. Get out of the saddle and give it some anaerobic beans to maintain momentum up a climb, yes, I agree absolutely. But that's not what I understood you meant by sprinting. If you blast up a Gorrick climb like you described in your original post and go all out over the top, everyone who kept going a bit more steadily will ride past you while your lungs are hanging out. Well, that's what'd happen to me if I tried it. Of course, if you can recover really quickly from all out efforts, that may work well for you.
BTW, I read somewhere that the Sky team did lots of training sessions where they rode at 1 hr TT pace, put in big efforts for a minute to represent an attack, then dropped back down to TT pace to recover (!) Ouch.

But I'll definitely try stepping out and trying atg next time - be it with bw probably ....

I'd try with a much lower weight first to check your lower back stays still (you need someone to watch you). If you change curvature of the lower back under load that's when you do damage, so better to get / check flexibility with a load that's well below your limit and work back up.

Understood - thanks.

BTW, I read somewhere that the Sky team did lots of training sessions where they rode at 1 hr TT pace, put in big efforts for a minute to represent an attack, then dropped back down to TT pace to recover (!) Ouch.

None of us are Team Sky though.

You might not, I do all the time!

go and put your balls on the line and try it in the sport category of an xc race.

Anyway.. i thought you wanted to be a track sprinter?

Anyway.. i thought you wanted to be a track sprinter?

He just wants to be able to overtake someone - anyone.

If you blast up a Gorrick climb like you described in your original post and go all out over the top, everyone who kept going a bit more steadily will ride past you while your lungs are hanging out. Well, that's what'd happen to me if I tried it. Of course, if you can recover really quickly from all out efforts, that may work well for you.

That would be why sets of 30-second flat-out sprint efforts with a 30-second recovery would help. 😉

If you blast up a Gorrick climb like you described in your original post and go all out over the top, everyone who kept going a bit more steadily will ride past you while your lungs are hanging out.

Well obviously I don't go so hard as to cause that to happen. To me sprinting means anaerobic, which is over 330 odd watts - so I'd go over that easily on a short climb as would most people I'm sure.

So then the next question - is increasing leg strength in the gym useful for this kind of effort? It feels like it would, because being stronger in absolute terms would mean 450W or so would be a smaller fraction of your absolute max.. but I dunno.

None of us are Team Sky though.

Don't think it matters - good training is good training, as long as you can handle it.

go and put your balls on the line and try it in the sport category of an xc race.

Done it many times. As has everyone else. It's been a while since I did an XC event but I don't recall all the fast people dropping down a load of gears and spinning at threshold up short climbs. They get out of the saddle and blast just the same.

That would be why sets of 30-second flat-out sprint efforts with a 30-second recovery would help.

Are you saying weights would be of no use to an XC cyclist?

I think my flexibility prob is in my shoulders/upper body more than my ankles or hips. After warming up I can squat flat footed. For front squats i cant get my elbows high enough to form that nice shelf that i see on youtube.

front squats don't need much shoulder flexibility... overheads do.

front squats need almost no shoulder flexibility if you use the crossed arms position; the olympic rack position is mainly wrist flexibility.

I'd lay a small sum on the problem being that your torso is tilted too far forward, not that you can't get your elbows high enough. Torso tilt again comes from something like
- hips not open enough at low point = curved back to compensate = tilt
or
- can't bend ankles enough for proper leg angles = arse too far back = torso tilted (or back bent) to compensate.

IMHO the fact that you're not currently squatting ATG suggests not opening the hip enough... but, TBH, this is just an internet diagnosis, so, pinch of salt etc.

To get OH squat / snatch shoulder flexibility it is a case of regular (say 3x week) stretches using a broom / pipe doing 'shoulder dislocators' and moving the hands in a bit each time.

these are excellent for shoulder ROM

Are you saying weights would be of no use to an XC cyclist?

I suspect it depends on what's limiting you. I'm sure there's potential for some cyclists to benefit, but others might get more bang from their time buck with relevant high intensity intervals. Intervals work for me, but I'm basically a fast twitchy sprinter type, but they do have the benefit of specificity.

If you're in a position where you can use a gym easily, why not give it a go and see if it works for you, which in the end is all that matters.

I don't think there's a black and white answer. I doubt it would be 'of no use', but equally other training methods might be more effective depending on your particular physiological make-up.

That's my take anyway. Not very STW, black and white thinking I know, but it seems reasonable. Or talk to someone with a proper sports science background and see what they say.

That would be why sets of 30-second flat-out sprint efforts with a 30-second recovery would help

You can't race XC effectively with an effort-to-recovery ratio of 1. If it takes you 30 s of gentle spinning to get your puff back after a magnificent 30 s climb, you'll be left far behind. Molgrips is right though - it's often quicker to put in some extra effort up a short climb, but there's a balance between keeping momentum up it and maintaining speed afterwards.

Leg strength helps but it's not a determining factor. Look at Grant Ferguson. He looks like he's made out of knotted string and I bet he can't leg press much in absolute terms, but he has the engine to use a high proportion of that strength for a high proportion of the time.

You can't race XC effectively with an effort-to-recovery ratio of 1. If it takes you 30 s of gentle spinning to get your puff back after a magnificent 30 s climb, you'll be left far behind.

I wasn't suggesting that at all. But I'm clearly not very good at explaining what I mean, so I'll leave it alone.

Do over and unders and see where that takes you. It's all about being able to recover from going into the red whilst still bouncing off the red line.

I suspect it depends on what's limiting you.

Yeah, lots of things to different extents I'm sure 🙂

but there's a balance between keeping momentum up it and maintaining speed afterwards.

Yeah and that comes with experience of course.

I am also a fast-twitch type, natively, which I guess gives me more muscle mass than a scrawny climber type and consequently means I'm never going to do as well on a truly hilly course. But of course I have a choice of race, so I guess need to decide if I want to address my weaknesses or play to my strengths.

Just uploaded my workout to Strava and the climb is about 60s. There's another nearer one at about 20s. So it woud be good to alternate workouts on those two perhaps. The 20s one isn't long enough to produce much pain so it's all about power and muscle activation I guess. The longer one is the one with the kick at the end, so it's a great vomit-inducer. Short enough to hammer up, but long enough to really hurt!

By 1.5 BW do they mean your body weight plus 1.5 of weight e.g. I weigh about 70kg so a bar with a 105KG on it? Because if so holy ****!

By 1.5 BW do they mean your body weight plus 1.5 of weight e.g. I weigh about 70kg so a bar with a 105KG on it? Because if so holy ****!

yep that is the how it's specified.

The lighter weight lifters (50-77kg) can generally put 3x BW above their head and will squat 4x BW (at competition level). There isn't much advantage in being big, the larger guys (95kg+) generally struggle to put 2.5x BW above their head, slightly bigger weights but lower ratios.

Sounds like a dislocation waiting to happen.

It's mainly elbows that pop out in OLing (not very often mind):

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Iam also a fast-twitch type, natively, which I guess gives me more muscle mass than a scrawny climber type and consequently means I'm never going to do as well on a truly hilly course

Doesn't matter. You'll still get owned by the scrawny types on any course. Go try a cyclocross race which doesn't really gave hills but short ramps and watch those scrawny types disappear into the distance

mrmonkringer

much thanks for the internet analysis - I'm going to get stuck into opening my hips more. Its hard to know what is going on unless you have someone experienced pointing it out. I lift alone and there isn't really anyone at the gym who knows their lifting form to the degree some people here.

no worries, hope it helps

BTW its worth having a go at the fronties, as getting a good front squat going implicitly helps your back squat form, and overhead even more so.

edit: FWIW, I don't find a wide stance helps with the hip thing, for me mainly it's down to the angle you have your feet at (30-45 deg out from straight ahead) and the bit you need to concentrate on - keeping the knees out as you drop down. Providing they're both in place you should have the space to sit your gut down between your legs rather than on top of your quads. i.e. feet pointing out, knees out, back in the neutral curve. YMMV, you may find a slightly wider stance helps.

trickydisco - Member

Iam also a fast-twitch type, natively, which I guess gives me more muscle mass than a scrawny climber type and consequently means I'm never going to do as well on a truly hilly course

Doesn't matter. You'll still get owned by the scrawny types on any course. Go try a cyclocross race which doesn't really gave hills but short ramps and watch those scrawny types disappear into the distance

Wouldn't he be at less of a disadvantage to scrawny race whippets on a less hilly course where the advantage that lightweights have on climbs is reduced? Maybe it's just a coincidence that the best climbers, in say, the Tour de France tend to be emaciated lightweights who dominate in the Alps and Pyrenees, but don't generally ride away on flat stages.

Doesn't matter. You'll still get owned by the scrawny types on any course.

True, but my results are much better (relatively speaking) on flat courses. The less climbing, the less the weight matters. And the shorter the climbs, the more sprintable they are so the less time I lose.

I always did best on hilly courses, overtook on climbs and lost time on the descents (below average skills for the NPS).

Last time I raced (this was a while ago) I was much much quicker than the people I was racing on the flats and downs.. but much much slower on the climbs 🙂

Wouldn't he be at less of a disadvantage to scrawny race whippets on a less hilly course where the advantage that lightweights have on climbs is reduced? Maybe it's just a coincidence that the best climbers, in say, the Tour de France tend to be emaciated lightweights who dominate in the Alps and Pyrenees, but don't generally ride away on flat stages.

in the pro peleton that might be true but at national/local level I don't think so

When did you last see a big boned fast twitch type win an elite xc race or cyclocross race?

I know the guys round here who win are the scrawny types flat or hilly course. They are bean poles but can leave most for dust because their power to weight ratio is amazing

Did a 1 Rep Max testing session last night and got 1.5x BW (120kg) back squat. Quite chuffed as 2 years ago at age 42 I didn't even know what a squat was and had never really weight trained bar messing about at Bench Press in the gym. Never done a 1RM test before and that was 20kg more than I'd ever tried.

how's that leg strength coming along molgrips?

Not bad. However mostly due to battering myself on long bike rides though and eating more carbs 🙂

Are you measuring it in any way?

Are you measuring it in any way?

We need graphs and possibly pie charts...

What's a reasonable 1RM for the back squat?

I weigh 77kg, 1rm back squat is 132.5kg, 1rm deadlift is 170kg.

What's a reasonable 1RM for the back squat?

For Men:
Push
Expected = Bodyweight bench press
Game-changer = Bodyweight bench press for 15 reps
Pull
Expected = 5 pullups
Game-changer = 15 pullups
Hinge
Expected = Bodyweight to 150% bodyweight deadlift
Game-changer = Double-bodyweight deadlift
Squat
Expected = Bodyweight squat
Game-changer = Bodyweight squat for 15 reps
Loaded Carry
Expected = Farmer walk with total bodyweight (half per hand)
Game-changer =Bodyweight per hand
Getup
One left and right, done with a half-filled cup of water

For Women:

Push
Game-changer = Bodyweight bench press
Pull
Game-changer = Three pullups
Hinge
Game-changer = 275-pound deadlift
Squat
Game-changer = 135 for five in the back squat
Loaded Carries
Game-changer = 85 pounds per hand
Getup
One left and right, done with a half-filled cup of water

http://danjohn.net/2013/04/strength-standards-sleepless-in-seattle/

We need graphs and [s]possibly[/s] how many pie charts...

Are you measuring it in any way?

Strava 🙂

Bodyweight squat for 15 reps?

Why would you need to do 15 reps? That doesn't produce power or strength, but hypertrophy and muscular endurance?

That guy writes such a load of tripe.

Bodyweight squat for 15 reps?

Why would you need to do 15 reps? That doesn't produce power or strength, but hypertrophy and muscular endurance?

Dan John has been competing and coaching at the top of US Athletics and weight lifting for 20+ years.

Does he say how his targets vary over bodyweight (I guess they must represent a benchmark for the average weight)? That must vary a fair bit - Say a wee man aiming to bench 65 kg 15 times is a totally different story to a big man doing the same with 110.

Problem is with the squats - don't want to sign up to a gym, don't want to buy (or have room for) my own weights. KBs I have, that's about it.

How heavy is your SO? (Sadly) my SO is only about 8.5stone but my son is getting off for 4stone(?) so I pop one on each shoulder for repeat-firemans lift.

A couple of years ago on a ride I felt washed out- so Pook from STW climbed onto my shoulders and I attempted to reawaken my legs 😆

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS - remember your knees. Don't much about in pushing them etc.

I ride a 60lb 3spd bike up hills loaded with shopping. Have a kick like a mule and an a55 like two angry spacehoppers [b]( Y )[/b] gnnAarrr!!

Worrying about leg strength on a bike with gears isn't sensible, as it means nothing. If you are crap at short, steep hills then ride more short, steep hills. Key is though don't die at the top, start changing up gears and driving away from them, as that is what makes the different.

What's a reasonable 1RM for the back squat?

I weigh 77kg,

I dunno, maybe:

150kg+ is getting serious.
180kg+ would see you making a good show in a powerlifting meet.
220kg+ would probably see you placing or winning a powerlifting meet.
250kg+ is world class.

That guy writes such a load of tripe

Whatever you say boss.

A bloke I used to play rugby with has squatted 455kg!!!!!!
I think he was 115kg at the time though.

I can't help but feel putting BW oh squat and 15x bw squat in the same ballpark is crazy.

If he is who you say he is, then I guess I eat my words.

But he does write terribly, no matter what his credentials or expertise is.

A bloke I used to play rugby with has squatted 455kg!!!!!!
I think he was 115kg at the time though.

Chinny reckon.

Chinny reckon.

I squat, but keep it light. Comfortable is 100kg for 3x8, I find that any more than that weight I see stars!

DL is 145kg, again 3x8. I have gone heavier, but not for a couple of years

I am shit at bench (84 kg for 3x8) which is just over my body weight.

I'm never gonna be big!

Google Craig Coombes. Then come back and apologise.

Googled him - couldn't find any mention of him playing rugby.

wanmankylung » Googled him - couldn't find any mention of him playing rugby.

Really?

Your Google Fu is lacking. A bit like your humility... 🙂

I come from a rugby background

https://elitekinetics.wordpress.com/tag/craig-coombes/

First search, second entry.

couldn't find any mention of him playing rugby.

teasel - Member
Your Google Fu is lacking. A bit like your humility...

Maybe post the full quote, then read that the interviewee is Josh Hill not Craig Coombes, then realise that you've made a twunt of yourself by just reading the tags not the article, then go practise the humility bit 😆

Maybe post the full quote, then read that the interviewee is Josh Hill not Craig Coombes, then realise that you've made a twunt of yourself by just reading the tags not the article, then go practise the humility bit

I can't help but feel putting BW oh squat and 15x bw squat in the same ballpark is crazy

Men’s Standards
Squat Movement

1. Proper Form in the Goblet Squat
2. Goblet Squat: 24K x 10
3. Double KB Front Squat: 32K x 10
4. Bodyweight Back Squat
5. Bodyweight Front Squat
6. Bodyweight Back Squat x 15
7. Bodyweight Overhead Squat x 15

Different ballparks, unless I am missing something.

Maybe post the full quote, then read that the interviewee is Josh Hill not Craig Coombes, then realise that you've made a twunt of yourself by just reading the tags not the article, then go practise the humility bit

I make a twunt of myself on a daily basis whether here or in the outside world. I also have no problem apologising when I'm wrong and if* the article states he had nothing to do with rugby then I apologise to the Badlungedone unreservedly.

*I write 'if' cos I'm not gonna have a read if I'm being honest.

I saw that article, but read it correctly....

Touché

And you have my apologies.

He did lift the weight that was doubted, though. Unless, of course, it was doubted that he played rugby and I've totally misunderstood...

wanmankylung » Googled him - couldn't find any mention of him playing rugby.

You even quoted it yourself. 😀

But you "chinny reckoned" the weight not the rugby and it was that you were originally asked to apologise for - correct?

But you "chinny reckoned" the weight not the rugby and it was that you were originally asked to apologise for - correct?

It was just a shonky attempt at a get out/save face

I know. That,s what piqued my interest in the first instance.

...I make a twunt of myself on a daily basis

isn't that what the [b]t[/b] in stw stands for 😉

I can't help but feel putting BW oh squat and 15x bw squat in the same ballpark is crazy

I could buy that 1x BW OH squat is roughly equivalent to 15x BW back squats. 15 reps is roughly equiv to 60% 1 RM load and I find OH squats roughly twice as hard as BSs, so it feels in the right ballpark.

15x BW OH squats is getting seriously impressive though.

NB Bio for Dan John is here: http://breakingmuscle.com/contests/20-finalists-announced-2014-top-10-fitness-blog-contest-0

15 reps is roughly equiv to 60% 1 RM load and I find OH squats roughly twice as hard as BSs, so it feels in the right ballpark.

6. Bodyweight Back Squat x 15
7. Bodyweight Overhead Squat x 15

15 reps for each = very roughly doubling strength from DJ's "6" to "7" = completely different ballpark

Bit of a Holy thread resurrection Batman, but I remember posting this:

My current 2015 targets are bodyweight overhead squats and 2xBW Deadlift (can do 1.5 for reps at the moment).

At the time I had managed 3x60Kg...

Well 9 months later, at lunchtime today I finally managed 80Kg OH squat (slightly more than BW as I seem to have shrunk a bit over the year). Was very chuffed too as I've been chasing it for months...

2016 target is now set at 100Kg OH squat....

Maybe try doing a full squat the next time. 😉

LOL!

Bravo !

But you were effing close to failure there. You had to recruit your adductors which compromised your stability. Be really careful. You can really hurt yourself such that you never recover. Yes I am a qualified personal trainer.