[Closed] Laughable BlueRay player from Arcam

clubber - Member
With this kind of BS, I'm sure there are plenty of numpties who'll buy them...

It uses high-quality 24-bit digital-to-analogue conversion from Wolfson, coupled with a linear phase Bessel filter, and high-precision re-clocking of data from the main decoder, resulting in reduced jitter.

That's not BS. It's just you don't understand it 😛

Clubber - £2k might be cheap for you but it's not for me 🙂 I don't doubt that a £20k system is most likely overkill. I always thought the arguments on here were about £3k vs £300 systems!

There are other issues I think. High fidelity is a moot point since the original recording isn't a perfect representation of what was actually being played anyway. What exactly would you be trying to reproduce with perfect fidelity anyway? The impression of listening to a live band? Well that depends on about a million factors anyway. Not much point in trying to slavishly reproduce the waveform that was put on the media when that's been mucked about with no end before it was ever laid down.

So you need something that sounds good rather than accurate I reckon. And if that's a £3k system with electronic whatsits and gizmos then fine 🙂 And if there's different stuff coming out of the speakers than went into the mic, that might actually sound good anyway - isn't that why people like valve amps?

The only thing laughable about this is the reaction to it. It really is quite simple. If you a quality player and have that much money to spend on one, you go along and try it out. If you like it and think it's worth it then you purchase it, if not then you don't. If you think the 99pound one is better then you get that. The only fools here are those that are get worked up by the fact that people are willing to spend such money on something they think isn't worth it.

Yes, I have an extremely expensive Hifi and yes, I have had mates try to prove to me that there is no difference. I've done blind tests of all sorts including cable direction and cd copies and annoyed them greatly by detecting the difference and even in some cases got them to notice the differences once they'd forgetten the fact that they know a little about physics so must know everything about everything.

If it all makes no difference to your own enjoyment of the music, or film or whatever it is (ride, photo,etc.) then ignore it. Simple.

Not heard the Arcam player and have no interest in spending huge amounts of money on such a thing, so will happily ignore it and be happy that it may make some people happy. It's strange to think that such a thing works people up so much though.

I've done blind tests of all sorts including cable direction

You're brave....

Waves at the people clamouring for me to lose my job 🙂 Sorry to disappoint but Naim is growing very nicely at the moment, so we must be doing something right. As I've always said, the factory is open to anyone who wants to have a look around, you should come and say hello 🙂

Presumably you'd have to walk around the site the right way to get the sonic experience just right....

tiger_roach - Member

I've done blind tests of all sorts including cable direction

You're brave....

I assume they did their market research and appeal for a unit that price exists. You will get people who will buy/afford it.

I'm not one of them so where's the linky to a cheap Sony one 😉

Cougar - Member

If you, ah, need me to hold an offline backup of that for you, let me know. I can't listen to that damn album, it clips so outrageously badly that it's unplayable. How it ever got released I don't know. I'd love to know what it's supposed to sound like.

See what I can do for you later 😉

DM still sounds a bit clipped in some places to my ears, but nothing like the retail CD. Rumour is that it was clipped during the mix as well as during mastering. The main difference that I notice is that the drums are much more punchy.

I've got quite a few unmastered ones... Metallica Death Magnetic being some of the best examples

If you, ah, need me to hold an offline backup of that for you, let me know. I can't listen to that damn album, it clips so outrageously badly that it's unplayable. How it ever got released I don't know. I'd love to know what it's supposed to sound like.

+1!

traildog - Member
Yes, I have an extremely expensive Hifi and yes, I have had mates try to prove to me that there is no difference. I've done blind tests of all sorts including cable direction and cd copies and annoyed them greatly by detecting the difference and even in some cases got them to notice the differences once they'd forgetten the fact that they know a little about physics so must know everything about everything.

Can we see some ABX logs then? 🙂 How about ripping the CDs and comparing the MD5s too?

See what I can do for you later

\o/

Is there not a slight issue here that awesome DACs etc. aren't actually used in reading digital content off a disk then transmitting it all to a TV (or AV decoder) on a digital HDMI cable? They don't really convert it to analogue just to re-digitise it do they?

RichPenny - as I long-term Naim owner I'm fine with them doing well. It seems to me that they have managed something very unusual in that models have such a long lifespan. How much has the Hicap changed over the years? This must mean fantastic profits as upfront R&D costs have been paid many times over and the RRP on those things is quite incredible for what it is - but that's fine because people pay it. For those that don't know it's a power supply for a preamp or CD player for £1,100.

All my stuff is from Ebay which works out a bit better.

Personally not clamouring for you to lose your job - fair play to you. I'm just saying that my experience of listening to it was underwhelming considering the cost and reputation of the kit. But that's my personal taste and what worked for me. 😀

Rumour is that it was clipped during the mix as well as during mastering.

I really don't think that British hifi has been ripping anyone off. Sure it's pricey, but people are more than willing to pay the price, and consider it justified. I certainly agree that quality of mastering is a real issue as far as sound quality is concerned, as I've said before; differences are quite marked listening to ripped tracks through a pair of Ultimate Ears MetroFi 220's. Somebody tried to blame Apple and iTunes, which is a blatant troll; the MP3 format was in existence long before Apple got into music downloads. AAC is based on MP4 which has better compression algorithms as far as I'm aware, and in any case, have all the hifi nerds forgotten that popular mass-market portable music medium the compact cassette? The sound quality was perfectly adequate for millions of people, so the general quality of downloads should be at least as satisfying for most of the general public, certainly I was more than happy recording albums from a mono Bush record player using the microphone of a Philips N2204 portable cassette player.

Ok, a more basic question...
Still got a big CRT telly until we get Freeview HD later in the year but needing a DVD player. Figure I may as well get something like that Sony mentioned way back but will it still work with my stone age tellybox?

EDIT - realise I won't be able to watch bluray yet!

I hear that the masters turned up at the mastering facility and the mastering engineer rang up Rick Rubin and asked "WTF" apparently they were clipping constantly. Apparently if you want to hear a decent version you need the Guitar Hero version which isn't mixed by Rubin

Yes, actually I've got that version also ... see if I can track it down this evening and give it another listen.

SONY BDPS370 is very good indeed, picked one up and works great with bbc iplayer and lovefilm etc, usb hard drives and oh yea blue rays...
but the best is that the unit is fast loading and great interface, bizarley link perfect with my toshiba tv..

tiger_roach, Hi-Cap has been through 4 cosmetic variants, fair few electronic changes as well. Trust me there are no fantastic profits to be made. If there were my FS wouldn't be 6 years old! Some things do have better margins, this allows us to fund new R&D and cut margins elsewhere. No issue with S/H stuff at all, my Naim kit was before I joined them. Now it's mostly prototype 8)

In the interests of balance, I'd like to share my experience. I love music. No, I [b]really [/b]do. If it's live, then even better. I was brought up in a household where music of all sorts featured heavily and one of my close family was a top flight professional singer. In 1992, I started my first job after Uni but decided to live on a student income for many months to save up for a good HiFi. I knew nothing about electronics (and I'm just as ignorant now), just went around a number of retailers and HiFi shops to listen to their wares and make my decision based on what I heard. Then one day, I walked into a BADA dealer, spent an hour explaining the kind of music I liked and arranged a listening session with my own records and Cds. I heard my music played on a Linn system (turntable, amp, "directional cables" and speakers) with an arcam CD player. I was alarmed to see no graphic equaliser, no flashing lights and no separate Bass and Treble knob.....BUT.....it totally, totally blew me away. Still does. As does anyone who visits my home 18 years later. You'd swear that the artist was there, in front of you, playing live in your own home. Breathing, fingers sliding on guitar strings, the lot. I don't know how it works or what the spec sheet says and I don't buy the "science" behind directional cables, but my God it sounds good. Granted it cost a lot, but it was worth it to me.
Many years later I did the same with DVD players but this time the £80 Toshiba player seemed no different to much more expensive ones, so I opted for the "cheapie". If you've listened to British HiFi and think that it's a waste of money, then fair enough. Mine's black and unfashionable looking and it may be that things have changed over the years, but I defy anyone to listen to a record - yes, record - on my Linn system and not be impressed. Rule Brittania, I say.

Seeing as Arcam can still sell a CD player for over £1k, I don't see whats so unbelievable about them making a Blu-ray player for that much

More basic question:

Got a decent(ish) Panasonic 32" HD TV - is the only way to watch HD stuff via satellite TV (nope) or BluRay DVDs? I think Freesat has some HD coming but not down these 'ere parts (Cornwall)!

I value decent hifi kit - I blame a session bass playing dad...

Never been that worried about TV stuff - just got a bigger TV because our eyes are getting older and worse!

Tinners - Member
In the interests of balance, I'd like to share my experience. I love music. No, I really do. If it's live, then even better. I was brought up in a household where music of all sorts featured heavily and one of my close family was a top flight professional singer. In 1992, I started my first job after Uni but decided to live on a student income for many months to save up for a good HiFi. I knew nothing about electronics (and I'm just as ignorant now), just went around a number of retailers and HiFi shops to listen to their wares and make my decision based on what I heard. Then one day, I walked into a BADA dealer, spent an hour explaining the kind of music I liked and arranged a listening session with my own records and Cds. I heard my music played on a Linn system (turntable, amp, "directional cables" and speakers) with an arcam CD player. I was alarmed to see no graphic equaliser, no flashing lights and no separate Bass and Treble knob.....BUT.....it totally, totally blew me away. Still does. As does anyone who visits my home 18 years later. You'd swear that the artist was there, in front of you, playing live in your own home. Breathing, fingers sliding on guitar strings, the lot. I don't know how it works or what the spec sheet says and I don't buy the "science" behind directional cables, but my God it sounds good. Granted it cost a lot, but it was worth it to me.
Many years later I did the same with DVD players but this time the £80 Toshiba player seemed no different to much more expensive ones, so I opted for the "cheapie". If you've listened to British HiFi and think that it's a waste of money, then fair enough. Mine's black and unfashionable looking and it may be that things have changed over the years, but I defy anyone to listen to a record - yes, record - on my Linn system and not be impressed. Rule Brittania, I say.

Well said Tinners - there IS a difference between well made hi-fi equipment and the cheap shite you get in Comet and Currys, flashing lights, graphic equalizers and shiny bits have nothing to do with quality hi-fi .
Good gear will also last for ever - I'm running a pair of 70's Rogers speakers which are nearly as old as me and they still sound wicked.

The way I see it is this: there may not be much of a discernible difference in sound quality when you first compare say a Naim system to a Sony system but try and go back to the Sony system after 6 months of owning tha Naim gear and the difference in quality will become apparent.

Some of the stuff that you see for sale is right up it's own arse though i admit - [url= http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=4227&customer_id=PAA1433074710766KOKYNSKPOSEISOYF ]Cable elevators anyone?[/url]

There was also a big hoo - haa a few years back when a tiny company by the name of Beresford decided to knock out DAC's that sound arguably equal if not better than models costing 10 times as much - lots of the hi-fi snobs at the time slagged them of without even hearing the thing so there is a element of "snake oil" around the expensive stuff. it MUST sound better. Not necessarily so

Loudness war is all about getting your "tune" to pop and stand out on the radio IMO - just sounds ****in horrible though on anything else

RichPenny - I have a Uniti and i just want to say its the most brilliant thing I have ever had so thanks for making it. Honestly, features & sound quality all in one little (heavy) box. Has a set of Rega RS5's to go through now and thats just made it nicely.

Its all a bit personal really. Behind me <waves over shoulder> is a door that takes me into the Naim dealer here in Wgtn, so i listen to lots and lots of very nice HiFi gear, we steal kit and put it in the office which is a pretty empty , acoustically nice room (as opposed to my lounge which is all nutty angles). And some stuff i like the guys don't and vice versa.

Agree on recordings though, all my ripped stuff is lossless - or nearly all of it, but somehow my vinyl still sounds nicer. And Californication, well, that engineer shoudl be beaten, its got the worst clipping ever heard - you can literally hear it!

Interesting.

I wonder if as a general rule, you are being a bit of a sad audio geek, if you have spent more money on your system, than on the music you actually play on it?

How many posters does this apply to here?

Pointless ^^

Stoatsbrother, it's inversely proportional. Well known phenomenon. The more money on HiFi the worse the "taste" in music.

I'm not certain whether I need less or more Jitter in my life...

I expect there having the same argument about wheelsets over at some hifi forum right now

I dont have a problem with people spending whatever on hifi gear, but the UK 'hifi' industry boils my piss....some examples...

Going back 20 years, a friend of mine spend c3K on a Linn based system from a well regarded HiFi shop in the North West of england. He liked it, and was thinking of upgradng. He when back to the same dealer a year later, who had fallen out with Linn and did not stock it...Naim was now the only hifi for 'real' music lovers...Linn 'keeps the music locked in'. So my friend junked his Linn gear and replaced it with Naim. It sounded unlistenable, and dispite several 'setup' visits, he was never happy with it. Turns out that he needed an additional power supply, otherwise it can 'sound a bit harsh' Think it cost c.£350, slight improvement, but still not happy. Ahh, there is a better PSU, but it's c.£800, so he bought that....slight improvment but still not happy. His hifi went into storage sometime after that, and as far as I know, it's still there.

Last year I phoned a 'well regarded' dealer in the east midlands about an external DAC as my UK made CD player had broken after 7 years and the company could no longer supply transports (so 2K's worth of CD player down the shitter for the sake of a £15 transport). The owner of this shop had previously come over to tune up my lovely british hifi...spent two hours on it, during which I had to listen to a constant stream of psudoscience bullshit. The hifi sounded like shit...he had not realised the subwoofer was out of phase with the main speakers. So this guy has been telling me how great value a 2K PSU upgrade is, but he can't tell that the subwoofer is out of phase....a clown...total clown.
Anyways, when I phoned about this DAC, the guy who answered the phone said they were no longer stocking them as they don't really have a proper UK importer and they don't make any money on them. I asked if they were any good, and he said (and this is verbatim) 'yes, a few of the guys who work in the shop have sold their Naim CD555(?)'s because they thought the DAC was better'. The DAC is a tenth of the cost of the Naim CD player, but because there is no margin, the shop flogs the Naim, not the DAC. Does this sound like an industry trying to give clients who love music value for money?

Hifi dealers have been telling customers that UK hifi is the only hifi that sounds good for years....it's not true, there is loads of good gear out there, which sounds different, but is ridiculed by the british hifi industry.

lodious - doesn't your friend ever demo anything before buying it?

So what's this DAC? What transport to put it with?

The CD555 is certainly a lot of cash and if those people are selling their Naim's for the DAC then that is interesting but it does seem odd for a sales assistant to give you that info.

Philsimm

perhaps. and so what? This is the chat forum - not the bike forum.

With the exception of the (well-known) issues of mastering and "brickwalling" - people here have been talking about the gear and the sound without much reference to the music. Or mentioning music where you might not expect great sound in any case. I think many of us have gear-whore tendencies. Buy the shiny thing. Medium over message.

the sound quality that we get is significantly better

BluRay uses the same audio formats as DVD doesn't it? I'm (sort of) sure you can get 96kHz/24-bit uncompressed (or maybe AC3?) audio on DVD? cba to research it, but it rings a bell as sounding right 😆

I'm not a complete audiophile but I can hear differences between different speakers. I like the Mordaunt Short MS25i's we had at uni. Nice clear sound, not much bass on offer though.

The UK has some of the best Hi-Fi manufacturers on the market. I don't think they've been mentioned in this thread though.

Sugden, SME, Living Voice, Michell, Nottingham Analogue, Rega, Trichord, Bowers and Wilkins, Meridian, Tannoy etc.

Recently, Linn and Arcam are the worst examples IMO.

Loudness war is all about getting your "tune" to pop and stand out on the radio IMO - just sounds ****in horrible though on anything else

That's what I don't understand though - it really doesn't. All it means is that the tune will get pulled down by the station's compressors/limiters and turn to mush. Older records which have little compression sound so much better on the radio. I'll stop going on about it and taking the thread OT now though!