[Closed] Ken Livingstone steps in to calm antisemitism row in the Labour Party.

So when you criticise or insult Israel, are you referring to Jewish Israelis or Palestinian Israelis?

You have remembered that Palestine isn't a country haven't you? Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel too.

QED

No matter how measured your comments on Israel, some nutjob will find a way to see them as racist.

Of course it's not a coincidence that the main group of people we are now seeing on the news spouting this ridiculous bullsh*t are labour MPs who are opposed to Corbyn. This is the real scandal.

And it's not like John Mann doesn't have form in that department.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/john-mann-goes-to-war-with-the-islington-corbynistas/

And it's not like John Mann doesn't have form in that department.

And it's not like JC doesn't have form in that department, too.

And it's not like JC doesn't have form in that department, too.

Going to war with himself? 😕

Good point ninfan, the 2012 Act.

See, this is partly why things are so f*cked.

Turns out racism isnt racism if its directed at a country most people hate.

Disliking a country for what it does and stand for is not racism as you hate them for what they do not what they are. See North korea, Zimbabwe. CHina Myanmar, Saudi etc. Furthermore my opinion can be changed ny their actions improving as it really is not based on their nationality but on their behaviour.

I am also allowed to dislike black and brown people and gay people as long as I dislike them for what they represent and do rather than those arbitrary things above I just listed

Why are some folk struggling with this simple concept?

Going to war with himself?

It's not what I meant, but now you mention it...

A handy guide for those that are struggling

[img] [/img]

I am also allowed to dislike black and brown people and gay people as long as I dislike them for what they represent and do

Care to cite an example sentence?

Why are some folk struggling with this simple concept?

Obviously they're not struggling with it as it's such a simple concept, they're ignoring it to gain some internet forum debating brownie points. It's hilariously pathetic. Or maybe they are actually just idiots?

Care to cite an example sentence?

Are you really that thick that you need examples to understand the difference between disliking a black person and being racist? Grow up.

Care to cite an example sentence?

Ashley Cole is a bellend

excellent, by mefty's definitions I'm not an anti-Semite...

I'm willing to bet Ken isn't either, but hey ho...

dazh hits the marks as usual.

Ashley Cole is a bellend

That's an individual black person, not black people as a racial group.

Thanks mefty. So Naz Shah and Ken Livinsgtone are not anti-semitic, since only point 6 applies to them.

Glad we could clear that up.

He is a bellend though

In time for the next World Cup I'm going to get some flags made up for fans who wish to avoid charges of racism. I'm thinking of the traditional red cross, but with the word "ENGLAND" replaced with "CURRENT ENGLAND FOOTBALL TEAM WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHIL JAGIELKA"

They should fly off the shelves.

Surely "hatred of Israel" really is a shorthand for "hatred of, or disgust with, the actions of the Israeli govt and those Israelis who support those actions".

No it's not and that's a very basic fail.

Of course such shorthand plays into the hands of the apologists for those actions who find it convenient to conflate it with "hatred of the Jewish people".

No it just highlights that the comment is incorrect or even ignorant. Heres a simple analogy: based on the above it is correct, if not that polite, to say that your comment is ignorant (excuse the term). But it is not correct to say that you are ignorant. Subtle but important differences that often get overlooked.

Thanks for the post Ninfan, I was not aware that the law now ncluded nations as part of race. Very odd

Care to cite an example sentence?

I dont lie Mugabe

I dont like elton john

I dont like ashley cole

The reasons for my dislike are neither their colour nor their sexual orientation its what they do and stand for I dislike so its just not racist or homophobic just because they are black or gay.

Thats an individual black person, not black people as a racial group.

Also not a racist by Meftys terms i dislike zionists and Israel I do not hate jews. The terms are not interchangeable as plenty of non jews support israel and some are zionists.
Anyone who says they hate jews is a racist moron
Anyone who thinks saying i hate/dislike israel means i hate jews is just a moron

No it's not and that's a very basic fail.

Well, this may be a shock, but you saying it's so don't make it so. I suggest you try asking someone who says "I hate Israel/Saudi/****stan/France/Scotland" if they actually mean that they hate (?) every single native of those lands, and dispute their right to exist.

No it's not and that's a very basic fail.

That is why we have to do this shit not because its actually true

Clearly you can dislike Israel without hating jews in much the same way I could hate apartheid south africa and not hate white people or hate saudi and not hate arabs or hate China and not hate the chinese
Its really not complicated and its sophist BS to argue anything other than that.

Plenty of folk dislike the EU are they all racists or do they have a reason[even if it s a crap one] ?

No need. The issue is clear even if you are not understanding it. But tbf you are not alone, look what reaction you got from a FT columnist yesterday

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5e642d92-0c57-11e6-9456-444ab5211a2f.html#axzz47Cb06hI2

The issue is clear even if you are not understanding it

As above - your "proof by assertion" is not very persuasive.

That's fine Dr, it's up to you to decide whether to understand or be persuaded or not. I don't mind.

But I do mind when basic ignorance is used in journalism eg, Owen Jones and as ^ this from the FT columnist's tag line

It is simple impossible to vote for a Labour Party's that appears not to like us

That's a very powerful and emotive double fail.

Israel is, of course, at the root of the issue and it is complicated. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism need not be synonymous....It is clearly legitimate to oppose the Israeli government (many British Jews do); to want a just settlement for the Palestinians; to feel rage at Israel’s actions in Gaza and illegal settlements on the West Bank. But such sensitive issues demand a measured tone.

From your article
I think i see why you ignore me 😉

Israel is, of course, at the root of the issue and it is complicated. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism need not be synonymous, although in a world rife with human rights abuses, one wonders why Israel is the only nation whose very existence is singled out for eradication by the British left.

that is the full quote and see how they wrap it up in a straw man.
Its not the only one though it its probably the most vocal [ as was South africa before]

the main reasons for this are
1) its an actual liberal democracy so we expect better
2) its a close ally the others are not-china , myanmar. North korea
3) it wants to be a western European type power

Apart from the blatant labour bashing its not a bad article tbh ad the debate meeds more nuance that we will get from STW.

Its legitimate to dislike israel it is not legitimate to hate jews.
The two are not equivalent but there is some overlap as racists will also hate israel, like they will hate the EU. This dies not make all who have this view racist.

racists will also hate israel, like they will hate the EU

I hate israel. Not the government, not the people- the geology. ****ing calcarenite cliffs, they can get in the sea.

It's interesting to see how Livingstone's comments have re-ignited the debate within the media and beyond, about whether or not anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Baroness Neuberger has said that anti-Zionism implies "Jews have no right to self-determination, unlike other people". Other 'leading Jewish voices' are claiming that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism/Racism. Yet there are many other 'Jewish voices' which aren't being quoted in the media to nearly the same degree, which counter such arguments. What is interesting, and somewhat disturbing, is that western media generally seems to favour a very polarised debate, rather than involving a more open form of discourse. I suppose this sells more advertising space etc. I find this depressingly negative; we could be discussing this in a far more civilised manner, instead of media agencies irresponsibly resorting to sensationalism.

What is helpful, is to examine what Zionism actually is; it's conception, foundation and practice. Zionism, as I've already mentioned, is't one singular thing, but a very complex and nuanced ideology, which has several sometimes radically differing forms. I think for sake of argument, the form that appears to be 'under attack' is the type that demands a homeland for Jews without consideration for anyone else, as is being carried out in Palestine. Israel as a land has grown considerably since the first borders were drawn up in 1948, and continues to expand at the expense of the Palestinian people, who were there long before the Balfour Treaty or British Mandate. Indeed, such expansionism is in direct violation of all sorts of international laws, yet nothing is done to prevent or reverse this. So it's more than understandable that most decent thinking people see this as incredibly oppressive, and wrong. Because it is ****ing wrong. To brutally oppress people and force them from their homes, just to make space for other people who are defined as different according to religious belief/a constructed notion of 'race', is fundamentally wrong and flies in the face of any idea of Human decency, fairness and equality. To oppose such ideology and actions, isn't at all 'racist', or 'anti-Semitic'; it's just being caring and considerate for fellow Human Beings. To suggest otherwise, is to attempt to justify brutality, oppression, murder and ethno-religious cleansing. If pro-Zionism/pro-Israel people don't like that, then it just shows what inhuman ****s they are, and renders their arguments invalid.

Just need to correct this:

"You have remembered that Palestine isn't a country haven't you? Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel too."

Wrong. Palestine is recognised as a state by a large majority of members of the UN, and most countries on Earth bar the governments of Western Europe (excluding Sweden), North America, Australia and Japan. IE, the 'West'. I'd guess that most people in Europe and the UK see Palestine as a 'country'. Ego, it is in fact an independent state, albeit one that isn't allowed to enjoy full independence and sovereignty by an oppressive and illegally acting neighbouring country. Gaza and The West Bank are part of the state of Palestine.

[i]It's interesting to see how Livingstone's comments have re-ignited the debate within the media[/i]

hence the original thread title and gif 🙂

Well, you were a little inaccurate with your thread title, as it's clear Livingstone had no intention of 'calming' the anti-Semitism row! I suspect you knew that, and were being provocative in order to stimulate interest. 😉

I was puzzled at the approach to Livingstone's comments. If he says it's a fact, and invites the press to check that fact, then why don't they?

I haven't seen any evidence of that having been done. Proof of it not being true would be a good reason to do him over.

What he has said is what I understood to be the case in Hitler's early days, so I must have got it from somewhere. Maybe Mein Kampf which I skim read when I was a student in the 60s.

If it is true, what's the problem with him saying it?

I suspect the real story is the Blairites are trying to peel away Corbyn's allies.

Tom Watson, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Richard Angell … when they speak of Labour’s failings on anti-semitism and the extent to which it exists in the party it’s Blairites and anti-Corbyn-ist conspiracy, when I do it it’s #jamba-this and #jamba-that. Perhaps what it really is is the truth.

The BBC have been very scathing, quite rightly so. Corbyn kicked the review and report about anti-semitism within the Labour Party, Momentum and the Oxford Uni incidents into the long grass very much hoping to cover it up.

@Northwind Naz’s full apology was published in the Guardian on the “live” thread. It was well written and considered. Channel 4 news reported it was written along with Corbyn’s office, that would make sense, as an attempt to head off a suspension.

Naz’s behaviour and her long held views (I’m not buying at all her statement that these are not her current views) are extremely disappointing as aside from defeating Galloway having a woman Muslim MP could have brought so much that is positive in terms of a role model. Like so many others she totally confuses her pro-Palestinian stance with outright anti-semitism.

Ken Livingstone has a long track record (or “form” as posted here) on making anti-semitic remarks. His words where very deliberate chosen to be inflammatory - associating Hitler with Zionism with the clear attempt to infer Zionists are equally abhorrent. He made remark after remark on National TV for a well calculated reason.

We should also remember Livingstone is the man Corbyn wanted at his side and even tried to co-opt him into the co-Chair of the Defence Review. Judgement what judgement ?

I see from reading through the thread the classic “well funded Israel lobby” - not so subtly trying to link financial resources with Isreal and Jews and the “wheels of power”. Much of the criticism over the last few days has come from inside the Labour Party by the way by those well aware of the real problem and the damage it is doing to the party

Sadiq Khan quite rightly has been very public in his condemnation, he is just a few days away from what should have been a straightforward victory in the Mayoral election. He must want to (figuratively) slap Livingstone even harder than John Mann.

From Momentum below, don’t you think it would have been a good idea for the Labour Party to check candidates before selection ? How where the Conservative Party involved in Livingstone’s interview ? Blame anyone but yourselves for the mess you are in.

[i]The founder of Momentum - Jeremy Corbyn's grassroots network of supporters - has accused the Conservative party of trawling Twitter and Facebook feeds looking for anti-Semitic sentiments from Labour members a week before local and London mayoral elections.[/i]

Zioinsm is fundamentally a very simple concept, a belief that the home of the Jews is Israel. Opponents of Israeli, US, UK and EU policy have attempted to turn it into a dirty word an insult when in fact it’s nothing of the sort. Jews throughout the UK and the world are frequently the subject of anti-Israeli taunts for no reason other they are Jewish, that's anti-Semitism

I was puzzled at the approach to Livingstone's comments. If he says it's a fact, and invites the press to check that fact, then why don't they?

"I suspect the real story is the Blairites are trying to peel away Corbyn's allies."

Exactly. What it really boils down to, is that Israel is feeling increasingly scared that more left-wing governments in the UK and USA could have a knock-on effect throughout the West, which would see support for and tolerance of Israel rapidly diminish, perhaps to the point where Israel really did have to revert its borders back to previously agreed limits. This would dramatically reduce the land available for development, and would significantly affect the Israeli economy, which depends on Western protection. I think it's reasonable for ordinary Israelis to feel somewhat paranoid about being left exposed, surrounded by not particularly friendly neighbours. Hence the continued re-election of very right wing fundamentalist governments. But change will happen; the political cycle is inevitable. Hence the surge in land-grab and development of Palestinian lands. Israel has been actively encouraging Jews from Europe (particularly Russia, more recently) to make their homes in Israel, and seeks to expand its population (and subsequently its military) significantly, in order to be able to defend itself from potential attack/invasion. If it cannot rely on Western support, it needs to be independently powerful.

So the Left will continue to see attacks, and the anti-Semitism card played increasingly repeatedly. What is disturbing, is that the genuine increase in anti-Semitism globally, is being overshadowed by media obfuscation of the kind we are seeing with this latest nonsense. The irony is, that the European Right historically has never 'needed' the 'Jewish vote' in the way the Left has, so the pro-Israel/Zionism lobby are actually doing their own cause more harm than good.

Exactly. What it really boils down to, is that Israel is feeling increasingly scared that more left-wing governments in the UK and USA could have a knock-on effect throughout the West,

The Labour Party is starting to come to terms with the problem it has, it's ignored it for far too long

Immigration to Isreal from Europe is at an higher levels than it's been for decades, Jews in Europe don't feel safe. In Israel they know the government will protect them. You can watch the recent BBC and Vicenews documentaries. You are also confusing Russia with Ukraine, not difficult as they recently invaded a large part of the country.

"Labour have zero chance of being elected in 2020"

What a myopic statement! The fact that Corbyn/the Left are being attacked repeatedly by the Right, indicates a genuine fear at they are in fact, very electable. The generation now old enough to vote, seeing the path to education, home ownership and healthcare being made increasingly more difficult, will make up a significantly bigger chunk of the electorate than previously, as more and more young people become politicised and less apathetic. A large majority of these will vote Labour. The Right knows this, hence the attempts to appease the older voters.

"The Labour Party is starting to come to terms with the problem it has, it's ignored it for far too long"

It hasn't actually been a 'problem' in Labour any more than it has in any other party; it's just that the Right needs to attack the Left and has found a convenient stick with which to beat it. Labour, and all other parties, need to address anti-Semitism, this is true. But to say it is a problem within Labour alone, is disingenuous and actually downright irresponsible.

"You are also confusing Russia with Ukraine"

I'm not.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.566484

How many people on this thread who are claiming Livingstone is not anti-Semitic are Semitic? Further to this, how many who are commenting have suffered real racism themselves and know what subtle tactics are played by clever racists?

BBC have already published a rebuttal to his "fact".

The BBC might have debunked the idea that Hitler was an enthusiastic supported of Zionism but you simply can't reasonably interpret KL's words in that way.

It's pretty clear he *MEANT* "Hitler wanted to deport Jews and because many of them would end up in Palestine that would support Zionism". Pretty weak, a bit silly but not racist, and not factually wrong to the point where he needs to be kicked out of the party.

For all I know KL is a raving Racist, but nothing in what he said yesterday provides good evidence for that.

I was puzzled at the approach to Livingstone's comments.

Me too, despite his history I think he was being foolish rather than deliberate but who knows?

If he says it's a fact, and invites the press to check that fact, then why don't they?

I haven't seen any evidence of that having been done. Proof of it not being true would be a good reason to do him over.

But that misses the point. Lazy slurs are far more powerful than critical thinking - the clue is in the latter's name ("thinking"). Corbyn is now terrified of the anti-semite tag hence his move yesterday. His relectance and delay suggest that (to his credit here) his is capable of critical thinking too, but too late, the anti-Semite boat had already sailed.

It's like Dave and the posh slur, exemplified perfectly by the tax issue. He is terrified of being labelled posh. He is even scared to give his children the benefit of the education he enjoyed and seemingly embarrassed by his wealth. Why? Because lazy slurs trump critical thinking. So we had "dodgy" and "sloppy" - at least one slur was accurate in this case 😉 Hence also "you can't trust labour on the economy" , " the Tories are privatising the NHS" etc. Both clearly bollocks but ingrained in the narratives that dominate (what is loosely called) debate.

The amusing thing is how the lazy anti-Semite and anti-racist slurs get used in the same way (but in different directions) by either side of the political debate. The irony is delicious!

@clodhopper Palestine has never been a country/state, it is not recognised as one by the UN. The UN and large parts of the Israeli nation and Jewish community believe in the creation of a state of Palestine. Sadly large parts of the Arab population only believe in the eradicated of Isreal via armed Jihad, or "resistance" as the new head of the NUS likes to call it. If you ask Arabs would Jews live in a newly created state of Palestine they will tell you "no - they can go elsewhere" - numerous online interviews, MEMRI translations

Jews are leaving everywhere in Europe for Israel, they don't feel safe in Europe.

This thread is not about people's views of the Israel / Palestine conflict, its about anti-semitism in the Labour party which I have repeatedly said is "rife" and "endemic" - this is no being aired more publicly by the Labour Party itself thankfully

Tom Watson, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Richard Angell … when they speak of Labour’s failings on anti-semitism and the extent to which it exists in the party it’s Blairites and anti-Corbyn-ist conspiracy, when I do it it’s #jamba-this and #jamba-that. Perhaps what it really is is the truth.

I think we can pretty confidently rule that out based on track record. To convince anyone that you are not just spouting the usual blx you would have to come up with something resembling actual evidence of anti-Semitism being "rife".

Clue - that does not include Labour MPs saying "dropping phosphorus shells on children is wrong "

This thread is not about people's views of the Israel / Palestine conflict, its about anti-semitism in the Labour party which I have repeatedly said is "rife" and "endemic"

Jews are leaving everywhere in Europe for Israel, they don't feel safe in Europe.

If you watched the news last night Ken actually later clarified his remarks regarding Hitler on the way out of the building and he said almost exactly what I posted on the previous page, that Hitler only supported zionism, because he hated the Jews and wanted them out of Germany.

Interestingly on the way in when accosted by the MP from his own party regarding Dachau being set up in 1933, indicating Hitler didn't go mad but that was always his plan, then Ken just ignored him.

My feel is that the hard left are so wrapped up in their support for Palistine that they can't see he bigger picture and would end up doing more harm than good. Israel hasn't behaved well over the years, but then neither have its neighbours. Any solution is much more complex and nuanced than Ken is willing to accept and extremist language just shows how unsuitable he is to the task.

Jess Phillips MP (Labour - Birmingham)

[i]To all who think some "Israeli" or "Jewish" lobby got to me. I've literally spoken to no one. And FYI your comments are part of the problem[/i]

My feel is that the hard left are so wrapped up in their support for Palistine that they can't see he bigger picture and would end up doing more harm than good.

Lord Sugar on Livingstone - as usual direct and to the point

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03skhlg ]BBC Radio[/url]

Dashing through the Reich, killing lots of Kike; that particularly loathsome couplet forms one line in a catchy little number reportedly popular at Oxford University Conservative Association piss-ups a few years ago.

Organised antisemitism in Britain began with the British Brothers League, which from 1902 onwards mobilised the population of East London against Jewish immigrants seeking safety from the pogroms in their home countries.

It’s leaders included two Conservative MPs, Major Sir William Evans-Gordan and Howard Vincent; its actions laid the ground for such mercifully minor successes as the British Union of Fascists, the Union Movement and the National Front were to enjoy in the East End in the decades that followed.

If you want chapter and verse on antisemitism in 1930s Toryism – not to mention its frequent overt enthusiasm for fascism – look no further than Richard Griffiths’ excellent 1980 book Fellow Travellers of the Right.

To take just one example – and there are many, many more – Conservative MP Archibald Maule Ramsay headed an explicitly antisemitic organisation that went by the name of the Right Club. That’s right, Daniel; the Right Club, not the Left Club.

Its aims were to ‘oppose and expose the activities of organised Jewry’, including alleged Jewish control of the Conservative Party.

Conservative prejudice against Jews run up to world war two was not confined to the wingnuts, either. As even sympathetic reviewers point out, biographers of future prime minister Harold Macmillan show up the man’s almost casual antisemitism.

The most notorious example is Macmillan’s putdown of Jewish cabinet colleague Leslie Hore-Belisha as ‘Horeb-Elisha’, a reference to the mountain on which the Ten Commandments were handed down to Moses.

http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/the-antisemitic-traditions-of-the-tory-party/

This thread is not about people's views of the Israel / Palestine conflict, its about anti-semitism in the Labour party which I have repeatedly said is "rife" and "endemic"

Very little evidence, if any, to substantiate this. One or two individuals making some unwise comments does not constitute something being endemic.

jambalaya - Member
BBC have already published a rebuttal to his "fact"...

The BBC is an organisation infested with Blairites.

Like many people in Scotland I find its credibility has been destroyed by its continual bias against Scotland, and now work on the principle "Is it true, or did you hear it on the BBC?"

I'm surprised more right wing commentators aren't anti-Israeli. What better example of the dangers of unrestricted immigration? One day you have your country, Palestine, the next day your country is occupied and you are a supplicant or refugee.

Then of course there's Andrew Lansley, a Tory MP who claims that racism is still 'endemic' within the party.

http://www.****/news/article-69970/Racism-row-hits-Tory-leadership-battle.html

Oh and:

A former Conservative party adviser and friend of David Cameron has launched a remarkable attack on the Conservative leader over his failure to defeat what he regards as the party’s racist attitude to immigration. Jamaica-born Derek Laud accuses the party of using “dog-whistle” tactics to appeal to voters. In a new book, The Problem with Immigrants, a celebration of the contribution of migrants to the UK over the centuries to be published later this month, Mr Laud berates the Conservative party for its 2013 “Go home or face arrest” posters, aimed at illegal immigrants, which emanated from the Home Office.

He says the attitude that allowed the approval of that ad “was essentially racist. [Cameron] knows it. We all know it.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-is-still-racist-says-a-former-adviser-derek-laud-9985757.html

But yeah, it's the Labour Party that has a problem with prejudice and bigotry. 🙄

Organised antisemitism in Britain began with the British Brothers League, which from 1902 onwards mobilised the population of East London against Jewish immigrants seeking safety from the pogroms in their home countries.

Really? so King Edward the First kicking them all out in 1290, a prohibition that remained in place for over 350 years, wasn't 'organised' then?

@epic Blairities or Red-Tories 😉 Scots who are anti-BBC really need to sit down and ask themselves why they think that and that perhaps the BBC's reporting is more accurate than they wish to accept having been fed a diet of SNP rhetoric

Summary piece from Channel 4 yesterday - covers all the important points imho

epicyclo - Ken has already all but admitted that his sentence on Hitler was wrong, so its nothing to do with Blarites or anyone else.

The BBC is an organisation infested with Blairites.

Of course it is 🙄 The BBC is an organisation with thousands of people who will support all kinds of political views from not giving a toss, to heavily supporting left, right, green whatever. Just because what they say isn't what you want to hear doesn't make them packed with Blairites.

A much more reasonable and justifiable reference to the Nazis made by a Tory MP:

Mr Wilshire, who was forced to resign after paying more than £100,000 in expenses to his own company, said the “witch hunt” against MPs “will undermine democracy”.

[b]“Branding a whole group of people as undesirables led to Hitler’s gas chambers,”[/b] he added.
The Tory MP used his office expenses to write to all his constituents defending his claims and attacking The Daily Telegraph.

Voters in his Spelthorne constituency were surprised to receive a two-page letter, written on Commons notepaper and sent using taxpayer-funded pre-paid envelopes, in which he said that he was “devastated” at having to stand down.

A voter who emailed to protest at Mr Wilshire’s behaviour received the reply in which Mr Wilshire compared MPs whose claims were exposed during the expenses scandal to Holocaust victims.

Having to resign after milking the public purse for vast amounts of expenses is what lead to the gas chambers - good point, well made.

Of course it is The BBC is an organisation with thousands of people who will support all kinds of political views from not giving a toss, to heavily supporting left, right, green whatever. Just because what they say isn't what you want to hear doesn't make them packed with Blairites.

The BBC have largely been threatened into saying what the government wants it to say.

Like many people in Scotland I find its credibility has been destroyed by its continual bias against Scotland, and now work on the principle "Is it true, or did you hear it on the BBC?"

You have my sympathies there epic. Normally with flashing lights, violence, sex, rude language they forewarn viewers. But never once did they warn us before Salmond appeared on the screen, His nonsense re currency, debt, eu membership all largely unchallenged by Auntie. And it almost worked - imagine what a mess you would be in now. And the Beeb got away Scot- free with being complicit in that bias, Amazing.....no wonder you're cross. It was a close shave wasn't it?

So arre Niggle's comments this morning about 41% of crime in London being committed by immigrants racist?

im not sure but apparently he has a poncey name

UKIP seem to loose a candidate/councilor a month suspended for racist outbursts

and we see no Major papers headlines about the Tories having an anti-islam problem...

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/tories-investigate-runnymede-councillors-alleged-9949326

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trumps-anti-muslim-call-senior-tory-councillor-says-republican-candidate-was-probably-correct-a6765256.html

http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/news/10950551.Councillor_investigated_by_national_party_board_over__anti_Islamic__Facebook_comments/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34191917

or indeed an anti-semitism problem

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-tory-council-candidate-id-never-support-the-jew-miliband/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-tory-councillor-suspended-over-7738953

the Labour fuss comes down to the semantics of anti-semitism

the Tories just straight up in yo face race hate

So arre Niggle's comments this morning about 41% of crime in London being committed by immigrants racist?

Of course they are, after all, white people like Nigel love playing divide and rule, we should not play their game.

I see Ken's defence is that everything he said was factually correct.

Well, its factually correct to state that the Swastika is an ancient hindu good luck symbol - but I don't think its going to cut much ice when I paint one on the gable end of my house

I understand that Jezza has cancelled his trip to Wales due to this media storm. Bad for the political debate and Plaid Cymru must be hopping mad.... 😉

Daniel Clemens, the president of Birmingham J-Soc, said her response was “completely unsatisfactory”. “There is quite a bit of uproar among the wider campus and student community,” Clemens said. [b]“I think that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are two and the same thing.[/b] Zionism is the belief that Jewish people should have a homeland to live in without threat of annihilation or war. This stems from a Jewish belief. So when someone attacks Zionism they’re indirectly attacking Judaism as a religion, because the two go hand in hand.”

There you go - support Zionism or you're a racist.

I understand that Jezza has cancelled his trip to Wales due to this media storm. Bad for the political debate and Plaid Cymru must be hopping mad....

Problems with W(h)ales - its like having Gordon back in charge 😀

So arre Niggle's comments this morning about 41% of crime in London being committed by immigrants racist?

...and if an immigrant stated the same fact*, would it be racist?

* Assuming it is a fact.

There you go - support Zionism or you're a racist.

Trumped by "fiddle your expenses or you're a Nazi".

I thought farage was the son of an immigrant married to an imigrant?

https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-disciplinary-procedure-for-john-mann-mp

http://www.lbc.co.uk/james-obriens-take-on-kens-comments-is-brilliant-129613

Kens should be on LBC tomorrow morning from 10am...

JY re the Saudi point - again its the government that should be the focus of your critism and certainly not people you meet in the street (reference singing "rockets over Tel Avi " to a fellow student) - obviously to me you wouldn't do either but there are many who do and incite others within the Labour Party (and broader left wing movements)

@kimbers that petiton totally misses the point and is part of the problem if I may say so. "Respected member" I think NOT

reference singing "rockets over Tel Avi " to a fellow student

fellow student at Oxford?
thats a failure of the univeristy

for some reason Oxford Uni is unwilling to clampdown on its societies, whethger its Bullingdon yobs burning money in front of homeles peoople
or labour society ****s being anti-semetic

any other Uni would've booted them out, the privileged few at Oxford can get away with what they like

they were too scared of loosing donnations to remove a statue of a guy that held views like this..

One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the Anglo-Saxon race was destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[2] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes

“There is quite a bit of uproar among the wider campus and student community,”

I heard that they were slightly incandescent...

@tmh Welsh Labour asked him not to come !!

Oliver Letwin = racist

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/30/oliver-letwin-racist-comments-riots-disco_n_8893124.html ]huffpost[/url]

There is one hell of a lot of attempts here and elsewhere going on to deflect attention away from the issue

@kimbers they where members of Oxford University Labour and Momentum - not just a University issue. Good friends of ours daughter suffered years on anti-Semitic abuse at Cambridge mostly from the "Palestinian Society" - so not affiliateded with Labour I believe although I suspect had many members in common. This Oxford abuse very much was

When will Labour publish their report following their investigation into anti-semitism in the party ?

I know Jambas, hence my joke about Plaid Cymru

Unlike Scotland, the incumbent's record is very much under scrutiny. Hence I am sure that PC would want to have Jezza there to put him on the spot. As is it, he is staying away and the whole debate according to the (apparently very unreliable 😉 ) BBC is being dominated by Port Talbot (which I was relived to hear from a third generation worker last night is easy to make profitable again)

CTK - that is just desperate. Not perhaps the most desperate attempt to deflect attention from the grubby attitudes of the extreme left - one did link to an article mentioning a Tory Leadership contest with Ken Clarke as a candidate, but really desperate and transparent none the less.

There is one hell of a lot of attempts here and elsewhere going on to deflect attention away from the issue

Oh the irony 😆
Truly it is beautiful to behold. 😆

Yes if only we would all just pretend that disliking israel is disliking jews and only the left has a problem with racism and a dislike if israel shows you are a racist....you [ right wing] guys are proper cracking me up with your polemic here never mind the appeal to the "real issue".

Shame thet facts are getting in the way of that view eh damn them

Good friends of ours daughter suffered years on anti-Semitic abuse at Cambridge mostly from the "Palestinian Society"

This thread really has become sublime comedy
Chapeau.

CTK example is pretty poor to be fair and a long time ago but Kimbers gives good links that prove the point.

Ha, fair play it was a long time ago, but only in the public domain recently and little was made of it considering what a clear cut and horribly ugly example of racism it is.

Livingstone gone good, he does not know or care to moderate himself, he is a liability to Labour.

Does labour have a problem with anti-semitism not even close FFS!

Good old politics - taking an important subject and using it lazily like a club to bash at a political party to do as much damage as possible to gain points..

Come on @Jambayala...sure Corbyn has handled it badly and it's another example of his poor leadership in the context he has to work within...but to say anti-Semitism is endemic in Labour is just silly and emotive...something that shouldnt be done with such an important subject.

anyway, you can all stop bickering now.
Galloway will be on C4 news later to add to the calming.

Good old politics - taking an important subject and using it lazily like a club to bash at a political party to do as much damage as possible to gain points..

Party politics and a public hungry for sensationalist news... Nightmare combination.

but to say anti-Semitism is endemic in Labour is just silly and emotive...something that shouldnt be done with such an important subject.

All depends what you agenda is though. If it's to rubbish the left no matter what, then it makes perfect sense to jump on whatever bandwagon is going that way...

Andrew Neil nails it, join at 35 seconds:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1217762898247739&id=282235521800486