I think that the obvious solution to the Syrian refugee crisis is to declare a new Syrian homeland in, say, Kensington, and kick out the non-Arab residents to make space.
Give me a break, the Jews in Israel, at that time - had the right to expel their opressors.
I assume that these "oppressors" were identified in a due process of law, right?
I assume that these "oppressors" were identified in a due process of law, right?
No such thing as due process when you decide to kick off a war, really.
Again, bleating about it is an attempt to distract from the shared European and Arab responsibility for the necessisty of Israel.
ive me a break, the Jews in Israel, at that time - had the right to expel their opressors.
So you have the right in international law to settle in a country then when the local populace object you can then expel them from their land..MMM OKAy where else should we try this approach to make a country from folk not currently living there at the cost of those actually living there now?
From the moment that Jews were being opressed in Europe, the Arabs sought to block their safe refuge to Palestine.
It was not safe refuge it was a desire, openly and explicitly stated, to create a homeland that resulted in the expulsion of the folk who lived there and its still going on. No nation would embrace this "settlement/invasion" as it led to their own state being extinct
the obvious solution to the Syrian refugee crisis is to declare a new Syrian homeland in, say, Kensington, and kick out the non-Arab residents to make space.
No its in israel and Tom is on the case to explain how right and just this will be...He will be well upset if those folk living there now in anyway object
When did facts become anti semitic?
Ah, the Nick Griffin defence...
So you have the right in international law to settle in a country then when the local populace object you can then expel them from their land
Yes, Israel was created by international law, UN resolution 181
Jambalaya:
"What I need to do is my business and if I wanted your opinion on it I would have asked. I didn't ask so you can be assured I don't give a t0ss about your 2 pence."
You're participating in a debate/discussion on an open forum. By doing so, you are actively inviting response. That you either like or dislike the response received is neither here nor there. If you do not wish to be challenged, you can simply choose not to participate. My tuppence feels somewhat relieved you won't be tossing over it.
"In my 35 year career.... My views are based on that experience."
You are entitled to whatever views you choose, of course. But to attempt to play some sort of self-validating 'top trumps' on the internet, with people whom you have never met, nor are knowledgeable of their experiences, is quite a risky game; you really have no idea who others are, what they do, what their knowledge and experience is, and you could end up looking very stupid, so let's not play that game. Your 'experiences' do not qualify your comments/views above anyone elses. It's your arrogance in proclaiming your righteousness that wins you few allies. And quite frankly, your constant habit of carefully selecting information to suit your own agenda, as well as only using your own interpretation of facts, shows the paucity of your argument.
Now this is a very emotive subject; one which involves discussing the justification for violence and oppression, the denial of Human Rights to people based on their ethnicity/culture, and the 'legality' of forced expulsion of an entire people. So it's understandable that tempers will get a little frayed. But none of us will solve anything by simply shouting down the arguments of others; Jambalaya, you probably could have some very useful input into this discussion, as does TomW1967. I personally feel that some elements of the pro-Palestinian 'side' choose to obfuscate matters with the questioning of the validity of the Israeli state (and justifiably so, for it wasn't formed with universal approval and consensus); Israel is a state, regardless of how it was formed, and that's a fact. And yes, it has a right to defend it's own borders and people. As does any state, including Palestine (which is recognised as a state by the majority of world nations and UN members, so I think we can safely say it is one, for the sake of this argument). No state has the right to bulldoze it's way into other nations, simply to make more living space for it's own citizens, at the expense of others. The actions of the Israeli government and military are abhorrent, largely illegal under international law, and in violation of UN agreements, and even the Geneva Convention. Elements such as Hamas are also guilty of crimes, and many members guilty of abhorrent racist, misogynist and anti-Semitic views. This, we all know. The facts speak for themselves. The rest is simply opinion.
As for Ken Livingstone: he is guilty of nothing more than stupidity, and a deliberately provocative choice of words. He has no case to answer, regarding anti-Semitism. Even his most ardent opponents know this, if they are being completely honest. Only an idiot would think otherwise. The whole media frenzy was whipped up deliberately to damage Corbyn and Labour, this much is obvious. Well, that seems to have largely failed, so the right will have to go away and think up some new tactics. So far, in trying to find a stick to beat Corbyn and Labour with, all they've managed to find is a few twigs.
Meanwhile, Palestinians continue to suffer. And this is what makes most decent people angry.
As for Ken Livingstone: he is guilty of nothing more than stupidity, and a deliberately provocative choice of words.
Good summary of the last 16 pages or argument 🙂
As for Ken Livingstone: he is guilty of nothing more than stupidity, and a deliberately provocative choice of words. He has no case to answer, regarding anti-Semitism.
True
Even his most ardent opponents know this, if they are being completely honest. Only an idiot would think otherwise.
Its not his opponents that are the problem. This has been largely an internal Labour cluster f%%k. They lacked the bottle to stand up to lazy anti-Semitism slurs.
So far, in trying to find a stick to beat Corbyn and Labour with, all they've managed to find is a few twigs.
Last week's results suggest that this might not be 100% accurate
I personally feel that some elements of the pro-Palestinian 'side' choose to obfuscate matters with the questioning of the validity of the Israeli state (and justifiably so, for it wasn't formed with universal approval and consensus); Israel is a state, regardless of how it was formed, and that's a fact. And yes, it has a right to defend it's own borders and people. As does any state, including Palestine (which is recognised as a state by the majority of world nations and UN members, so I think we can safely say it is one, for the sake of this argument). No state has the right to bulldoze it's way into other nations, simply to make more living space for it's own citizens, at the expense of others. The actions of the Israeli government and military are abhorrent, largely illegal under international law, and in violation of UN agreements, and even the Geneva Convention. Elements such as Hamas are also guilty of crimes, and many members guilty of abhorrent racist, misogynist and anti-Semitic views. This, we all know. The facts speak for themselves. The rest is simply opinion.
We should just post that on every Israel thread as its pretty well balanced IMHO.
"Last week's results suggest that this might not be 100% accurate"
Oh hello, you again!
I think winning a larger percentage of council seats than Blair or Cameron did at their first elections, plus Labour winning the London Mayoralty, would suggest that it might in fact be true. Sorry!
"This has been largely an internal Labour cluster f%%k. They lacked the bottle to stand up to lazy anti-Semitism slurs."
No let's get this straight; there's been a concerted campaign by Blairites within Labour, to damage and oust Corbyn, and this is their latest twig. That's all. Yes, they've caused some damage, but Labour can and will recover, and the Blairites have now exposed and isolated themselves further. Labour hasn't 'lacked the bottle to deal with anti-Semitism slurs' as you suggest, far from it. They are dealing with matters as would any political party.
Very odd - we agree that KL had no case to answer (other than being a pillock in this case)and that this has been a largely internal issue (those nasty blairites).
And so the fact that this has become a mess is a sign of strong or weak leadership? You decide...
They are dealing with matters as would any political party.
No they're not. There was nothing remotely racist/anti-semitic about what KL said. I don't think any other party would have suspended him, and suspending him just gave a non-story legs.
"I don't think any other party would have suspended him"
Does that mean only Labour take anti-Semitism seriously then?
Does that mean only Labour take anti-Semitism seriously then?
Well, they certainly take baseless accusations of anti-Semitism seriously....
This has been largely an internal Labour cluster f%%k. They lacked the bottle to stand up to lazy anti-Semitism slurs.
Absolutely untrue its agenda driven by his opponents who exist in the media and within the labour party . Only RW folk argue that its " only labour" and the slurs amount to how many members ? 10 - we can find as many in Tories doing this and we have a high office campaign against a Muslim and yet the silence , when there is open dissent in the tories about the "tone" of the campaign, is deafening and once more serves to highlight your agenda/politics
Both are proof its tories like you doing the stirring aided and abetted by Blairites and a hostile media.
Kens comment was idiotic and corbyn could not win
Do nothing and defend ken he will be an anti semite
Suspend him and its proof of anti semtism in the party - its what they naysayers wanted and Ken helped deliver it, the tit.
Well, they certainly take baseless accusations of anti-Semitism seriously....
😀
Following on from this humour with a serious and related point, Tristram Hunt noted in the FT today, "there is an obsessive focus on fringe issues"
Just at a time when we need a decent opposition
Forum member of the month award goes to clodhopper for that post.
Nah, FF's retort was much better....
I think he means the long post not the flippant one.
@clod responding to a debate in one thing offering your advice about what anyone else should do is something rather different, hence my reply. I don't recall you participating in the numerous Israel related threads over the past few years. Most of what you've said we've debated at length and will I am sure continue to do so as there is unlikely to be a solution any time soon
Livingstone's statement was indeed deliberately provocative and done so with the deliberate intention to provoke controversy and to encourage his many anti-semitic followers. As such it was typical of him and hugely irresponsible.
Chief Rabi again commented over the weekend on anti-semitism and in particular how it's been ignored by Universities for far too many years.
The creation of Israel lead to the forced movement of 700,000 people in 1947 (note many Arabs decided to stay) - now there are some 5m Palestinians who claim refugee status. In 1995 the population of Gaza was 600,000 now it is 1.8m. Either Palestinians have been multiplying at a prodigious rate or there is a lot of migration and refugee claims. There would be no attacks on Gaza if they had elected a different government 10 years ago after Israel's unilateral withdrawal (no election since, plenty of executions of political rivals) and the rocket attacks (totally pointless imho) and tunnel building would stop (more shelling over the past few days as Israel has been destroying newly rebuilt tunnels (they cost about $3m each to build and use large amounts of cement which would be better used to rebuild houses). The Arab population of Israel numbers about 1m, its worth noting the Palestinians wish that any Palestinian future state has a zero Jewish population.
None of what is going on in Israel has much of anything to do with the 250,000 Jews living in the UK. Just like what is going on in Israel and Gaza has little to do with the millions of Muslims who live in the UK.
and to encourage his many anti-semitic followers
#Jambyplanet
You think Israel can tell them who to elect under the threat of the gun? At least you accept they are attacking gaza and not defending themselves so we have some progress thereThere would be no attacks on Gaza if they had elected a different government 10 years ago
Baby steps and all that
Chief Rabi again commented over the weekend on anti-semitism and in particular how it's been ignored by Universities for far too many years.
Too funny - he complained about "bashing" of Jews on UK campuses. For your reference, this is what "student bashing" looks like in Gaza:
[img] 
?itok=mkChuQzk[/img]
Livingstone's statement was indeed deliberately provocative and done so with the deliberate intention to provoke controversy and to encourage his many anti-semitic followers
Wow. Are you judging everyone by your own standards?
"clod responding to a debate in one thing offering your advice about what anyone else should do is something rather different, hence my reply. "
I was actually trying to be helpful. Obviously I've failed. 🙁
@clod - ok perhaps I misread your intentions, if so i apologise
Labour's independent inquiry into anti-semitism doesn't look so independent. Shami has joined the Labour party and one of her team has already published his thoughts that accusations of anti-Semitism in the Labour party are baseless ! Oh and they won't be asking Ken Livingstone for evidence. Sleep it under the carpet and kick it into the long grass.
Slightly better news is that at least Labour will publish tomorrow their report into Oxford University. Conveniently long after the May elections
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/16/labour-antisemitism-inquiry-shami-chakrabarti-not-seek-evidence-from-ken-livingstone ]Guardian link[/url]
"Conveniently long after the May elections"
Well, I think we've pretty much established that the whole anti-Semitism thing was brought up just in time to inflict maximum damage to Corbyn and Labour, and yes, it has had some effect. But the unintended side effect was that the whole 'is anti-Israel/Zionism actually anti-Semitism' debate was sparked up again, and many very intelligent commentators added their tuppence, and some not so intelligent ones spouted some opinions, and social media became flooded with 'have you seen what Israel are doing now?!' stuff. And many people became even more polarised. And divisions deepened. And nothing changed for the better.
Meanwhile, the media has pretty much ignored the racist Tory smear campaign against Sadiq Khan, the Housing and Planning Bill, possible electoral fraud by the tories, the junior doctors' battle with Jeremy Hunt, the academies u-turn, and a whole host of other stuff we should all really be concentrating on a lot more than some fringe politician not actually being anti-Semitic.
Have we done the 'Tory MP in Nazi stag do' yet?
[img] 
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http://www.****/news/article-2072639/Tory-MP-Aiden-Burley-Nazi-stag-night-French-ski-resort.html
Labour's independent inquiry [s]into anti-semitism doesn't look so independent[/s] is not the witch hunt I demand
FTFY
The guardian has been doing this campaign longer than you and hate corbyn just as much I bet its not open BTL to allow its readers to comment.
I think we've pretty much established that the whole anti-Semitism thing was brought up just in time to inflict maximum damage to Corbyn and Labour......Meanwhile, the media has pretty much ignored the racist Tory smear campaign against Sadiq Khan, the Housing and Planning Bill, possible electoral fraud by the tories, the junior doctors' battle with Jeremy Hunt, the academies u-turn, and a whole host of other stuff we s
I know, just look at how the bastard tories wheeled out Ken and got him to keep, constantly, mentioning Hitler in every interview, just to take the attention away from themselves.
Just another creeping tentacle in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy
Have we done the 'Tory MP in Nazi stag do' yet?
You mean the one that stood down at the last election.
Have we done the 'Tory MP in Nazi stag do' yet?
Yes and it was all Jeremy Corbyn's fault.
Have we done the Nazi Chancellor yet?
[img] 
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"Just another creeping tentacle in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy"
Really? Do you think that?
I thought it was more about just smearing Corbyn and Labour with anything possible. In this case, Ken handily provided them with an 'anti-Semitism' twig. Which they then thrashed around wildly, causing a few scratches, but I doubt any serious injury.
The media could have course chosen from any number of moderate voices, but then, that wouldn't have made such juicy headlines.
One good thing to have come from this fiasco, is that many people are now a bit more aware of just how low pro-Israel/Zionist will stoop to attempt to justify the actions of the Israeli government and military. So it seems the hasbara campaign has backfired somewhat. Give it a few weeks, Labour will publish their report, make a public show of 'dealing with anti-Semitism', and people will look for more twigs. The only people who have really suffered, is the Labour right. I'd imagine they are desperately trying to think how they can preserve their careers and future 'consultancy' opportunities.
"Have we done the Nazi Chancellor yet?"
Good call.
Have we done 'Ed Balls appears in several articles in the Jewish Chronicle' (any one of which you could have picked) yet?
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/20611/ed-balls-holocaust-education-best-investment
http://www.thejc.com/community/community-life/balls-praises-jcoss-ethos
http://www.thejc.com/community/community-life/balls-backs-primary-age-shoah-education
http://www.thejc.com/community/community-life/44241/ed-balls-talks-glee-and-shadow-cabinet
Interesting just how quiet the media and tories have been over this:
Before we descend into a 'dressing up as a Nazi' top trumps, the point is that if enough weight is thrown behind an allegation, it can can cause a lot of damage, even if untrue. Had the mainstream media hounded Boris Johnson for his remarks about Obama's racial heritage, in the same manner they went after Ken/Corbyn/Labour, then we'd have seen the former mayor under fire and possibly hounded out of office. But it's clear this media chooses it's targets according to the agenda set by those who pull the strings. This is to be expected when media outlets are owned and run by private groups/individuals, but int he case of the bBC, it's simply unacceptable. We need a fairer and more balanced media, as an aid to proper democracy, and we're not getting that. Instead, we're being bombarded with diversionary bollocks to distract us from what is really important (I'm not saying anti-Semitism isn't important, far from it, just that the amount of comment and coverage is grossly disproportionate). I don't want to live in a society where Richard Desmond, Paul Dacre, Rupert Murdoch etc are free to undermine democracy and equality. We need an impartial BBC to act as a foil to this propaganda, and we're being let down.
THe original story would have died if Ken hadn't reignited it - hence the existence of this thread. The problem isn't the media, and certainly not the BBC.
Had the mainstream media hounded Boris Johnson for his remarks about Obama's racial heritage,
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2009/mar/04/obama-irish-brown-special
Fenton!
"The problem isn't the media, and certainly not the BBC."
Wow. Do you believe that?
This man thinks differently:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/may/12/bbc-bias-labour-sir-michael-lyons
it's clear this media chooses it's targets according to the agenda set by those who pull the strings.
there is some truth in this though the usual RW suspects will absolutely deny the obvious bias that only true blue specs prevents one seeing.
It can off course be overstated but at the time of anti semitism we have
The PM making factually untrue claims about a Muslim cleric supporting ISIS - to tarnish Sadiq Khan- under the privledge of the House of Commons
The "dog whistle" campaign against A Muslim that even senior tories criticised
The Tory party being taken to court over both electoral irregularities and their refusal to release the information
A Senior tory suspended for anti semitism
Still none of this gets the coverage of the "deeply embedded" problems in labour
Look who brought this issue back up again
Corby hating Guardian and then Corby Hating Jamby
Junky, I am not interested in a witch hunt. Labour made this worse for themselves by not publishing or indeed even commenting on the first investigation into the Oxford University allegations which where made by the head of the Oxford University Student Labour Society. They kicked that into the long grass and commissioned a second equity, which they then declined to publish commissioning a third enquiry. All of that smells very very dodgy to me.
As for the Conservatives or indeed any other organisation if there is a case to answer let's look into it (JY read @clod's link it's not clear at all what may or may not have been said).
@clod I can say I recall what was published back in 2009 about Ed Balls Education initiatives. I have not seen coverage of the Conservative allegation you mention but I would not the the allegations where made by Labour MP Naz Shah and as the speech where not given in English it seems there is some disagreement about exactly what was said.
Let us see what the Oxford University report says, also lets wait and see whether its the original report or whether it has been re-worked. I'd also be interested to know what justification is given as to why it wasn't published months ago
Wow. Do you believe that?
Yes. Permanent outrage sells papers which is the primary focus of a newspaper. I have some sympathy with Lyons's view but I think that is more a function of a bias of conventional wisdom that elections are won in the centre ground, not bias against him per se, the right have many of the same issues.
I am not interested in a witch hunt.
Its obvious that you will use anything as a method to beat corbyn and the labour party. This Is all this is your hatred of Corbyn.
At least you have not been ageist about him for a while so small blessings and all that.
jambalaya - MemberThey kicked that into the long grass and commissioned a second equity, which they then declined to publish commissioning a third enquiry. All of that smells very very dodgy to me.
I'm curious whether you believe this is true tbh. I suppose it's possible.
The original enquiry was a toothless internal affair run by Labour Students, which was folded into Baroness Royall's investigation. Of course, if the Party hadn't escalated matters and had left it in the hands of the student organisation, you'd be squealing about how they're "not taking it seriously" but when they do raise it to a higher level it's been "kicked into the long grass". TBH I also wonder if you know what that metaphor means.
That second investigation has just completed. I understand it's going to be released in the next few days, though I fully understand your dissatisfaction that they failed to release their findings before they existed. Such strict observance of the linear nature of time is, as you say, dodgy.
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said Jamba. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
The NEC, as one might expect, have refused to publish Baroness Royall's report. Only releasing recommendations, rather than findings.
http://press.labour.org.uk/post/144505485689/baroness-royall-inquiry
WHat another Tory disgruntled with the labour party...I am stunned by this revelation
Her full findings will be revealed as part of the report which will follow the inquiry being led by Shami Chakrabarti.
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/158303/baroness-royall-finds-oxford-university-labour-club-not-institutionally-antisemi
IMagine a tory supporter delivering half truths about the Labour party
.....again I am stunned that it took me 30 seconds of googling and was in the top hit from the Jewish Chronicle.....Jesus you tories are obsessed , desperate and struggle with full disclosure.....oh the irony.
I rather enjoyed watching golden haired Heselinte abusing Goldened haired Boris myself...any views Tory boys? 😆
