Languages aren’t a direct word for word translation of one to the other. They all have their nuances and subtleties that can’t always be conveyed easily by translation.
Yep - discovering this all the time with French, endlessly told I'm writing English phrases in French, which no French person would ever say as they just don't use the same sentence structures.
I'd never realised that after learning all the vocab and grammar, you have to learn all the sentence structures in order to use a language.
Then you have the fact that the past tenses aren't exactly equivalent - then the subjunctive which we don't really have.
It's not just the sentence structure, it's the things people say that are also different.
In Finland, I'd be served in a cafe or shop in English and people would give me something and say 'here you are' which always sounded rather odd. It's the closest translation of the Finnish phrase 'Ole hyvaa' which they always say when someone gives you something. My colleagues would ask what the best translation would be, and I was at a loss. We do speak during these transactions in the UK, but we don't always say the same thing. They had trouble understanding this, they expected there to be a specific phrase.
In French, it would translate to 'voilà' quite easily.
then the subjunctive which we don’t really have.
If only that were true.
Am fear a dh' fheitheas fada gu leoir air an aiseag, ghabh e thairis uaireigin . This is from an old gaelic postcard. It says "He who waits long enough at the pier will get across sometime" It is an old joke about ferries, but that is not all it's also a comment about a people who were conditioned to believe that their needs were "less important" than those of the ferry company, the laird and even the "visitors". I suggest that this is an example of a literal translation missing a great deal of the meaning.
then the subjunctive which we don’t really have.
If only that were true.
Except you're not using a different tense (French has four tenses which are exclusive to the subjunctive).
It’s not just the sentence structure, it’s the things people say that are also different.
That's sort of what I mean.
Take "How are you?" which in French is "Ca va?"
Ignoring the fact the verb isn't the same, in French the subject of the question 'you' doesn't even appear in the phrase - it's an impersonal construct i.e. 'it'. They use it quite often (compared to in English).
Lots of other subtle differences, eg some adjectives can change meaning depending on whether they appear before or after the noun eg "mes propres mains propres" = "my own clean hands"
My great-grandparents were native Welsh speakers, they were farmers from a farming family who were pre-industrial inhabitants of the South Wales Valleys.
I worked with someone who was a native South-East Walean Welsh-speaker (ie not a Welsh-speaking incomer from another part of Wales, or a learner). Apparently there was a distinct accent (a bit like the way Cardiffians speak English apparently) and way of using Welsh. I guess it must be quite rare now, with all the churn of population in the Valleys and Cardiff.
… now I’m thinking we need a foreign language humour thread.
One of my greatest linguistic achievements (to be fair, the bar is set very low) was understanding a joke in a French language Asterix book that wouldn't have made sense in English. Though Mrs Kenny did question my claim to be "fully engaging with Gallic literature".
Oh and as this is (in theory at least) a cycling forum, the 1980 version of one of the spring classics was run in such awful weather it became known as Niege Bastogne Niege.
Although I have never been to my maternal grandma ancestral land, I spoke to someone from that region using the same language and we were very surprised that we could understand each other very well (think the same too ... scary). At other times I met some old folks in the UK who migrated from HK, when I spoke to them in their traditional language they were all very happy.
Language can save your life too. During the emergency of Malaya my father was carrying his wounded senior officer (he was from Malay royal lineage , one of the Sultan's uncle) after their 3 trucks loads were mowed down by the communists ambush. All dead except my father and his officer. While escaping carrying the wounded officer they were stopped / captured by female communists. They were going to be executed but when the communists and their leader were having a conversation as to who should execute them, my father overheard their conversation (Southern Thai language) and started to interrupt them. Their leader was surprised to hear my father accent and started to question my father. Well, long story short they came from the same ancestral village and the leader let them go. They were puzzled that father was fighting for the British and asked him to join them but my father declined and they let them go. Oh ya ... my father torn the stripes off the officer to save his life too. If they knew he was an officer they would have shot him on the spot. (to one of the Northern State Sultan, my father save your uncle's life. If you can recall your uncle walking with a limp or one of his arm is not working properly due to injury from the war, that's because my father save his life)
I guess it must be quite rare now, with all the churn of population in the Valleys and Cardiff.
Yeah, plenty of Welsh speakers in Cardiff but as far as I can tell most of them are from other parts of Wales at some point in their history. Which makes sense, since Cardiff was tiny 150 years ago and is now much much larger due to immigration from Wales, the UK and the rest of the world.
Ignoring the fact the verb isn’t the same, in French the subject of the question ‘you’ doesn’t even appear in the phrase – it’s an impersonal construct i.e. ‘it’. They use it quite often (compared to in English).
I always equate that to 'how's it going?' which is quite common in English.
Except you’re not using a different tense
No I know. It's there as a concept in English, just not the same.
Oh and as this is (in theory at least) a cycling forum, the 1980 version of one of the spring classics was run in such awful weather it became known as Niege Bastogne Niege.
I love that one 🙂
I always equate that to ‘how’s it going?’ which is quite common in English.
They use it all the time eg "Do you like it?" - "ça te plaît?" - the subtlety is the subject and object are inverted in the French version, another impersonal construct.
The upshot is knowing all the nouns and verbs won't actually get you very far in terms of composition - great for comprehension, but only half the story.
What further invasions of Britian after the Normans are you thinking of – the Nazis invasion of the Channel Islands?
Yes, that, but the Glorious Revolution was in my mind, William 3rd landing in Devon? (I think) and having a battle with James 2nd - Battle of Reading, forcing James into exile in France.
Fairy nuff. I've always thought of Dutch involvement as an intervention into internal English Catholic/Protestant/Royal affairs rather than an invasion. As I understand it plenty of English supported William of Orange, unlike invasions from the Romans, Saxons, Danes, etc.
But it's not a subject that I have any significant knowledge of - I don't recall my Catholic provided education ever covering it. Although perhaps I just missed the lessons.
There's actually been way more than I thought A whole Wikipedia page of the times we've been invaded. TBH, I didn't know about half of these.
I like languages. Letting them die is the alternative to keeping them alive so keeping them alive seems more positive. Kids who are brought up to speak two or more languages are brighter. What's not to like?
Thoughts for Footflaps. 😉
How are you? Comment vas-tu ?
How's tricks? - impersonal in English like ça va ?
Mes mains sont propres - Traduction avec un verbe livrée en main propre
Est-ce que tu aime ça ? without the "Est-ce que" you have to listen for intonation to know if it's a genuine question or an expression of surprise that you like that shit. T'aime ça ?!
Ca te plait ? / Ca t'a plu ? I associate with experiences such as when leaving the cinéma or a massage.
As I understand it plenty of English supported William of Orange, unlike invasions from the Romans, Saxons, Danes, etc.
In those cases there was generally some support as well (it was a speciality of the Romans to get some locals on side and then invade to "help" them out. For Saxons and Danes in some cases it was the problem of if you hire mercenaries to fight for you what happens when you dont want to pay them any longer?).
With regards to the glorious revolution its worth noting that in Holland it is generally classed as a successful invasion.
I would go for it sits in the middle with William taking advantage of internal unrest to launch an invasion but compromising with the "rebels" to maximise his chances which in turn led to restrictions on his powers.
you have to listen for intonation to know if it’s a genuine question
I believe Greek is like that with a statment and a question being phrased the same with the difference being in the intonation. I am no expert though so could be wrong and it may just be a casual thing, of course we do that in English as well.
of course we do that in English as well.
We also do the opposite and turn questions into statements, don't we.
And I guess Gaelic is a prime example.
It's a good example in the counter as well as it ends up burying cultural languages is the rest of Scotland that never spoke Gaelic such as Erse and Doric.
It’s not just the sentence structure, it’s the things people say that are also different.
Not just languages. Accents, and codes also.
Getting back to dead languages. At University I got into translating Sumerian tablets* Mostly they were about grain harvests and IOUs and dull shit like that, but occasionally you'd see one that had been used by perhaps a kid practising his writing, some of them are even corrected by teachers, some of them have jokes on the reverse of them, some of them are literally just shopping lists. But the thing that leaps out at you is just folks going about their day, they didn't have in their minds that these would be studied at universities by bored UGs, and that's how languages are to me, on the face of it, they're confusing and a block to communication, but when you get past that, it's mostly just folks talking about their day, or whatever, the shared expressions of everyday life.
*How the dark winter evenings flew by
Here’s a clear example of just how important it is for indigenous people to be allowed to keep their culture and language, especially when there’s no written equivalent. Stories handed down through the generations by Australian Aboriginal tribes have now been proven to show clear evidence of climate change and rising sea levels from 7000 years ago.
Here’s another example of the importance of language, both spoken, as in tracing family and tribal relationships and histories, and when a written language is created specifically to work with a spoken language where none existed before, and avoidance of an introduced foreign language.
https://www.history.com/news/cherokee-sequoyah-written-language
Getting back to dead languages. At University I got into translating Sumerian tablets
Many years ago I worked on a book called ‘The Land Of Pars’, a translation of an original Persian book by a lovely gentleman by the name of Reverend Ralph Norman Sharpe. It was all about the ruins dotted around Persia, with examples of texts in Cuniform, Arabic and English. Rev. Sharpe would bring in these bits of card which were actually made up of individual characters in the different scripts that he cut out by hand and stuck onto card, which I had to make a photographic copy of, called a PMT, (photo-mechanical transfer), carefully paint out all the dark shadows between the individual characters, then paste them into the pages of text as I went. I spent months on it, the dear old boy wasn’t in any great rush! Fascinating to see someone who could understand the inscriptions as he was translating the book. I’ve still got a copy around here somewhere.
Just done a search, there’s a copy on Amazon for £130-odd.
Land of Pars: Historical Monuments and the Archaeological Sites of the Province of Fars https://amzn.eu/d/8YRYfSU
