Plenty of people understand Latin, no-one has it as a first language any more. Does that matter? Should it?
So many languages (including English) are derived from Latin that understanding it is extremely useful for historians, linguists and as an educational tool in all sorts of scientific, religious and historical contexts.
One is by a younger generation not interested in learning it or speaking it
Why would they not be interested?
I don't know, probably because they can't see the point, maybe they think they only need to know English?
I was never interested in learning French or Italian at school as at the time I couldn't see the point of it and thought it was useless in learning it.
"And the same is true of English, you just don’t notice precisely because it’s your native language. But you feel its effects."
This depends who you are talking to. I've lived in Germany for 20 years and travel around Europe for work. Often the only person whose 'English' is not understood is my Yorkshire accent.
Everybody else has earned a generic, low vocab version.
No real accuracy or nuance. My German is the same but with a bit of Schwabisch thrown in.
It's not about intelligibility, it's about the .ETA information you add without realising it. English is notable for having loads of different words for the same thing. The word you choose convey a lot of meaning and also say a lot about you and how you want to be perceived. This may be lost on non native speakers. My Finnish colleagues found this interesting.thry were all fluent speakers but they were unaware of this whole other layer of communication. And the way the native Swedish speakers spoke English was quite different to the native Finnish speakers.
inkster
Free Member
I’ve got a nephew who grew up in a bilingual household and he didn’t start talking till he was about 18 months old .Once he started talking though he wouldn’t shut up
That's actually quite normal for monolingual kids, unlikely to be related to bilingualism.
English is notable for having loads of different words for the same thing.
All languages have synonyms, but it's rare for synonyms to be perfect (i.e. redundant). For example, "seat" and "chair" are partly synonymous, but not perfectly. "Seat" also describes a sofa, a settee, a bench, a couch, etc., but those are distinctly different to a chair. If you talk to Japanese people, you will often hear that Japanese is unique because it has subtle shades of nuance, ignoring that there is an English word to describe what they believe is a feature unique to Japanese, and also that the English word is derived from Latin. Things like nuance and synonyms are universal features of languages.
This is what I was meaning, my colleagues have a much better understanding of what each other intend to say because often, their contextual understanding of a word is very similar (although the Cz, Sk, Pol & Hu team can differ to the E, Por, Fr groups) and they fully miss the intensity/subtelty of message from me.
All languages have synonyms
Yes but I think English has an unusually large number.
Yes but I think English has an unusually large number.
I doubt it.
<quote>People used to think that kids having two languages would confuse them and delay their academic development. This was a key driver behind 20th century efforts to eradicate Welsh (but not 16th century efforts). However we now know, perhaps through looking at the rest of the world where it’s common and mundane, that it doesn’t. In fact, it makes you better at languages in general (of course) and helps your brain in other ways too.</quote>
1st language grammar takes a hit. Exam scores go down. But yes, and dependent on the languages, other subjects can get higher grades. Not sure if it's the connections in the brain that are formed, or the benefits from cultural learning, and the instructor's personality (With language comes culture. With good instructors comes learning)
"That’s actually quite normal for monolingual kids, unlikely to be related to bilingualism"
Well that was a binary response...
Exam scores go down.
Which exams?
1st language.
I teach English as an L2 in markets where exam scores are everything to involution/backwash stressed learners....
Can you teach me enough English to understand that sentence? 😁
Yes but I think English has an unusually large number.
English is an exceptionally rich language. It has far more words than, for example, French. This is because despite living on an island Brits historically have been crap at keeping out foreign invaders - every new invader has added new words to the language.
I was brought up in a tri-lingual household, my parents spoke a mixture of Spanish and French between themselves and I always spoke French to my Father and, in later childhood, always English to my mother.
At the age of six I was learning, from scratch, my third language - English. I am not sure those sort of upheavals helped my development in anyway - at school I was trying to learn how to read words which I didn't necessarily understand the meaning of.
Now I can only speak English, my Spanish and French has pretty much disappeared.
As I said on a previous thread a while back imo it reflects the stupidity of humans that we can't all communicate between each other using the same language. I have no problem people having a hobby and speaking a language which only a select few are able to speak, but imo it makes no sense that all humans don't all to speak the same one language. The world would be a much better place if they did imo.
As I said on a previous thread a while back imo it reflects the stupidity of humans that we can’t all communicate between each other using the same language.
Perfectly possible to speak a common language for practical communication and your own language for cultural reasons. It's how much of the world does it, especially in India.
I wanted to practice my terrible GCSE French to try and improve but most people I interacted with just dropped straight into near-fluent English.
Ah so you think we should have a common language but are disappointed that you can't try out your French? I like the sounds different languages make much as I like different English dialects. It would be a shame to lose either.
1st language grammar takes a hit. Exam scores go down. But yes, and dependent on the languages, other subjects can get higher grades. Not sure if it’s the connections in the brain that are formed, or the benefits from cultural learning, and the instructor’s personality (With language comes culture. With good instructors comes learning)
There are a lot of very complex issues mixed up in this. The biggest predictor of exam scores is parents' income. Bilingual kids are most likely to be immigrants' kids, so it's not really a case of language interference, just that immigrant kids tend to come from poorer families.
Wealthy families have historically usually been bilingual or multilingual, upper class children were expected to speak French or other foreign languages and nannies or tutors were hired to teach these. It's utter nonsense that multilingualism hurts educational achievement. It's like asserting that learning to swim makes you a worse cyclist.
English is an exceptionally rich language.
No, it's not. All languages are rich, English is no richer than other languages, whatever "richer" means.
All languages have synonyms
Yes but I think English has an unusually large number.
hmm, really? Try Finnish:
The spruce is on fire. = Kuusi palaa.
The spruce retums. = Kuusi palaa.
The number six is on fire. = Kuusi palaa.
The number six returns. = Kuusi palaa.
Six of them are on fire. = Kuusi palaa.
Six of them return. = Kuusi palaa.
Your moon is on fire. = Kuusi palaa.
Your moon returns. = Kuusi palaa.
Six pieces. = Kuusi palaa.
But I can't remember the all important phrase for "60 quid for four beers? Are you taking the pi$$????"
We're lazy here in the UK at getting to speak forrin languages. However, in our defence, when abroad a lot of foreigners find it easier to speak to us in english, rather than our mushed up version of their language we may be attempting.
After asking for a 'Single ticket to Vlissingen please" in my 'best' dutch, the answer in perfect english was "That'll be 22 Euros please"
I gave up.
No, it’s not. All languages are rich, English is no richer than other languages, whatever “richer” means.
You are arguing that English isn't richer than others languages despite not knowing what I meant by richer?
The very next sentence explained it : "It has far more words than, for example, French." It is a simple arithmetical fact that English has far more words than French.
As I said on a previous thread a while back imo it reflects the stupidity of humans that we can’t all communicate between each other using the same language.
Perfectly possible to speak a common language for practical communication and your own language for cultural reasons. It’s how much of the world does it, especially in India.
Yes of course it "perfectly possible" but it doesn't happen - that is precisely my point. Not all humans can all communicate between each other using the same language.
Good thread. I reckon that whenever a language dies out we lose a whole culture and a perspective on our (sometimes shared) history. Learning a language conversely makes that language more secure and sometimes makes the history and culture more secure. It makes us richer. This is a good read. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Spoken_Here.html?id=t_wmcRmCxccC&redir_esc=y
One of the frustrating things about Scottish Gaelic is that the word meaning "look for something"- Lorg is the same as the word for "found" -Lorg. Also there is no Scottish Gaelic word meaning to own. I have no idea whether that is significant or not but it is certainly interesting, ( The word used is aig meaning at plus whatever personal pronoun is appropriate so agam agad, againn, agaibh etc
Do you mean context rich or high context language?
English is a precise language with most words only having 1 meaning. If a word doesn't exist we'll create one.
Spanish is very different and they use the same word for many different contexts so as a tourist it's very confusing.
So many languages (including English) are derived from Latin t
English is placed in the Germanic not romance language tree although it does have Latin influence via French and also directly (mostly for professional terminology).
I am referring to rich in the number of words. As I said, each new invader to the British Isles added new words. The old words often carried on existing only the meanings were changed very slightly to create a subtle differences, often so subtle that it is barely noticeable.
I don't know if that is the reason why English also appears to be so illogical and without clearly defined rules unlike, for example, Spanish which in comparison is much more logical.
On a different subject, I think Italian is by far the most beautiful language in the world, followed a distance second by French.
I reckon the world would be a happier and more beautiful place if everyone spoke Italian.
Sometimes, as an English only speaker I feel that half my brain is missing or has been left dormant from birth. Language is deffo more than communication.
+1
I started learning French almost two years ago - as in seriously trying to see if I can become 'fluent'. Absolutely fascinating process as it's a whole new experience watching my brain adapt to things it's never had to do before (I don't count O level French 35 years ago).
One of the weird things was I started listening to French radio every day, maybe 6+ months ago. At first I couldn't really work out what was going on at all, but quite quickly my brain learnt to hear individual words (which is quite hard as French runs it all together). I still had no idea what the words meant, but I could pretty much write down exactly what they were saying and then look it all up. The process of learning all the vocab will take years and probably never really ends.
But… should it require propping up? Do I need to think ey up and sithee, and start up the Lanky Twang Preservation Society, owd lad? If people want to speak a language or dialect should it not be self-sustaining?
Yes prop them up for sure. I don't speak Welsh but my kids go to a Welsh language school. It's blown my mind how beautiful the Welsh Language and Welsh Language culture is.
More variety in art and culture is surely a good thing.
More variety in art and culture is surely a good thing.
Absolutely but unfortunately minority languages can be weaponised and politicised as has happened in Wales. I've seen the re-organisation of English and Welsh speaking schools in Cardiff to the detriment of the English speaking school. Many natives who dont speak the minority language find lots of barriers to employment and don't get me started on the complexity of Welsh roads signs, something that needs to be clear and easily grasped is double the size required and needlessly complicated to grasp as you drive past.
I do think languages like this should be preserved, we do that with many areas of our historic culture, but not to the detriment of people in their daily lives.
I didn't used to think it made sense. But then someone said to me that language is just the medium, what's important isn't preserving the medium itself but the art that it conveys. Not everything can be translated, and keeping a language alive and its art accessible needs a body of speakers. ("alive" doesn't just mean "in use", it means fully understood with all of its inherent metaphor and allusion and inexplicable rules of use)
It's a bit of a forced example but they suggested, what if we develop immersive 3d film and gaming- would we then declare 2d screens obsolete and let every bit of art made for them be forgotten? Seal it in a can and say it's preserved? Thta struck home for me, because I'd been thinking the same about some of the amazing art in games that gets put beyond use as soon as a platform is dead. Like not looking at the fighting temeraire because it doesn't move.
Given the continuing efforts to keep Latin and Ancient Greek alive as languages for toffs I think there is an imperative to support the understanding, study, teaching, and learning of languages.
The subjugation of language is a control employed by many conquering cultures.
Sure, American English and Mandarin might be the Lingua Franca of the internet but the support for uncommon languages is vital for future generations.
Ah so you think we should have a common language but are disappointed that you can’t try out your French?
Are they mutually exclusive?
I suppose part of it was just to see if I could; I'd learned (at a very basic level) a skill years ago, I relished the opportunity to see if I could use it. I'd have felt the same way about trigonometry. The other part was that it seemed rude not to at least try, rather than being the stereotypical Brit talking to foreigners like they're either deaf or retarded.
It is a simple arithmetical fact that English has far more words than French.
So is that richer, or is it simply more convoluted?
Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)? Do we even agree on what that means? And gods help us if it comes served with a bread roll.
Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)?
Ask a poet or a songwriter.
Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)?
Ask a poet or a songwriter.
Like Oasis?
They've got a roll with it.
On the subject of poetry I read an article ages ago that I can't find now, explaining that Dylan Thomas seemed so different in Anglophone poetry circles because he was using rythms and styles from Welsh poetry and language. If we lose languages we lose the things that have been created in those languages.
Language is about thought as much as it is about communication. When I look at Arabic or Japanese writing I am totally aware that it is expressing things beyond the capabilities of Latin text.
Oh - I like that way of describing it. Despite trying to learnt Scots Gaelic my wife will also often baulk at trying to translate from SG to English as it can be too difiicult or impossible to convey the same meaning.
For what it’s worth, sometimes languages live in weird ways.
There are certain forms of Glaswegian English that are actually Gaelic grammar in English words.
The use of the infinitive for example. Subversive
I love subversion.
Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)?
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn't a chicken stew.
No, not really. Why would a language die? How does that happen?
Sometimes because the native speakers themselves die out, and there aren’t enough younger people who are interested enough to maintain it. If there’s a will to resurrect a language it can be done, although it means fighting against the cultural imperialism that sought to eradicate it, as happened in Wales and Cornwall. My late partner was born over a pub in the King’s Road, Chelsea, but she learned Welsh to O-Level standard after her folks bought a hotel in Barmouth, where Welsh was part of the curriculum. Due to moving away, and spending most of the rest of her life in England and southern Eiré, she sadly lost much of her fluency, because she just never had another fluent speaker to talk to.
Bless her, she tried really hard to teach me, but I have enough of a problem remembering words in English, let alone a completely different language!
One only has to look at just how destructive that sort of cultural vandalism can be in America and Canada, where the governments of both countries made it illegal for First Nations children to speak and learn their tribal languages, children were forcibly removed from their homes and families and put into schools, where the regimes were brutal. Many hundreds, possibly thousands of children died and were buried without markers on their graves, in what was effectively a form of ethnic segregation and cleansing. There are something like 350 different tribal communities with about as many languages, if not more, and it’s only due to the efforts of a few tribal elders in each nation clandestinely keeping the stories and traditions alive as best they can and whose efforts are now bearing fruit as young tribal members are learning the languages, stories and crafts in order to strengthen the bonds among their communities.
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn’t a chicken stew.
Looks like a stew to me.
I dunno, it was just the first thing I thought of, for no good reason. It's not really important, point was that we have multiple words for the same thing (and demonstrably they're still not always unambiguous).
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn’t a chicken stew.
I agree ^^^
Recently someone was taking the micky with the description for a certain sea food in Borneo related to ... Squid, Cuttlefish and Octopus which in Mandarin can also be further distinguished into eight different categories/types. But in Borneo they are all called "sotong", one single description for all. LOL! IMO this is very bad because the language is no longer able describe accurately. I know our very old language can describe them accurately but most people no longer know them.
French was the official language of England for about 300 years, from 1066 till 1362.
Us Brits are living proof that we can overcome oppression and tyranny. Surely the Celts can do the same if they wanted and grouped together.
I dunno, it was just the first thing I thought of, for no good reason. It’s not really important, point was that we have multiple words for the same thing
Problem in this case is they are similar things so whilst the extremes would clearly be one or the other you have some variants which could be classed as either.
