[Closed] Justice done for once.

I am not saying robbery is not serious nor that the effects are not serious it is [ only been robbed as student and had F all to steal and given the area it was expected] but it does not warrant murder in the calm reality of day
I also accept my view is the minority one on this.

Regarding the issues of quick access to the shotgun and his wife handing it to him. I've seen gun cabinets in all sorts of places - including bedrooms or bedroom cupboards. It's perfectly plausible to retrieve a correctly stored shotgun quickly. His wife handing it to him - suppose he hands her the keys and tells her to get it while he listens at the bedroom door. Since he's there 'supervising' (for want of a better word), this is no worse, from a legal point if view, than someone having a go with another's shotgun while the another is present to supervise. If the wife could access the shotgun when the husband wasn't home that is a different matter and would be an issue. Finally, there are no legal requirement for storage of shotgun cartridges. There's best practice, obviously, but nothing in legislation. Of course I am not saying this is how it happened on this occasion, merely suggesting why the actions of the householders prior to the shooting may not have been unlawful.

t's not just the break in that affects you, it's the way it leaves you feeling afterwards. In my case, it took about a year before I felt comfortable and safe in my own home.

+many.

After I was done over a second time, it was several years before I could walk into the house without having to check through the glass door first to see if everything looked ok. Even now, over ten years on, I'm still twitchy about being away from home for extended periods.

The first burglar was found dead of an overdose a while afterwards. Would it be wrong of me to hope that the proceeds from the stuff I've worked years for helped him on his way that little bit sooner?

Frig it, I'm packin' for bear!

[i]Would it be wrong of me to hope that the proceeds from the stuff I've worked years for helped him on his way that little bit sooner?[/i]
Not in the least IMO.

Mind you, they do help pay my bills. & holidays. & bikes. & other luxuries.
(when they get caught & locked up that is) 😉

Yes because someone is dead and someone loved them.
Drugs ruin lives and so does hatred

you are ok to not be tearful but to wish them dead - they hurt you more than you think dude

With a legally owned shotgun,
aren't you required to store ammo
locked away separate from the
gun?

health and safety gone mad

political correctness gone mad

DAILY MAIL BINGO

This is going mad gone mad

Thinking laterally:

You need a valid reason to own a shotgun in order to be granted a license.

The CPS said that the use of the shotgun was self defense.

Is self defense now going to be considered a valid reason for being granted a shotgun license?

As an aside, firearm ammunition can be kept in the same locked cabinet as the firearms. I thought it had to be seperate, or as you say one of those cabinets with a little locked cupboard inside it, but that's not actually a legal requirement. (I only found this out when I did a FAC renewal and told the bloke it had to be locked away seperately. He asked me to double check, and lo and behold, he was right! Still best practice to keep them seperately though).

The CPS said that the use of the shotgun was self defense.

Is self defense now going to be considered a valid reason for being granted a shotgun license?

We can only hope that this soon will be the case.
Wondering if it will be acceptable to use on nasty neighbours at the moment.

Justice is done?
I think some of the important parts in this story are being overlooked.
One of the perpertrators was only able to commit this crime as he had been released early from a 6 year sentence for wounding with intent.How early,a third or a half off on parole or maybe more,so three years inside? Be interesting to know.If he'd done the full time then maybe this thread wouldn't be here.I can just about stomach early release for property crimes but for wounding with intent? Doesn't bear thinking about what a violent criminal could have done to the burglary victim and his wife if they hadn't used a gun.And how long will he do now? Does he finish the remainder of his last sentence and then start this 4 year one? Will he automatically get a third off the four years?
I don't want to live in a country where convicted ,violent criminals can be out committing more crime and terrorising decent law abiding citizens when they should be behind bars.
Justice moves in mysterious ways

What dos this actually mean? You consider revenge/being angry/distressed legitimate reasons for trying to kill someone?

...that the law failed to protect him from multiple burglaries so he resorted to his primal instinct.

On another point, the burglars 'intended' to burgle Tony Martin but did Tony Martin 'intend' to kill the burglars...

Amen to that seriously!!

Self defence probably wasn't the original reason for having it.

TheGreatApe, as a man who has first hand experience of such things; do you think that his shotgun liscence has been revoked? I assume so but stranger things have happened at sea..

I don't know. I would have thought the actions of the householder and his wife would have been covered in considerable detail during their police interviews - was it a day and a half in custody? As they haven't been charged, I wonder if

a) they did nothing wrong, as far as having the shotgun available to shoot is concerned
b) they did do something they shouldn't have, but there was insufficient evidence to charge them
c) they were in the wrong but the CPS decided it wasn't in the public interest too pursue it

So if a), arguably no grounds for revocation if he's done nothing wrong.
If b), grounds for revocation, but in the absence of prosecution challengable by the holder if he chose to.
If c), I would have thought there was a high chance of it being revoked.

It's hard to predict without the full story.

i wonder if theres a forum somewear that asks , what buck shot for low life tossers, bloke defending his home and protecting his mrs just so happends he has a gun and uses it, if you dont want to get hurt dont break into peoples homes.

what buck shot for low life tossers

If you used buckshot at close range you'd blow a hole the size of a fist in the front of your target and an exit wound you could put your head in.

FWIW a buckshot AKA 00buck cartridge contains 9 10mm balls the same as a small game (SG) or swan shot guage (SSG) shell does.

I dont think they were there to do him any harm

I really don't feel the owners should of had that dilemma thrust upon them, whether the owners reaction was 'right' or 'wrong' it appears that, on this occasion, it was 'right' in the eyes of the law at least.

For that reason justice really has been served.

Predictable responses, who'd have thought this story would attract the "string 'em up" types?

TuckerUK - Member
One has always had the right to defend oneself proactively (i.e. you don't have to wait to be attacked first), and in your own home, you may use whatever is to hand to do so. If that just happens to be your LEGALLY HELD firearm or shotgun, then so be it.

What's your authority for that? I'm pretty sure it's not law in Scotland at keast.

The homeowner could have done much before shooting the guys:

say "this shotgun is loaded and I will use it"
shoot at the ceiling (would have had the crims crapping it).

I don't believe a burglar's life is worth some possessions and/or even the upset/stress burglaries of this sort (which I understand are pretty rare) cause. And as for the proposition that the homeowner doesn't have to think about right or wrong when his house is being broken into, if you take that to it's logical conclusion, where does it end?

That's burgling talk right there cynical.
It,s pretty obvious where it ends, it ends with lower taxes due toess crims in prison but in the ground instead!

The more I think about it the more I think most on this thread need anger therapy.

cynic-al
What would you do if someone broke into your home at night?

1) you don't know its only a burglar after some possessions at the time do you?
2) you are running on adrenalin and not always thinking logically
3)if you have a gun in the house and they get it what next?
4)Some criminals are violent and sadistic and get their kicks from doing things regular folk can't even imagine
5) although two were shot four were arrested-I wouldn't be wasting bullets shooting up my own home I can tell you

Poor guys they both have ginger beards

The more I think about it the more I think most on this thread need anger therapy.

I thought forums were the therapy 🙂

Lets not forget Tony Martin was done for shooting someone in the back as they were running away

No he wasn't!

I've no idea where some on here get their info from.

Tony Martin was 'done' because he sourced an illegal firearm which he was not licenced to acquire specifically to shoot an intruder. No other reason. Had he of LEGALLY held the weapon there would have been no case to answer.

nick1962 - Member
cynic-al
What would you do if someone broke into your home at night?

1) you don't know its only a burglar after some possessions at the time do you?
2) you are running on adrenalin and not always thinking logically
3)if you have a gun in the house and they get it what next?
4)Some criminals are violent and sadistic and get their kicks from doing things regular folk can't even imagine
5) although two were shot four were arrested-I wouldn't be wasting bullets shooting up my own home I can tell you

1. What are the chances of anything else? You watch too much Midsomer murders 😉
2. So you should get your gun out when not really in control of yourself? Having the gun should make you calm.
3. Well you'll have it locked, and the ammo in another locked place? Also, the chances they'll want anything other than your stereo are miniscule. STEP AWAY FROM MIDSOMER MURDERS
4. See 1. and 3 above - show me the stats otherwise!
5. I'd shoot at my floor, I laid it badly, and need a new one 😉

cynic-al - Member

The more I think about it the more I think most on this thread need anger therapy.

Anger? That's not anger that's applying common sense.

Nahhh ... there should not be anger involved when shooting burglar(s) as you will miss the target. Keep calm and pull the trigger. Anger has no placed in shooting accuracy.

🙄

Keep calm and pull the trigger

Yeah but you get spooked by "ghosts" flushing your toilet and slamming the door.

It's generally accepted in law that for members of the public, if you had to 'shoot a warning shot', or 'aim for the knees' (always said by people that have never shot and don't realise the impossibility of that), then you weren't in that much danger to warrant branding a weapon let alone discharging it, and have therefore committed a serious offence.

The only time that shooting is warranted is when you are in fear of your life, and then the [u]only[/u] option is to shoot to completely neutralise your attacker. People that need to know are taught that this is only ever reliably achieved by shooting constantly until the attacker ceases to move or you run out of ammo.

Tucker, that's quite different to what you said earlier. It doesn't add up to me either.

Is the threshold of the shooter's belief of the thread objectively or subjectively reasonable?

And why is it difficult to aim for knees? The IRA were pretty good at it 😉

ernie_lynch - Member

Yeah but you get spooked by "ghosts" flushing your toilet and slamming the door.

1. It is a waste of bullet if you try to shoot them. They are more then dead.

2. It is very rude to have a dump uninvited then slamming the door without due respect. Luckily there was no turd smell.

3. Not spooked but rather surprised i.e. I would rather they let me see them ... 🙄

p/s: ... there is no time to think because you shoot at the biggest target available i.e. the body, and no pussy footing about shooting legs etc.

cynic-al - Member

And why is it difficult to aim for knees? The IRA were pretty good at it

Ya, perhaps they are seasoned sharp shooters? Or perhaps they managed to hold down the target?

al

Not Midsommer murders but living in da ghetto of MCR.Violent burglaries and rapes do occur. I could give you gruesome details of " breakins" that involved torture-it happens in the real world no need for stats-this guy was a convicted violent thug.Crims boil kettles to throw boiling water at you if they get disturbed and carry and use screwdrivers,knives etc etc.Guns are prized assets and many break ins are to steal guns.Crims don't mind using a bit of persuasion to get you to open the cabinet.FFS they torture some homeowners for the keys to their expensive cars.Yes you are not logical when high on adrenalin but the thought of your legally held weapon getting into the hands of a criminal (who maybe high on class A)would focus your thinking.
My neighbour and I had a gun pulled on us by a burglar we confronted who was robbing and terrorising two frail pensioners at gunpoint in their own home in the small hours.Bad shit happens and John Nettles isn't always around to help.

I didnt' way it doesn't happen nick, I asked for stats - it's extremely rare. Folk believe it's common becuase shit newspapers like to print the stories to get their readers frothing, and it gets out of proportion.

TBF you and I are at extreme ends of experience - I've never even been burgled and you've had a piece pointed at you.

Which cyncial should not be posting objective crap against the cottage owner who shot them.
It is subjective what the home owner did but only in court when decided upon action.

It is however acceptable if and only if you have accesa and feel that fear to then aim at burgulars.
Or even a a lump of oak long enough to wrap round the crims head imo, never tried but would be interesting to see.

Hopefully they will not loosen the rope on gun ownership as there's reportedly too many in circulation already to keep tabs on.

Judges need to step up which is exactly what happened in this particular case in the future still.

Hope him/her are ok from the shock as I'm sure it would of been a tough couple of days whilst being interviewed.

Bad shit happens and John Nettles isn't always around to help.

Sentence of the day!

who legally should not even know where it is stored or where the keys are kept.

I got it from here
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
Feel free to argue with them on the law which we both know is suitably vague- I have no idea which is the correct interpretation
.

Shotgun storage and safe keeping in the home.

The precise requirements for storage of shotguns are not actually specified in law. The legislation merely says that they "must be stored securely at all times so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by unauthorized persons". In practice, a steel cabinet constructed and certified to comply with BS 7558 and Rawlbolted to a solid wall is the norm. The vast majority of commercially available gun and rifle cabinets meet the necessary standards. If your premises have shared access, for example if you live in a block of flats, the requirements may be more stringent. [b]In all cases the requirement to prevent access to the shotgun by "unauthorised persons", means anyone who doesn't personally hold a SGC. This means that even members of your family must not have keys to the cabinet or even know where you keep them.[/b]

His wife passed him the loaded gun which would seem to be a violation under either interpretation as i assume she is unauthorised.

cynic al
It's extremely rare statistically speaking for the population as a whole but that counts for nothing when you are a victim as this couple were.What were they supposed to do once they became victims? Cross their fingers and hope the intruders had read the BCS and would toddle off with just the video.
The frightening thing about this case is the crims. thought there would be 70k in cash and a cannabis farm. If the couple hadn't did what they did, they could have faced a Kafkaesque night of torture and worse as the crims. demanded money which they didn't have.

JY, Firstly I think you have misinterpreted the 'even know where you keep them' as applying to the guns - that is clearly nonsense as anyone's spouse or grown up children are likely to know where the gun cabinet is. Read it again - it applies to 'know where you keep [the keys]'.

Secondly, what makes you think that his wife did not hold a SGC? The press reports refer to it as the "couple's legally held shotgun". Perfectly possible that they both hold SGCs if they both have reason to use it without the other around.

The CPS clearly said they thought it had been reasonable self defence, not "we don't believe it is in the public interest" or "there is insufficient evidence" both of which would have been legitiamite get outs for them without saying it was OK. Unlike people on this forum they will have seen all the prosecution evidence, and had alternatives (e.g. firearm storage offences etc) at their disposal so I think you can presume that having weighed up the facts the response was not disproportionate. I'm surprised/concerned a legally held firearm was easier to get to, load and discharge in a house with a history of breakins than a 999 call, or a loud audible warning first - but I haven't been party to all the evidence.

JY, Firstly I think you have misinterpreted the 'even know where you keep them' as applying to the guns