[Closed] Just started Running - Bad Knees

Could very well be your running shoes. Its def worth spending some cash on these and getting them fitted properly. Depending on your running style you'll need a different type of shoe. Assuming you havn't go to a running shop that can film you running and then sell you the right type of shoe, it may cost a bit more but you only have one set of legs!

Yup, as above. Go to a good running shop, get a decent gait analysis and some recommendations of shoes to buy. Safest way!

< Sits back and waits for the crowd of people advocating the B-word... >

I'd do that but I'm worried they'd all gather round and laugh at me running,

I had a bad experience with having shoes 'correctly' fitted and much prefer my internet-bought shoes.

But more important than blowing £100+ on fancy shoes for a few sub 2 mile runs, simply ensure you warm up/stretch properly and don't push to hard until your body starts to adapt to the new exercise.

M_F - may I ask where?

I started running last year to supplement my cycling and as you say you get good benefit but the potential injuries are massive from road running, I do all mine off road where i bike or round the local football pitch and have found that all my aches went away , i even came 2nd in my first off road duathlon.. good luck

I wouldn't bother with running if you're only doing 2 miles, it's not worth it. No point in hurting yourself. you'd be better off doing longer rides.

Unless you're doing intervals or sprints.

Pyro - Up & Running in Harrogate

Started supplementing the limited riding I do with some low distance running <2miles a few weeks back. Finding it to be great excercise by knackering me out better than a 2 hour ride for 20-30mins work. Only trouble is I'm starting to get aching on the inside of both knees. Been trying to "run it off" thinking it'll toughen up in due course but could I be doing some lasting damage ? It's not agony but I can defo' feel it... On a separate note, just changed my biking shoes recently too, could it be a slight change in cleat position on my SPD's ??

So you've changed two things at once...Started running and your biking shoes. A recipe for disaster.

2 miles is a lot, from nothing. I'd be doing something like 100 metres run then 100 metres brisk walk and building up.

As for the shoe change. I always phase shoes in over a couple of weeks.

So I guess I'm saying too much change too soon.

SB

Doc here. I see more problems with running than any other sport, in fact than all others put together, andboth short and long term issues...

People who run off road and who do lots of other stuff seem to do better,

Finding it to be great excercise by knackering me out better than a 2 hour ride for 20-30mins work.

Either your two hour ride isn't hard enough or your running is too hard given you've just started.

I agree with the previous poster who said 2 miles is a lot of running if you've not run before. Also you didn't say how many times a week you run.

Forget fancy running shoes just throttle right back on the running and start slower and shorter and build up at no more than 10% per week.

Better still get some shorter higher intensity bike training sessions organised. You can get a decent training session in 45 mins especially in winter on a turbo.

Any benefit to those knee support bandages? I don't run much, preferring to walk fast (and arrive at work not sweaty!). However, when I do run I get knee pain. However, when training in the boxing gym I get the same knee pain following short sprints, box jumps, lunges etc. Any suggestions?

(Sorry for the hijack!)

why do something that hurts your knees? find a diffrent way of keeping fit.

2 miles is a big distance? really? Wow. 😯

Emsz people have got to start somewhere, would you suggest novice runners start with a half marathon a few times a week? 🙂

2 miles is a big distance? really? Wow.

Yes really if you've not run before.

Your shoes will play a big part in it. Google pronation and have a look at that and see how you think your feet are. Search what your trainers are for. As said above though it could just be getting used to new routines. I can run 6m but did a 10m one on Sunday and my knees were killing probably because I'm not used to that distance.

Don't listen to all the bollocks about buying expensive shoes. It's recently been proved that shoes have nothing to do with it and you might as well run barefoot, as nature intended. Running shoe users are amongst the biggest victims of manufactured fashion ever. Remember the South African woman runner who competed barefoot? Shoe manufacturers didn't like her very much.

You are over-stressing your joints by taking up a new form of exercise. They are responding by aching. Take it easy, cut back on the running to give the knees time to build up strength and increase the running gently as your body adapts. Don't forget that you are already fit from cycling but cycling is a low-stress exercise, which only uses certain muscles in a very specific way with a very limited action.

Doc here. I see more problems with running than any other sport, in fact than all others put together, andboth short and long term issues...

Could it be that running is the most accessible of all methods likely to be undertaken by those trying to get fit 🙄
With regard to "long term issues" can you name any non pre existing conditions that running brings on?
I am no medic but I have ran competitively on and off for the last 25+ years and seen it produce more positive benefits than negative.

Remember the South African woman runner who competed barefoot? Shoe manufacturers didn't like her very much

You are thinking of Zola Budd. Can you name any other successful barefoot runners? Until you can I would suggest you are talking bollocks, can you quote your references? (oh I will help you out with one more, Abibe Bikila)

emsz, everyone's got to start somewhere, not all of us are born athletes. And 2 miles is better than 0 miles.

Same as OP really, started jogging and got lots of pain in inner knees. As M-F says, warming up [b][u]and[/b][/u] down is very important as is stretching. In fact try and build stretching into your daily routine. Persevere and listen to your body. Been going a few weeks now and it definitely gets better. A knee support helped but not sure if that's just a placebo effect.

Good luck and stick at it.

Ifrider, go on to runnersforum, its a great site and everybody is extremely friendly. As oposed to a mountain biking forum where some people run, you get a great section of runners from people just starting out like yourself to ultramarathon runners and all in between.

Ref gait analysis, im 35 and have been involved in a lot of sports over the years. I always believed it was a load of old rubbish and designed to get a lot of cash out of niave runners. That was until about a year ago when i started to get a recurring injury in my left calf muscle. After a lot of rest then running again it happened again so i saw a physio.

Long story short is for some reason my left calf was building a lot of tension due to my running style and i was advised to get analysed.

So far so good. 3 months on and running regularly with no problems. (fingers crossed)

But to be honest at your stage i doubt very much you need to do this.

But honestly try runnersforum. Its a cracking friendly forum. And good luck as running is fun once your body adapts 😀

Don't listen to all the bollocks about buying expensive shoes. It's recently been proved that shoes have nothing to do with it and you might as well run barefoot, as nature intended. Running shoe users are amongst the biggest victims of manufactured fashion ever. Remember the South African woman runner who competed barefoot? Shoe manufacturers didn't like her very much.

You are over-stressing your joints by taking up a new form of exercise. They are responding by aching. Take it easy, cut back on the running to give the knees time to build up strength and increase the running gently as your body adapts. Don't forget that you are already fit from cycling but cycling is a low-stress exercise, which only uses certain muscles in a very specific way with a very limited action.

100% with you there

Ignore Emsz.

As has been said above 2 miles from not ever running is a lot, and changing spd shoes at the same time will not help your knees.

I would stop running and ease off on the biking until the knees feel better, and then see if your knees are ok just cycling, could well be wrong cleat position etc on the new shoes.

If your knees are fine, reintroduce the running again, but slowly. It will take your legs a little time to adapt to running so dont do too much too soon.

IMO you dont need all this fancy marketing analysing your running to see what shoe fits you rubbish. Many club atheltes I know just run in a shoe they find comfortable and have never visited a running shop for a 'fitting'.

"A knee support helped but not sure if that's just a placebo effect."

Be careful of wearing knee supports, unless a doc or physio etc has told you to. All they do is weaken the muscles because they support the area, which is the opposite point of doing exercise and can lead to more injury later.

meehaja - As above.

Stoats - Whats your specialty? I have asked Mrs FD the same thing as she is an Orthopaedic Surgeon. She said that she doesnt see any more injuries from runners than any other sport. The only thing she does find though is that runners dont listen to her advise and will go out running asap after ops etc...

Can you name any other successful barefoot runners?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara ]The Tarahumara Peoples....[/url]
🙂

And don't go putting supports on your knees until you know what any potential problem may be and you are sure you are using the right support to help ease the pain - otherwise you may just end up with a whole new set of problems.

When I started running I started with 1 mile runs and just increased the length every time I stopped feeling the effects (muscle pains etc). Not very scientific but I managed a 1hr 45min Great North Run training like that.

What about following the couch to 5k programme? It is design for people whose legs aren't used to running.

emsz - 2 miles = c.1000 impacts on each foot, ankle, knee, leg. That's a lot if you're not used to it.

Can you name any other successful barefoot runners?

[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2011/10/31/eddie-izzard-planning-1-100-mile-barefoot-run-through-africa-115875-23527686/ ]eddie izzard[/url]

i love the way that article linked above has a picture of some bare feet.

in case you weren't familiar with the concept.

Some bare feet earlier...

[img] [/img]

I bought the shoes and kit and tried going back to running a couple of years ago, and had the same problem. I didn't want to damage my knees so i just bought a spinning bike at home instead, which is useful on dark wet winter evenings. Im heavily built and in late forties and like skiing so I'm quite wary of hurting the knees...

I know too many ex-runners who went on to discover cycling. So I now walk instead. At a fast pace of 4mph. I can walk a half-marathon in three hours. I'd like to walk a full marathon inside six hours. The OP looks as though he's started to fast. I'd be mixing running and walking. And I'd go to a running shop.

+1 for stretching before AND after a run.
Good quality running shoes needn't cost the earth, my favourite running shoes are Brooks Ghost 2, I've had 3 pairs and they're better than any of the Asics and NB ones I've had before. I bought 2 pairs of Ghost 2 last time as they've gone out of production. £29 a pair!
I had problems with my calfs and shins during marathon training, probably because I'm on the heavier side for long distance running at 93kg, and a simple routine of strengthening and stretching my calf muscles helped enormously.
Walk/run routines helps too. You don't need to run fully for the 2 miles, (which coincidentally is the very distance I started with about 3.5 years ago). Don't give it up unless you really have to, especially as it sounds like your quite enjoying it. 😀

Running is a very healthy and natural thing to do, physically and mentally. Injuries only really happen if it's not done properly or carefully. Our species have always ran and done so very well, possibly to the point of our success over similar species.

Just take is easy and slow if you are not used to it. Listen to advice and then use your common sense of what works best for you.
Warm up and warm down and stretch gently if you feel tight.

Take your time and enjoy the run, views and you time out.

I did Couch-to-5K at the start of the year. Did manage to complete the programme and run 5k but had to give up cos of knee pain. Haven't run since and still have knee pain 6 months on 🙁

+ 1 for stoatsbrother. Shorten your milage and build up slowly. Do it on soft grass (golf course?) if you can. Please get this seen to of its the inside of your knees? not being rude but could be your weight affecting greater pressure on the inside of your knees just as much as over pronation (PLEASE DONT GOOGLE PERONATION AND TAKE ADVICE ON SHOES ON THAT ALONE)I see almost as much damage done to soft tissue of feet/ankles, knees, hips, with googled advice as i do with injuries caused by too much running too soon.

See a specialist Podiatrist or Physio oif the pain persists,.. take it slow.. Good luck

There ha been some recent research on the benefits or otherwise of stretching be going running:

Stretching neither prevented or induced injury when compared to not stretching before running.

Recreational and competitive running are two of the most popular athletic activities in the world. Great controversy exists as to whether runners should stretch before or after running or even stretch at all. The long established doctrine of stretching before running has been refuted by several authors, but no controlled study has supported their opinions. Stretch studies in connection with ballistic sports like weight lifting, gymnastics and wrestling suggest that a pre-participation stretch routine does not prevent injury in those sports. Those studies have been extrapolated to running and a popular notion has evolved that stretching before running is detrimental to both performance and health. Knowing whether this practice is helpful, harmful or indifferent would significantly contribute to the training habits of a great many athletes.

The authors conducted a prospective, randomized, two-arm, unmasked, comparative study of a pre-run stretch vs. no stretch in 2,729 volunteer runners. Volunteers were over the age of 13 and ran at least 10 miles per week. The study committed volunteers to three months of stretching or not stretching before running and collected blinded information via a secure website. Three stretches were described and demonstrated for the quadriceps, hamstrings, and calf muscle groups. The stretch time was three to five minutes immediately preceding running. Runners kept all other aspects of their routines the same for the three-month period. All results were self reported including compliance information. An injury was defined as a condition that prevented running for at least one week. All injuries were rigorously categorized.

A total of 1,398 (51%) out of 2,729 participants sufficiently complied with the randomized stretching assignments and completed the three-month study. This per-protocol cohort included 600 (43%) subjects randomized to the stretch group and 798 (57%) subjects randomized to the no stretch group. The raw injury rates were 16% in both groups. A total of 115 out of 220 injuries (52%) were diagnosed by a healthcare professional. Knee injuries accounted for 41/220 (19%), foot/ankle injuries 56/220 (25%), hip injuries 6/220 (3%), back injuries 10/220 (5%) and all other injuries including stress fractures, muscle tears of all types and groin pulls 105/220 (48%) of total injuries. There was a statistically significant difference in injury rate for runners who normally stretched and were randomized to the no stretch group: 40% increase in injuries (p=.05).

Over a three-month period there was no statistically significant difference in injury risk between the pre-run stretching and non-stretching groups. Stretching neither prevented or induced injury when compared to not stretching before running. Risk factors for injury during the three-month study were: BMI (the heavier the runner, the higher the risk of injury); age (increasing age, increasing injury risk); average miles per week (higher mileage, higher injury rate); history of chronic injury or injury within four months of initiating the study. Subjects who switched their normal pre-run routines were more likely to become injured than those randomized to the group adhering to their normal routine. The group most at risk were the runners who normally stretch and suddenly stopped stretching.

http://www3.aaos.org/education/anmeet/anmt2011/podium/podium.cfm?Pevent=648

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0%2C7120%2Cs6-241-287--7001-0%2C00.html

Running, like other sports relies on technique to avoid injuries. A lot more technique than riding a bike, as any old fool can bash away at the pedals. 😉

As others have said, take it slow and make sure you are relaxed when running, don't strike heavily on your heel, try to use the front of your foot more for impacting the ground. Imagine running on tip toes - not exactly like that, but it makes sense when you try it.

I find it's better to go out running without stretching beforehand, just ease into the run and after half a mile/mile or so start to do some stretches. Your body must be warm when stretching. I used to make the mistake of stretching my calfs a lot before a run and it caused me loads of bother. Me dad used to coach runners and it was the best bit of advice I had.

Oh, and a warm down is a must, do some gentle stretches and slow jogging/walk, never run to the front door and jump straight in the shower. 😉 I always walk the last 500 yards home after stretches and it benefits me greatly the day after. I reckon people watching me in the street think I've not even been running. 😆

I'm not oracle, but these things work for me, and may be worth a try for you.

This is what you want OP...

stop running and ease off on the biking until the knees feel better

+1, don't mess around with your knees. If they are hurting, then let them heal, rather than do more damage. Build up, as others have said, as your bike fitness means that you're aerobically fit and can run faster and further than your knees are ready for.

CaptJon - Member
What about following the couch to 5k programme? It is design for people whose legs aren't used to running.

That's what I'm doing, on to week 8 now, and it's been fine. In some of those 'barefoot' shoes too, which haven't caused me any injury problems at all, and I'm the wrong side of 18 stone with bust ankles.

(That said, when I used to run in my younger days in heavily cushioned running shoes as advised by the running shop, I didn't get any injuries wearing them either).

I just have a 5 minute walk and when nobody's looking a bit of a skip to warm up, and start slowly until my ankles and so on feel nice and loose. Then speed up and slow down as necessary to keep going really.

thegreatape - Member

That's what I'm doing, on to week 8 now, and it's been fine. In some of those 'barefoot' shoes too, which haven't caused me any injury problems at all, and I'm the wrong side of 18 stone with bust ankles.

How have you been finding it? I'm considering following it, but my knees are awful having suffered ski and snowboard accidents which messed them up for ages.

2 miles! bloody hell, that's loads, probably about 20mins.

if you do want to run; walk away from your house for 10mins, run home slowly, walk if it hurts AT ALL.

no hills allowed, up OR down.

do that twice a week, for a month.

(if you don't want to run where you live, drive somewhere nice, you'll enjoy it more)

[b]FunkyDunc[/b]

GP - so we get to see them first, and usually they avoid the orthopods. They get sent to Sports physios or have exercise modification, although one of my marathon running colleagues is currently waiting for a hip replacement... and I'd say we refer a few runners with non-resolving Achilles Tendon issues and non-resolving CMP/anterior knee problems.

I'd guess the ones we refer [i]most[/i] on to Mrs FD's mob would be rather different knee injuries (meniscal and ligament) relating to sports involving rapid changes of direction, Football, Tennis, Skiing, Squash back in the day. Also I see few people doing PE/Sports Science degrees who have their own problems - which is odd.

You could always try Ghosting or Speed Ghosting, as a gentle sport

CaptJon - I've enjoyed it to be honest. I used the podcasts on the NHS website, so haven't bothered working out distances or anything. It starts off with 60s running 90s walking x 8, and builds up to 30mins running. At the start it seems too easy, but I stuck to what it said to avoid overdoing it. I have quite bad back pain most days, and very stiff ankles from having torn them several times, so I have to go slow at the start until they've loosened up, but after that no pain at all. My back pain has been going on for years, so is not connected to running. In fact, it's only really during running and for the rest of that day that there isn't any.

I used to run but also suffer from bad knees as a result of many years footballing for 2 teams took there toll. The advice of my physio is NOT to run if you suffer from bad knees due to impact of running. I was told to take up biking (which I did) and try other non impact ways to keep fit such as cross trainer, spinning, swimming etc.

Can you name any other successful barefoot runners?

The Tarahumara Peoples....

When you say "successful" how do you qualify that exactly? If you want to point to successful running tribes we could discuss the Kalenjin tribe from the rift valley who have won more medals in world and Olympic distance running championships than any other however although they almost all begin running barefoot they all go on to choose to be shod given the opportunity, as did Zola Budd actually (she only raced on the track and occasionally XC barefoot the rest of the time she wore training shoes)
But thats not very interesting is it and we wouldnt want this inconvenient fact to get in the way of a bit of barefoot evangelizing!

My advice would be (as others have said) allow your body to adapt gradually and wear a comfortable pair of shoes.

Choose to be shod given the opportunity or choose to be shod given the sponsorship? I wonder if that comes into it at all?

Cheers, thegreatape, i'll check out those podcasts.

Choose to be shod given the opportunity or choose to be shod given the sponsorship? I wonder if that comes into it at all?

The former given the ones I have met. In fact all of the runners I have met choose to train and race in shoes as oppose to their barefeet. Sponsored or not.

Ok thanks.