[Closed] jumping_flea please help our 13.5k electricity connection dilemma

goat-poo digester + gas engine + generator = free carbon neutral electric 🙂

A workmate wanted to be connected to the mains, which ran past the field he wanted the supply in, and it was ~ £9k, so yours isn't unreasonblle in comparison if you need a long run. Not sure he found any way to get it cheaper either...

Thanks, that may be a cheaper option. I will start feeding them plenty of cabbage straight away and get them working!

have you got a stream on your land? Micro hydro could be done for that sort of sum IIRC. Wind generator with diesel backup?

Thanks Dave.

Its 120 metres of cable which costs about a grand and we are doing the rest of the work associated with the cable length. Still think it's a lot unless I am majorly under estimating how long it would take these guys to do the work.

Spinning classes in a spare barn?

Thanks TandemJeremy

No stream i'm affraid and low lying so very little wind.
Back to the goat poo idea I think!

price sounds reasonable to me, and Im currently pricing up a £260 million grid connection 😀

Thanks bigyinn,

Now thats an idea, saw that on tv, only by the time the power is generated there would be little time for any thing else, except perhaps to take a glance at the divorse papers!

Illegally tap into the mains and raise the 14k by growing weed, then go legit with the money. Glad to help.

Spinning classes in a spare barn?

for the goats, of course 🙂 It's a well known fact that a goat will run several miles on one carrot.

Thanks iain1775,

Think your £260 million grid connection may be over doing it for what I need for my goats but you sound like you may be able to answer my original question.

Hi,
There's so many options I hadn't thought of...
May be able to tell Western power where to stick their gold plated cable!

I know this isn't very helpful, but why did you choose somewhere without 'leccy for your goat enterprise, and then set it all up without checking the figures out first?

Did you do a business plan?

Is it too late to move?

I'll buy 13k worth of halloumi cheese then were all winners

Does wildgoatie dream of electric goats ? (Sequel to Bladerunner in which countless electricty supply workers meet an untimely death)

Thanks user-removed,

Well my business plan of sorts (like most peoples plans) was made up of figures mainly quessed, only I didn't realise Western Power would guess double my figure, bad luck and planning on my part.

Oh, too late to move i'm afraid!

Hi simonfbarnes.

Well, the way I feel at the mo I could write a brilliant blood curdling script, perhaps make my fortune on the back of it and never have to worry about electricity connections.

do you have names for all your goats? I filmed a goat farm once for a tv documentary and all 109 goats had names! madness 😀 but awesome

"all 109 goats had names"

the trick is getting them to tell you what their name is in the first place.

do you have fainting goats?

😀 I think some of their names were to embarrassing for even the goats to cough up 😛

fainting goats! YE BUDDY

Some names, SPARKY is definitly not my favourite at this time!

Well, the way I feel at the mo I could write a brilliant blood curdling script, perhaps make my fortune on the back of it and never have to worry about electricity connections.

how about a closing scene where the entire board of the electric company is smeared with goatnip and chased by the herd with cattleprods attached to their horns ? [b]Bzzzzzzzzztt!![/b]

Yep, they will be fainting when I tell them how hard they have to work to pay for the electric.

simonfbarnes, you have a better imagination even than me. I will get the cattle prods ready for filming.

[b]wildgoatie[/b], I once asked the electricty company for an estimate to move the meter a metre vertically so it could be in the same cupbaord as the gas meter (instead of at the back of the cellar). They wanted over £600 so you're getting off lightly 🙂 Hence my vindictive ire!

Big Diesel Generator?

My friend who spends 5 months of the year in a field uses one of these:
[img] [/img]
But bigger. These things are near silent, unless you open one of the doors!

Trouble with a generator, turn on one light bulb and your drinking fuel.
Not very environmentaly friendly!

part of the cost could be if they have to switch off the existing line to do the work, if that line serves alot of customers, or vital infrastructure (water treatment plant for example) and an alternative supply isnt there then they may have to bring in generators etc to maintain supply whist they do the work, the planning of that and leafleting of affected properties etc will all be included in their quote
It could also be that a new pole is needed as well as a transformer etc
Its not always as simple as just connecting two bits of wire and putting a plug on the end (but Im sure you understand that already)
Without further breakdown of the WPD price it would be difficult to comment, but £13.5k does not sound too unreasonable (and I would be suprised if they are letting you completely lay and backfill the cable yourselves?)

Have a looky:

[url= http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,17509&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL ]Biomass Energy[/url]

I've been looking into biomass etc with colleagues - for anaerobic digestion you do need quite a lot of mass for it to work - don't know about goats as we were looking at human waste.

Hi Wildgoatie

I have to deal with utility companies on a daily basis making applications for new supplies, etc. WPD are, without a doubt, the best utility company we deal with. The person who has completed your quote is an engineer who has sat down and most likely spent a great deal of time to find the most economical way of connecting you to the grid. As a utility company, they have a duty to provide the customer with the most economical way of connecting to the grid. From the additions you're making, it sounds like they may be upgrading part of their network, and the engineering time in that alone will be quite substantial.

Anyway, generally your quote sounds reasonable, although without a breakdown it's hard to say. It also sounds like they're installing a pole below HV overhead lines so an element of risk may have been priced into the works as it sounds quite dangerous.

As a side note (and this doesn't help you I understand), WPD prepare their quotes free of charge so it might have been better to contact them at the beginning of the job, before you started onsite.

You could look into a combined heat and power solution - go to the calor website for more details.

Hi milkherd,
No they're not upgrading part of their network or charging for leafleting etc. They are saying they cannot put the transformer on a T off pole (a pole that takes cables at 90 degrees to the main cables) and have priced to put a new pole 2m away. I have seen a transformer on a T off pole in exactly the same way as we need, with less ground clearance. I dont understand it.

i'm no engineer but...

1 - goats on treadmill
2 - use carrots to start goats running, generating electrickery from treadmill
3 - divert some said electrickery to a small'ish cattle prod
4 - use cattle prod to keep goat moving

well exercised goats into the bargain

use cattle prod to keep goat moving

unkind 🙁

to prevent the unkindness, what about using a goat prod 🙂

how much electricity do you acually need? If you acn get your consumption low enough (LED lamps etc) then a generator might be feasable along with biomass or other renewables.

Hi TandemJeremy,

Our pasteuriser is 9kw pluss some other bits and pieces, so quite a lot and we need some reliability of supply as we need to store our product in a fridge.

Can't you get gas-powered fridges?

Can you put the fridge/chilling rooms underground so they're kept cooler naturally?

Can you move the goats into underground caves?

goatnip

Used to live in a place off-grid.
Fortunately it came with an old generator, was reaching capacity with a house full of modern appliances and the circuit to kick it in on-demand was ropey, so meant a lot of walking to the genny shed to start and stop. We were running it on red diesel, but due to the nature of the design, it would quite easily have run on anything pretty much, veg oil, kerosene, maybe even goat piss. Hard to judge how much fuel went into the genny as was using the same source for tractors and stuff.
Gas fridges from experience are a pain, warm and only really available in small sizes now for caravans.

New silent runs are pretty good. Friend has just got a PTO driven 3-phase that is getting put on the yard wreck to power re-saw kit.

Was given a 6 figure sum for a place we managed on Dartmoor, by persuading a neighbour to allow us to spur off them we could halve it, but still 6 figures after bribe to neighbours.

Shame there is opportunity for hydro, just looking into it for one of our valleys and looks good. I know British gas are trialling some PV stuff, but ot sure if grid connection is a pre-requisite. Are there any green projects in the area? One here is the driver (funder) behind our hydro plans.

Ah

No they're not upgrading part of their network or charging for leafleting etc. They are saying they cannot put the transformer on a T off pole (a pole that takes cables at 90 degrees to the main cables) and have priced to put a new pole 2m away. I have seen a transformer on a T off pole in exactly the same way as we need, with less ground clearance. I dont understand it.

And you need 9kw of power just for the pasturising 😯

To be fair you are not using some low power items there are you so you do need proper supplies it is not as if you can tap off you local supply and run a TT supply across

Try having a chat with a local industrial instalation contractor ( not a one man band) and see what they can come up with. tbh at times folk can give oppinions here and the technical knowledge can be a bit er limited to say the least.

just a thought I get raw goats milk from my local farm so would not selling raw goats milk save you alot of hassle then you could use smaller supplies and get them locally from othere buildings and a cheaper instalation at the end of the day.

SD ( JIB Approved Electrician)

Where are you in Zooooomerset btw I live near Wellington

goatnip
lol!

I was wondering how long it would be before someone spotted that, but then, as I understand it, with goats that could be "anything marginally edible" :o)

My dad had the exact same problem with his small farm in 70s, they want as much back then to connect. He used a massive generator which ran off of a tractor PTO shaft, cheaper than stand alone generator clearly. This ran, an auger, small milking parlor, lights and any other tools he was using. Worth considering. He used this method for over 25 years as far as I'm aware, probably longer.

Hello

Sorry I haven't seen this thread earlier.
I understand your problems, but don't work for WPD (I'm Central Networks) but here are a few tips you could use when speaking to the planner/designer of your connection -

Firstly, is the connection near and existing TX/Power line or will it require a totally new build? this could influence things

All work bar the final connection can be done by anyone you like as long as it is inspected and approved for connection by WPD. This was brought in under the competition in connection regs. Doing the ground work yourself could save you money..

If you are getting WPD to do all the works make sure that the Maximum demand you have given them takes into account diversity factors (Known as ADMD - Maximum demand after diversity)
Just because your largest appliance uses 10KW, your usage, after diversity will be more like 3.5kW as long as the appliance is not run all the time (ie a house with a gas supply will be given a MDAD of 2kW even with a 9kX shower) - this will reduce the cost by getting a small section cable or Tx installed

The second option, but only available if there is existing infrastructure in the area, is to get WPD to do any upgrade work as asset improvement and hope that they just charge you just the basic additional work and not the entire cost.

Have a look at this tread - http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-from-eon-in-new-electricty-connections-highway-robbery

Another chap on here called IGM works for CE electric as a new connection manager. He has loads of other useful advice as seen in the thread above

Tom

Jumping_flea can you help, I see this is your line of work, please, please could you or any one tell me how long it takes these guys to fit a high voltage transformer to a pole and how long would it take to fit a new pole under high voltage cables and connect the wires? The labour comes to nearly half the cost, which seems very high to us.

Sorry - I misread some of the quote, I see you are doing some of the work yourself.

Central Networks normally gives time-scales of 12 weeks from payment to complete the work. However time onsite to install and wire a TX is 1 day to prep and 1 day to connect - cable to pole etc and LV wiring (Including local shutdown and giving residents notice of the interruption)

Any customer that will be affected by the outage needs a minimum of 5 working days notice before being switched off to connect your supply

what jumpin_flea says although there are companies that will negotiate with the upplier/installer on our behalf. They usually take a fee (typically 30%) of anything they save you.

Here is one example i found from google;
http://www.powermatters.com/

not used them myself but I have usd similar ones (some successful some not) and it might be worth exploring
Ask the utility for a full breakdown of the costs

Hi jumping_flea and Gooner,

Thanks so much for getting back to me.

I will try and answer your questions:

Firstly, is the connection near and existing TX/Power line or will it require a totally new build? this could influence things

Not sure what the term TX/power line is but the high power line with three cables crosses the corner of our field. The only pole on our ground is a T off pole where two cables go off the pole at 90 degrees to a local farm. WPD say they want to put another pole 2m to 3m away from that under the three cables to put the transformer on, this is very costly and to me doesn,t seem necessary. would Central Networks allow a 50 kva or kw 3 phase transformer on a T off pole and if so what are the clearances off the floor etc.

All work bar the final connection can be done by anyone you like as long as it is inspected and approved for connection by WPD. This was brought in under the competition in connection regs. Doing the ground work yourself could save you money..

We are doing a lot of the ground works already. Can we use another company besides WPD to say, put this pole in and fit the transformer and connect all except the final connection onto the high voltage cables.

The second option, but only available if there is existing infrastructure in the area, is to get WPD to do any upgrade work as asset improvement and hope that they just charge you just the basic additional work and not the entire cost.

Not quite sure what you mean by the above as power lines do cross our land but I didn't say that originally.

Central Networks normally gives time-scales of 12 weeks from payment to complete the work. However time onsite to install and wire a TX is 1 day to prep and 1 day to connect - cable to pole etc and LV wiring (Including local shutdown and giving residents notice of the interruption)

So would it take 4 man days. 2 men for 2 days or are the teams bigger than 2 men.

Do you think I can get them down on price, besides the pole, transformer and earthing there is 130m of cable to the meter point.

I hope this isn't going to be the actual cost as I don't know how we could afford it.
Any help would be very much appreciated.

wildgoatie - first some questions

What will the supply be feeding? Have you worked out your final load requirement in KVa? Is it going to be 3phase or single phase?

You mention it is 130m to your meter point, this will create a volt drop that will prop require you to install a 95 wavcon cable.

Depending on the construction of the t off pole, it would be possible to hang a tx on this pole - however without looking at it, clearances could be an issue, also a transformer creates extra loading on a pole a require a stout pole if the construction is not already suitable - this could be blagged to get WPD to pay for the upgrade and get them to treat it as betterment on their network - talk to the planner about this....

TBH, I have (along time ago) quoted similar prices for a new freestanding TX pole with transformer, cable terminations and the cost of the cable etc.

Are you digging the trench and WPD installing the cable? One option could be to install a meter cabinet close to the proposed transformer pole and install a private cable to your property. You would cut down the WPD cable costs, but you would then have to purchase a cable of sufficent cross section area to ensure you get a decent amount of volts at your property. (If a single ph connection is required this could be done by bunching a 3phase cable)

Hopefully some of this make sense or may help

Tom

EDIT

Not sure what the term TX/power line

TX = Transformer
Power line - HV or LV overhead line. You mention the line crossing your field has 3 wires - this is a 3phase 11kV line with a single phase t off to the farm.

Just to clear up the labour required -

- 1, 2 man team to install and wire a freestanding pole prior to the shutdown day
- 1 waggon to transport material to site
- JCB to excavate ground and install earthing for new TX
- Depending on how many customer are affected by the outage - 1 man to deliver outage cards informing customer they will be off supply while the work is done
- 1 jointing team for a couple of hours to terminate the cable if 95 wavecon, if 35mm CNE then the linesmen can do this
- 1 linesman team (including an authorised engineer) to switch off the HV and connect up the supply

##Additional costs could be incurred if WPD send a gang out to pull the LV cable into the trench you have dug##