[Closed] Jordanian pilot - sensible debate thread

So what can we, the West, or Jordan, or anyone else do?
Executing prisoners won't help, they will be happy to become martyrs and will be seen as such by other members of IS.
A military response isn't likely to help, unless as you say they flatten the entire area but there would be far, far too much collateral damage from doing that.
Cutting their finances hasn't worked so far and won;t as long as they have people willing to help them, and they are rich enough that it is a long term strategy at best.
Doing nothing will just leave them to get stronger and stronger.
Hmmm.

Jordan is entitled to do as Jordan wishes. Their culture so they can do as they wish to those that waant to harm them.

Jordan have been willing to exchange hostage(s) only to be made a fool by the captors.

IMO the captors have no intention whatsoever to negotiate but rather use it as a propaganda to divide the people. They have been toying with Jordan to see their reaction. Yes, the people gave in to the captors demand so started to negotiate only for the captors to betray their own words.

The question is how often can one make a fool out of others?

andrewh - Member
Executing prisoners won't help, they will be happy to become martyrs and will be seen as such by other members of IS.

The question is how do you prevent them to be martyrs ?
😯

I don't claim to know the metrics and facts behind IS, but they do seem to be better organised, better funded...and far more brutal than other similar organisations over the last few decades.

I guess leaving them to grow stronger, will eventually have serious repercussions for the west, when IS inevitably start carrying out more direct terrorist acts in western countries.

Sensible debate would involve something along the lines of understanding that if you cut the head off a dragon 6 will appear in it's place!

Not a solution just more a concern that it's all going to get much much worse out there. western(by that I mean rich ****s)influence and designs in the muslim world over the last 100 years or so has lead to a ****ing shit storm that ain't ever going to be solved by more war.

I often wonder if the media all over refused to cover these barbaric acts of violence if they'd still occur. They're obviously designed to intimidate and generate as much publicity as possible and it working. Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

whatnobeer - Member
Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

I disagree because unless we see them as they are we are just being delusional.

Let's get it over and done with.

I guess one of the challenges is that IS don't want a dialogue, don't want to negotiate and don't want to adopt a moderate stance.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

That only leaves one way forward,....more war.

I wonder if I'm still going to Jordan for two weeks work on the 17th Feb.....

And making a spectacle of not executing the IS prisoners would certainly deny them martyr status which some believe is a path to heaven that they desire....

I struggle to see a way forward without something cataclysmic happening in the region.

whatnobeer - Member
I often wonder if the media all over refused to cover these barbaric acts of violence if they'd still occur. They're obviously designed to intimidate and generate as much publicity as possible and it working. Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

I have wondered this, yet as was mentioned in the other post these terrible acts still happen whether covered by media or not...

Given their desire is to get us to watch the videos, be sacred , react and then discuss them why are we doing this ?

Not seen any video of theirs as not getting involved in helping them with their MO.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

skydragon - Member
I guess one of the challenges is that IS don't want a dialogue, don't want to negotiate and don't want to adopt a moderate stance.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

That only leaves one way forward,....more war.

More war in the short term is inevitable, but there is nothing surer than talking will be done with IS long term.

Discuss

Aside from being my favourite phrase to use in an OP, ironically to 'discuss' is the very 'power' folk give IS.

If they were not reported, discussed or given an identity by the media, they would be nothing. Zip. Nadda.

Edit: As hinted above. Still, we'll feed on it because that's what is reported and what we watch. Without wishing to get all Jivehoney, but everyone cancel your sky subscription and don't watch news 24 and then see what happens..

Liveleak have been refusing to show any IS released media for some time now, and quite right too IMO. Giving them a platform to show their acts of brutality is exactly what they want and it markets their ideology.

They Jordanians have no choice now. They have to kill those prisoners otherwise they'll be a laughing stock (sad as this may be). Personally I'd skip the Muslim burial too but I'm a vindictive git.

As for the ME; easily solved. Get an alternative to oil (or an alternative source) and leave it the **** alone. Let them do, and live however they want. pretty much the same approach as taken in Africa really.

If they were not reported, discussed or given an identity by the media, they would be nothing. Zip. Nadda.

The question is how do you prevent them to be martyrs ?

Do you not get a woman or women to execute them, they can't pass to paradise then and that prevents them from being martyrs, or so I have heard.

I think there is a seemingly a fine line between objective reporting on world events and becoming a tool for propaganda.

rickmeister - Member

And making a spectacle of not executing the IS prisoners would certainly deny them martyr status which some believe is a path to heaven that they desire....

No. They will still be martyr.

The question is how do you break the believe in martyrdom or how do you ensure one does not become a martyr in death?

votchy - Member

Do you not get a woman or women to execute them, they can't pass to paradise then and that prevents them from being martyrs, or so I have heard.

I don't know but I bet the answer is in their holy book. Just right in front of us ...

It's the new cold war. Instead of a nuclear arms race it might be an extended war of/on terror.

It can only end badly unless the real reasons are addressed- intolerence, ignorance, etc...

Unfortunately, any discussion on this topic is tainted by people talking about 'religion'- The irony of which is perhaps that the primary root of humanity's ignorance and intolerance is founded in religion.

Or is this simply a guilty Western pseudo-christian apologist slant on the whole situation?

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

Not a daft question at all.

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

I'm not suggesting that 'the west' is perfect and all, but the ethnic cleansing etc that IS have carried out, cannot just be ignored.

Of course it's a shame that the west seems to pick and mix who it helps and when and on a lesser scale we sometimes need to get our own house in order, but I believe the basic point rings true.

They're master propagandists. Goebbels would have to take his hat off to this lot. And it works. They rule through fear. Why do you think the Iraqi army all ran off? Do you blame them? Would you hang around? See what happened if they got hold of you.

It's only making the news when they do it to foreign nationals. It's open season on the civilian population of Syria and Iraq. Apparently the Islamic punishment for homosexuality is being thrown off tall buildings. IS are vague about exactly where in the Koran it says this, but that doesn't matter because they are The Law

stop giving them an audience would be a start.
Remember when we wouldn't even allow the voice of any of Sinn Féin representatives to be broadcast? How things have changed.
Fear is a useful tool that suits the current agenda.

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

Are there any truly "civilised" societies in the western world? Are people in the west safe? Does everone enjoy a decent quality of life. Perhaps if "we" kept to ensuring that everyone in the west was safe and had a decent quality of life then those in other parts of the world might respect what we do and join us as it's better. The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised.

[url= http://counterjihadreport.com/2014/08/22/documentary-meeting-isil-presstv-goes-deep-inside-the-terrorist-group/ ]Meeting ISIL (PressTV goes deep inside the terrorist group)[/url]

If you have a spare two hours(!), ^ this documentary ^ reveals quite a lot about the group that is generally not reported.

Do people hold the option that there is a viable solution to this, and indeed other similar issues?

skydragon - Member

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having differing points of view from the cultural norm. Unfortunately, it's when those ideals are imposed on people who do not share them that the problems arise. IS are smashing their way through the ME backed and supported by people who just seem to want to see the world burn. At some point, unless checked they will grow and grow and grow. IS operates in a completely assymetrical manner, hence why the world seems to be reeling. The only thing that they do seem to understand is war. And until the world can figure out some other solution, that appears to be the only answer.

Words fail me at the execution of Moaz al-Kasasbeh. I just hope his end was swift.

They Jordanians have no choice now. They have to kill those prisoners otherwise they'll be a laughing stock (sad as this may be).

They do have the choice. Prisoners pose no risk so what purpose does execution serve?

EDIT: 'unless checked' not 'unchecked'.

sas78 - Member
Unfortunately, any discussion on this topic is tainted by people talking about 'religion'- The irony of which is perhaps that the primary root of humanity's ignorance and intolerance is founded in religion.

You are going in circle here or several thousand years too late.

What is your solution?

Alpha1653 - Member

At some point, unless unchecked they will grow and grow and grow. IS operates in a completely assymetrical manner, hence why the world seems to be reeling. The only thing that they do seem to understand is war. And until the world can figure out some other solution, that appears to be the only answer.

That's the problem ... grow and grow ...

And yet in some African countries the public do a similar thing to accused rapists.
I forget what it's called (yes it had a name) but they beat the offender, place a tyre over their head and arms and then set fire to them.
And that's without a trial and just as barbaric.

keng38 - Member

And yet in some African countries the public do a similar thing to accused rapists.
I forget what it's called (yes it had a name) but they beat the offender, place a tyre over their head and arms and then set fire to them.
And that's without a trial and just as barbaric.

That is their way of dealing with their own and they are not imposing on other countries ...

Words fail me at the execution of Moaz al-Kasasbeh. I just hope his end was swift.

It wasn't.

the pre-meditated and calculated nature of itt makes it even more repulsive.

Are there any truly "civilised" societies in the western world? Are people in the west safe? Does everone enjoy a decent quality of life. Perhaps if "we" kept to ensuring that everyone in the west was safe and had a decent quality of life then those in other parts of the world might respect what we do and join us as it's better. The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised.

It's a lot more civilized than much of the rest of the world, mostly the Middle East and Africa. You're suffering from a severe bout of whataboutery and postmodernism.

Anything but swift. Shocking video.

The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised

Which will be why tens of millions of westerners are desperately trying to flee the uncivilised barbaric society they live in then? Oh hang on, wait a minute,,,,,,

We have some fairly recent historical parallels that can be useful, the indo china and Vietnam wars of the 50/60 and 70s proved it is possible to turn a gurrilea insurgency into as army that looks and functions like a western army - the Vietnamese achieved this and when you look at the footage of ISIS in the field they seem to have a lot of heavy kit and are capable of engaging "proper" army's , so we in the west with no political will and have no appetite to engage/stop/destroy this "nation state" in the near future - they will get bigger and stronger, the beheadings/burning are not medieval pointless acts nor are they simply looking for media coverage they are designed to find the breaking point and that knowledge enables them to push boundaries and borders - look how much Hitler did before anyone snapped. There is serious I.e multi billion dollar support for these people - we forget in the west that money does not change religious views in much of the Middle East I.e rich Islamists don't suddenly turn "western" as they have a few quid.

History tells us not to under estimate these people yet we continue to do so? Oh and by the way there is only one soloution and no western govt is ever going to go and do it as the casualties and atrocities required to remove these organisations are wholly unacceptable. So in analysis convert or be dammed? Discuss.....

andrewh

So what can we, the West, or Jordan, or anyone else do?

What needs to be done? Educate the public how this group has come to prominence, admit shortcomings/blame in that respect. Arrest, try and convict as many people as possible who were involved in the highly illegal invasion of Iraq which killed untold hundreds of thousands of their citizens and destabilized the region allowing IS to flourish.

Withdraw all support for Israel and publicly denounce their wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Support moderate Islamic nations to combat IS themselves. Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European societies.

Will any of this happen? Will it f***. We have far too much tied up the region.

Focussing back on the IS video and media propaganda, what do they hope to achieve with this?

- put the fear into any opponents...absolutely. Would you sign up as a local soldier to fight against them.

- attract local recruits...yes, want to be on the winning side, rather than die a slow and painful death.

But the side affect is that they increase agression from other countries and attract more military action against them.

Any other goals I'm missing?

Newsnight, Jordian politician "You cannot be civilised with uncivilised people". He suggested those on death row would be executed tomorrow morning With the use of the word "revenge" being used widely

The pilot was killed a month ago, Jordianian intelligence had picked up blog posts saying he'd been burned. Further evidence if it was required of the callous nature of IS.

Do we underestimate IS? I bloody hope not. It's not so much the weaponry that alarms me, it's the support and finance that they seem to be garnering from somewhere and their appeal to unbelievable amounts of people to whom the bloodlust appeals. Their success to date with such a violent idea is unbelievable - anyone who underestimates them is a fool.

As for their ability to fight against a regular army, yes they have relatively heavy weaponry but in all out war, they would fail pretty quickly - think about the non kinetic stuff that's needed but they haven't developed: logistic chains, intelligence cycles, command and control. It would be a ballsy govt to commit land forces against IS though...

But going toe to toe can only check them in the short term; it's not the weaponry and foot soldiers you need to destroy, it's the idea behind it and that's a whole different ball game...

oldmanmtb - Member

We have some fairly recent historical parallels that can be useful, the indo china and Vietnam wars ...

Ya, but the US was fighting a proxy war there with China and Russia. i.e. the west was fighting proper army there. Even in Korea war who do you think supply all the army?

jimjam - Member

What needs to be done? Educate the public how this group has come about, admit shortcomings/blame in that respect. Arrest, try and convict as many people as possible who were involved in the highly illegal invasion of Iraq which killed untold hundreds of thousands of their citizens and destabilized the region allowing IS to flourish.

Nope. That's like crying over spilled milk again.

Withdraw all support for Israel and publicly denounce their wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Support mmore moderate Islamic nations to combat IS themselves. Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

Will any of this happen? Will it f***. We have far too much tied up the region.

This will not happen because you are being unrealistic. I think you are also contradicting yourself here.

Alpha1653

it's not the weaponry and foot soldiers you need to destroy, it's the idea behind it and that's a whole different ball game...

Exactly. You can't kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

chewkw

Nope. That's like crying over spilled milk again.

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they'll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be "terrorists" as long as the west sticks it's nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

You can't leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

jimjam - Member

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they'll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be "terrorists" as long as the west sticks it's nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

You can't leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to the Israeli people?

Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

The efforts is on their part to integrate with Western European society rather than the other way round. If you move to middle east you need to integrate into their society rather than the other way round. They might tolerate you to some extend but fundamentally you have not much say whatsoever in their way of life. Enter Rome do as the Romans.

jimjam - Member
Exactly. You can't kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to Israeli people?

Well they [i]might[/i] stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

History is a pretty long time. Where shall I start? I suppose [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades ]here[/url] will do.

jimjam - Member
Well they might stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Or Israel will be opened to slaughter by others.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

I bet they realised that but then they have already created the monsters so who else are capable to deal with the monsters now? IMO, they created the monsters then they have to deal with the monsters because they can.

chewkw .

Or Israel will be opened to slaughter by others.

Would you throw rocks at your neighbours house if you knew he had an AK-47?

they created the monsters then they have to deal with the monsters because they can.

Yes but creating more monsters isn't "dealing" with them. There's an old adage, when you are in a hole, stop digging.

jimjam - Member
Would you throw rocks at your neighbours house if you knew he had an AK-47?

Therefore, you are advocating the slaughter of the entire population of Israel?

Yes but creating more monsters isn't "dealing" with them.

Hence, they have to involve now to deal with the mess they created in the first place before it grows even larger. If they still don't act the monsters will consume everyone.

chewkw - Member
"Exactly. You can't kill an ideology with bullets and bombs."

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

Can you reference something that supports that supposition, please? For once.

chewkw

Therefore, you are advocating the slaughter of the entire population of Israel?

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I was implying that Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world and is widely believed to have nuclear weapons. Considering Israel has frequently shown that it has no qualms about indiscriminate slaughter of whole populations to defend itself, any nation state attacking them would be inviting genocide upon themselves. You are the Arab state, throwing rocks at your neighbours window, your neighbour is Israel who will blow your head off with an AK-47 before you try.

If they still don't act the monsters will consume everyone.

No, they'll just become like many other nation states that weren't set up by western governments.

Lifer - Member
Can you reference something that supports that supposition, please? For once.

The Incas ...

jimjam - Member

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I was implying that Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world and is widely believed to have nuclear weapons. Considering Israel has frequently shown that it has no qualms about indiscriminate slaughter of whole populations to defend itself, any nation state attacking them would be inviting genocide upon themselves.

Are you saying that let Israel defend themselves?
Well, I assume they will use their weapons if they under attack so are they wrong if they defend themselves when they perceived themselves to be under attack? Bear in mind, there is no one now to prevent them from using their weapons by the way.

That wasn't bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies.

Lifer - Member

That wasn't bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies.

That depends on how you interpret the demise of the Incas. You might even called it historical biological weapon. I am sure the Spanish weapons played a part in their demise. If the Spanish were not there then they would not have contracted smallpox so why are they there? Something to do with Eldorado is it not? The bottom line is that the Spanish were there and they gain the upper hand with western weapons such as cannon and guns.

Now, another way of achieving their dream of Eldorado was to introduce them another form of belief is it not? To control the people easier which eventually killed of their Incas' belief entirely.

Another example would even be the pagan ideology in the middle east which was completely destroyed over time. I am sure many were forced or face the sword.

In a stand up fight against a western army IS wouldn't stand a chance - assymmetric warfare doesn't work that way though.

I really really don't want to see a person burned alive in a cage - i,m curious why anyone on here would want to?

I strongly suggest anyone commenting on this thread takes the time to watch [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake ]Bitter Lake[/url]...

Failing that, here is a summary:

Al-Qaeda and ISIS are based on wahhabism, [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wahhabism-a-deadly-scripture-398516.html ]which has been actively encouraged and exported by Western allies Saudi Arabia[/url] (you know, the ones we drop our flags for)

Expanding on Bitter Lake:

If you do a bit more research into Saudi links to the arms industry, a good chunk of the media and indeed western intelligence services you'll see that the alliance goes far beyond just oil.

futon river crossing - Member
In a stand up fight against a western army IS wouldn't stand a chance - assymmetric warfare doesn't work that way though.

I agree, especially when there is no forest or support from neighbouring country with billions population.

I really really don't want to see a person burned alive in a cage - i,m curious why anyone on here would want to?

Perhaps they are curious?

jivehoneyjive - Member

If you do a bit more research into Saudi links to the arms industry, a good chunk of the media and indeed western intelligence services you'll see that the alliance goes far beyond just oil.

Of course everyone knows that.

Put it this way would you prefer to have a relationship with the leader of a kingdom that ensures certainty or civilian leader that changes constantly with uncertainty? The latter is simply hard work. Also not forgetting the fact that there are other influences in the region too back up by other superpower(s). What better way to influence the leader of a kingdom in order to defeat the other superpowers eh. Unfortunately, the leader of the kingdom, believing own hype, has started exert his own ideology on the "world" only to find themselves fighting with their own "whiter than white" ideology from their own people.

The example of the Spanish in Latin America must come from an edited post? They are a good example as the dominant group at the time used terror tactics to control their subjects. The Spanish,with their seemingly benign God were welcomed.( yes I know it ended badly) Another problem with IS is that it seems to think its borders extend to include parts of Spain,Italy and India. Can't really let that happen,can we?

It's incredible that this is happening in the 21st Century.
Incredibly sad.

I guess the long term goal should be energy self sufficiency so we don't rely on anything from the Middle East.

Then they'll just be left to their own devices like Africa.

So sad.

The way to stop it would be to switch the internet off, and stop news reporting. Once you remove their audience, what they are doing becomes pointless.

Funkydunc I don't think the is videos are primarily aimed at the west they are intended for more local impact.

To fight IS we should be motivating and enabling their local opponents particularly the Kurds and Jordanians and rather than constantly beheading the dragon cut out it's Saudi Arabian heart and wallet .

I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

What a barbaric way to kill someone. War is war but to do such things to captured unarmed combatants is wrong. Very wrong.

hora

I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

What a barbaric way to kill someone. War is war but to do such things to captured unarmed combatants is wrong. Very wrong.

It's a calculated tactic though Hora. Little more.

I agree it's absolutely horrific, but that's what they are aiming for. I'd say the aftermath of a apache attack helicopter's canon isn't any more pleasant or civilized but people in middle eastern war zones have probably seen that plenty of times.

They are creating these videos as a rallying call to those who would join/support them, an intimidation tactic against those they will fight or seek to control and as a direct affront to their enemies sensibilities.

Agree

I wonder what the long game or tactic is here though. Obviously they want an "Islamic State", but by creating this media frenzy they must surely realise they run a very real risk of drawing the US and UK into war with them.

Do they need this propaganda to get recruits? I can't imagine they do. Do they need to be decapitating people on twitter to intimidate and control people in their controlled areas? Do they actually need the internet for that?

It strikes me that these videos real aim is to stoke up a media frenzy over here to fast track military involvement over there. Do they really want to martyr themselves? Or do their Saudi sponsors want to reinforce their status as a stable dependable source of oil for the west ?

It strikes me that these videos real aim is to stoke up a media frenzy over here to fast track military involvement over there.

Jumping two leaps ahead here but surely the UK/US commanders and Politicians are thinking it'd be total war if they went over- no surrender and capture if caught by the ISIL and anyone caught would/could prove to be a hard captor? It'd be a nightmare to have boots on the ground as Journalists would follow.

Special forces and advisors means they can keep a lid on any related issues?

It certainly seems they have either an ulterior motive,or they have dropped the ball with this one. The anger has,certainly in the short term, shifted away from the Jordanian rulers to them. They have also had other groups condemn the method of killing. If reports are true and the female was hanged this morning,then the propaganda coup of being a protector of women is also lost as well.(Al Q used to demand the release of female terrorists as a matter of importance)

What on earth prompts anyone on here to actively seek out a video they know will show another human, being burnt alive?
You'll be knitting next to the gallows next.

Who says everybody has? I have seen the stills in the papers,but there is no way I will be adding to those animals web traffic.And I can't knit..And that was 200 hundred years ago,so stupid comparison.

hora

Jumping two leaps ahead here but surely the UK/US commanders and Politicians are thinking it'd be total war if they went over- no surrender and capture if caught by the ISIL and anyone caught would/could prove to be a hard captor? It'd be a nightmare to have boots on the ground as Journalists would follow.

Special forces and advisors means they can keep a lid on any related issues?

The way a modern army engages a guerrilla force means taking P.O.W.s isn't a concern. Call in an airstrike, or fire a HEDP into whatever building or vehicle they are taking cover in. Round up who ever is left alive, what's left of them.

It seems that all IS need is the ability to move, and an iphone and they draw out any form of war for decades regardless of who they are fighting.

hora - Member 
I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

Or perhaps to plagiarise "he's like an idiot savant, without the savant bit"

Who says everybody has?

I didn't.

And that was 200 hundred years ago,so stupid comparison

Is there a time limit to highlighting the goulish nature of some people?

They had ti stand by their word. As I said, they didn't have any choice once the pilot was burned.

Its not that many centuries ago that fundamental Christians were burning each other alive.

Islam is 600 years (?) younger than Christianity. Is this just some sort of horrific stage of evolution that Abrahamic religions go through?

The ultimate long-term solution is to deal with the ignorance and poverty that create the environment for these nutters to prosper. I have no idea what the short and medium term solutions to get there would be.

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

duckman - Member

The example of the Spanish in Latin America must come from an edited post? They are a good example as the dominant group at the time used terror tactics to control their subjects.

Not edited. Also happened to other parts of the world but not as extensive as those in S.America.

MoreCashThanDash - Member

...

I have no idea what the short and medium term solutions to get there would be.

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

The short to medium term solutions is to contain the problem to specific regions. Nothing can be done until they run out of steam coz there are only so many people that can intimidate.

Not seen the video whatsoever infact none of all the killings unless they are on youtube. However, youtube has blocked most of the horrific stuff nowadays so I am not risking my pooter just to search for them in case there are malwares embedded.

What I always wonder is the thought of the victims during their dying moment as some were not swift and also thought of the executioner.

I found the reference after I had posted Chewkw.

MoreCashThanDash

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

I've not sought out or seen any of the IS execution videos, but I did seek out the videos of Nick Berg and Ken Bigley being executed. It was a combination of morbid curiosity, along with a weird sense of almost guilt. I was deeply opposed to that war and the bullshit way the news media and government lied to us. I felt that in some sense I owed it to the guys who died to watch their last moments as our governments had gotten them into it. I didn't want to turn away from the reality of what happened to them.

It stuck with me for months afterward, and still does but I'm not sorry I watched. I can understand someone wanting to see the videos.

They're master propagandists. Goebbels would have to take his hat off to this lot. And it works. They rule through fear. Why do you think the Iraqi army all ran off? Do you blame them? Would you hang around? See what happened if they got hold of you.

Doesn't seem to bother the Peshmerga...

The thing about IS and their brutality is that it simply makes no sense to us. Just eighteen months ago, the US was in the process of withdrawing from Iraq and everyone - myself included - was suggesting that the Arab Spring in the middle east was a force of change for good and that sooner or later everything would be better so long as the west stopped dropping bombs.

What happened next seems nihilistic in the extreme to me. While IS has publicly stated that it aims to restore a Caliphate to the middle east and unite Muslims, members of the organisation are behaving in a publicly depraved way that is offensive to the majority of Muslims. Truly, I don't know what happens next...we kidded ourselves that the promise of democracy and trinkets could pacify population that had hitherto been spoonfed fanaticism (eg post nazi Germany and post Imperial Japan). I don't believe that bombing anyone into submission is the answer, yet those who've committed atrocious acts need to be brought to account.

But I can't help feeling that the seeds were sown by the west during the occupation of Iraq.

chewkw - Member

"Lifer - Member

That wasn't bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies."

That depends on how you interpret the demise of the Incas. You might even called it historical biological weapon. I am sure the Spanish weapons played a part in their demise. If the Spanish were not there then they would not have contracted smallpox so why are they there? Something to do with Eldorado is it not? The bottom line is that the Spanish were there and they gain the upper hand with western weapons such as cannon and guns.

Now, another way of achieving their dream of Eldorado was to introduce them another form of belief is it not? To control the people easier which eventually killed of their Incas' belief entirely.

Maybe you should read up on it before using it to back up you assertion. Smallpox reached the Incas before the Spanish. Also where the hell did you get your El Dorado theory from? The BBC soap?

The Spanish would also have been massacred if they didn't have help from tens of thousands of native allies who were the Incan's enemies. Superiority of arms is a red herring.

Another example would even be the pagan ideology in the middle east which was completely destroyed over time. I am sure many were forced or face the sword.

Oh, if [i]you're[/i] sure. You know, with your obvious grasp of history you've already shown.

What were the terror tactics the Spanish used, duckman? And how is that relevant to fighting IS?

The Incas are not similar in anyway. It was a 40 year war of genocide against a population weakened by disease with the purpose of conquest.

If Jordan hung 2 people this morning, that is equally as reprehensible as what IS just did.

If they stated that they would unless they got the pilot back then they left themselves no option.